Mineral wagon axle tiebars

[Richard_A]

I'm building a rake of these and looking at images of 16t mineral wagons I noticed that a lot do not have axle guard tie bars but some do, is there a reason so have them? 

 

I was thinking if its to do with automatic brakes, but I've seen some Images where fitted wagons don't appear to have the tie bars. 

 

I have the three articles on these wagons in modellers backtrack but this doesn't seem to shed light on this either. 

[Southernman46]

Rule of thumb

Unfitted wagons - no tie bars

Wagons fitted with 4 shoe "Morton" brake gear - tie-bars

Wagons fitted with 8-shoe clasp brake gear - no tiebars

 

It's to do with counteracting the effect of the 4 shoe gear pushing the axles apart whilst braking.

[Trainshed Terry]

If I remember the wagons with out tie bars are fitted with 8 brake blocks, and the wagon with tie bars had "Morton bake gear with was 4 brake blocks.

 

Terry.

[Wickham Green too]

Very few of the 16 tonners were built new with pushrod vacuum brakes and tiebars ........... they were a more common feature of the later 10' wheelbase rebuilds from Palbricks.

[Cwmtwrch]

5 minutes ago, Southernman46 said:

Rule of thumb

Unfitted wagons - no tie bars

Wagons fitted with 4 shoe "Morton" brake gear - tie-bars

Wagons fitted with 8-shoe clasp brake gear - no tiebars

 

It's to do with counteracting the effect of the 4 shoe gear pushing the axles apart whilst braking.

Agreed, but there are significant exceptions, albeit not relevant to 16T minerals, as 20T capacity wagons, e.g. 21T minerals,  and heavier, with 4-shoe Morton unfitted brakes had tie bars, for the same reason. Hand brakes were used to immobilise parked wagons, but were also used to add brake force to control unfitted freight trains descending gradients, so hand brake effectiveness mattered.

[Southernman46]

The OT post was about 16t minerals - I wasn't going to muddy the water 😁

[Cwmtwrch]

16 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Very few of the 16 tonners were built new with pushrod vacuum brakes and tiebars ........... they were a more common feature of the later 10' wheelbase rebuilds from Palbricks.

100 for brake trials, which seem subsequently to have been converted to 8-shoe clasp. However, some 5,000 unfitted wagons were converted to 4-shoe Morton VB in 1966-7. The 1975-8 Palbrick rebuilds totalled 394, some of which had clasp brakes. [Source - part 3 of Peter Fidczuk's article in Modellers' BackTrack Vol1, No. 5]

Edited October 6, 2023 by Cwmtwrch

[Richard_A]

Thank you everyone, glad I'm mainly interested in the Swansea area and as far as I can tell most of the wagons are unfitted, but I'm sure I'll be caught out. 

[Fat Controller]

49 minutes ago, rka said:

Thank you everyone, glad I'm mainly interested in the Swansea area and as far as I can tell most of the wagons are unfitted, but I'm sure I'll be caught out. 

From personal observation of wagons in the Swansea area (I was brought up a few hundred yards from the Llanelly and Mynydd Mawr, and spent 3 months doing a daily census of wagons at BSC Landore in 1974), I'd say that fitted minerals were confined to house coal flows. Shipping coal, and that for electricity generation, was carried mainly in 21t unfitted minerals, with a leaven of 16 tonners . One oddity I noted was a 16-tonner  with 8-shoe brake gear, but no vacuum cylinder.

[Richard_A]

20 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

From personal observation of wagons in the Swansea area (I was brought up a few hundred yards from the Llanelly and Mynydd Mawr, and spent 3 months doing a daily census of wagons at BSC Landore in 1974), I'd say that fitted minerals were confined to house coal flows. Shipping coal, and that for electricity generation, was carried mainly in 21t unfitted minerals, with a leaven of 16 tonners . One oddity I noted was a 16-tonner  with 8-shoe brake gear, but no vacuum cylinder.

Thank you, how many house coal depots were in the Swansea area,? 

[The Stationmaster]

28 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

From personal observation of wagons in the Swansea area (I was brought up a few hundred yards from the Llanelly and Mynydd Mawr, and spent 3 months doing a daily census of wagons at BSC Landore in 1974), I'd say that fitted minerals were confined to house coal flows. Shipping coal, and that for electricity generation, was carried mainly in 21t unfitted minerals, with a leaven of 16 tonners . One oddity I noted was a 16-tonner  with 8-shoe brake gear, but no vacuum cylinder.

Generally the shipping tips at South Wales docks could not take fitted wagons.  Hence the fnal survival of a single unfitted wagon fow into the 1990s long after the WR had gone fully fitted for freight and engineers' trains.

[Wickham Green too]

.... and when Dai Woodham had finished with those it was finally time to reappraise ( what remained of ) his yard full of steam locos !

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

.... and when Dai Woodham had finished with those it was finally time to reappraise ( what remained of ) his yard full of steam locos !

 

He had retired well before then!

 

Last loco scrapped by Woodhams was in 1980. By the mid 1980s there was hardly anything there. Dates they left here.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/saved-from-barry/

 

Last loco sold left in 1990 with the last ten being gifted to the Vale Of Glamorgan and most of those ten have since left or been dismantled. 

 

 

Jason

[Fat Controller]

4 hours ago, rka said:

Thank you, how many house coal depots were in the Swansea area,? 

Into the 1970s, there were at least half-a-dozen; by  the ime of the 1980s Miners' Strike, this had come down to one at Swansea Eastern Depot, which fed the sites of some of the others by road. 

The depots I remember from the earlier part of the period included Burry Port, Llanelli, Gorseinon, Felin Fran, Morriston.

[Richard_A]

27 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Into the 1970s, there were at least half-a-dozen; by  the ime of the 1980s Miners' Strike, this had come down to one at Swansea Eastern Depot, which fed the sites of some of the others by road. 

The depots I remember from the earlier part of the period included Burry Port, Llanelli, Gorseinon, Felin Fran, Morriston.

Thank you, and these might have used fitted wagons? 

 

I'll have to look through my books aswell. 

[Richard_A]

What types of industry would make use of vans? 

 

I've finally decided that the Swansea area is my main interest so before I dispose of kits etc I'd like to make sure I won't need to buy anything I sell. 

 

I don't think I could build enough mineral wagons ever though. 

 

Would mannesman tube works near Landore used the railway for transporting products? 

[Stoke West]

37 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Into the 1970s, there were at least half-a-dozen; by  the ime of the 1980s Miners' Strike, this had come down to one at Swansea Eastern Depot, which fed the sites of some of the others by road. 

The depots I remember from the earlier part of the period included Burry Port, Llanelli, Gorseinon, Felin Fran, Morriston

Neath closer than Llanelli , serviced by the Briton Ferry pilot , also Ammanford  on the GCG line along with landsales in MDO's at Wernos washery  . Briton Ferry was the home of shocvans for the tinplate trade 

[Fat Controller]

20 minutes ago, rka said:

Thank you, and these might have used fitted wagons? 

 

I'll have to look through my books aswell. 

They would, alomgside unfitted ones.

Vans: the main traffic for vans was tinplate, normally conveyed in Shoc-vans. This was from the works at Velindre and Trostre to the the docks at Swansea, warehouses around Swansea docks and Metal Box factories nationwide. Mannesman was on the site of BSC Landore, I believe. Not sure when it closed, but can't recollect anything bearing the name by the 1970s . The old names lingered on; old hands would refer to Landore as 'Siemens', despite the plant having been confiscated at the outbreak of WW1 from the German firm that owned it.

Out of interest, what period are you modelling?

[Richard_A]

32 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

They would, alomgside unfitted ones.

Vans: the main traffic for vans was tinplate, normally conveyed in Shoc-vans. This was from the works at Velindre and Trostre to the the docks at Swansea, warehouses around Swansea docks and Metal Box factories nationwide. Mannesman was on the site of BSC Landore, I believe. Not sure when it closed, but can't recollect anything bearing the name by the 1970s . The old names lingered on; old hands would refer to Landore as 'Siemens', despite the plant having been confiscated at the outbreak of WW1 from the German firm that owned it.

Out of interest, what period are you modelling?

Hi Brian, 

 

I'm mainly interested in the late 60's and early 70's 

[hmrspaul]

When did the Fords engines begin manufacture, lots of vans on that traffic, admittedly not standard 12tonners

 

Paul

[Cwmtwrch]

3 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Vans: the main traffic for vans was tinplate, normally conveyed in Shoc-vans. This was from the works at Velindre and Trostre to the the docks at Swansea, warehouses around Swansea docks and Metal Box factories nationwide.

There was inbound traffic as well, as the steel for plating came from Port Talbot as hot rolled coils in 42T bogie wagons. I doubt that they will be produced in model form though, somehow, but you never know these days...

[Wickham Green too]

... I'm sure with DCC you could have your coils heated ! 😊

[Artless Bodger]

Probably a bit too early ('63) and outside the area of your interests, but a lovely photo here, of a 72xx on clasp braked minerals used for steel coil traffic at Llanharan.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/46539176721

 

[br2975]

5 hours ago, rka said:

What types of industry would make use of vans? 

.

The predominant industry using vans in south west Wales was, as mentioned, the tinplate industry.

.

However, the tinplate industry mainly used 'Shocvans' and invariably in large numbers, almost block trains.

.

From the late 1960s, with freight workings in south Wales being reorganised, all empty Shocvans entering south Wales were to be directed to Briton Ferry, from where they were distributed to the remaining tinplate works, and warehouses, as required.

.

Oridnary 12 ton 'Vanfits' would be used for general traffic.

.

.

Have you considered joining the Facebook Group "Railways in South Wales" (shameless plug) ?.

.

There are any number of knowledgeable members who could assist with your research, and a veritable goldmine of photos. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by br2975

[Fat Controller]

5 hours ago, rka said:

Hi Brian, 

 

I'm mainly interested in the late 60's and early 70's 

My train-spotting days....