Big 4 sheds that could have a roundhouse/inner turntable set up instead of roads runthough the shed?

[OnTheBranchline]

I have the book "An Historical Survey of Great Engine Western Sheds 1947" by E.Lyons and the one thing I noticed that out of the 100+ engine sheds that the GWR had, only about 16-17 had roundhouses/inner turntables. The two surprising ones that don't are Oxford and Chester and even Bristol Bath Road (but Bristol St. Philips Marsh does 🤔). Is there any reason why some sheds would have this set up of just have shed roads and external turntable vs having it inside? It looks like quite a number of Welsh sheds were built with internal roundhouses.

 

I have this discussion up to the other Big 4 companies as well.

[Edge]

Economics probably. You take up less land with a turntable feeding a multiple road through shed than you do with a roundhouse with an internal turntable. I’d also imagine that maintenance would be much higher for a roundhouse as the building itself is much bigger and would have to be built to stand the forces/vibration etc. of turntable operation.

 

Don’t know for sure, but if you guess ‘economy’ with basically any railway question, you stand a half decent chance of being right :) 

[Steamport Southport]

It might also be date built as well, I believe that roundhouses fell out of favour about the turn of the century, the same era that most small sheds lost their turntables.

 

Many sheds such as Didcot built in 1932 were straight. But ISTR it replaced an earlier shed which originated from broad gauge days that did originally have turntables inside.

 

Leamington Spa 1906 was straight with outside turntable.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls2165.htm

 

Looking at Chester (West) I'm getting an opening date of 1856, so I assume that the one there in BR days wasn't the original shed.

 

 

Jason

[The Stationmaster]

As noted - very much a date thing.  The large running sheds built in the Churchward era - a time of considerable modernisation of loco facilities - were large buildings with internal turntables.  But the lesser sheds built in that period were straight sheds and the turntable was elsewhere on the site.  In some cases site constraints probably played apart but cost also must have also been important as the sheds with internal turntables generally cost more because they needed a much larger building.

 

Andolder sheds which had internal turntables were sometimes altered to straight sheds ot r, as mentioned above were replaced by straight sheds.  Reading - a Dean era shed - originally had an internal turntable but was converted to a straight shed - presumably driven as much as anything by the increasing size of the engines using it.

 

Bath Road was one constrained very much by its site and was in any case a post Churchward re-development by which time interna; turntables were really a thing of the past in new construction.  Oxford and Chester both traced their origins back to the 1850s and neither was rebuilt in Churchwards time - in fact the original mixed  gauge wooden shed building at Oxford survived until closure of the depot to steam traction.  In both of these cases the sites were heavily constrained.  Even if Oxford had been rebuilt in Churchward\s time it would probably have only got a straight shed anyway.

 

The problem with roundouses and the GWr's use of internal turntables is that everything works well until the turntable, or one of them at larger sheds, fails, or needs maintenance or is damaged by derailment because then everything it feeds is blocked and that means that engines are forcibly out of use. Having in diesel days managed a depot which relied on a turntable for its whole pattern of working it was a right nuisance when that turntable was defective, even if locos wren't trapped on the radial roads.

[Wickham Green too]

Of course 'square roundhouses' only work well if you have an appropriate mix of different-length locomotives that can be shuffled onto suitable tracks - or, as they probably were in the early years, when all your locos are small !

[Steamport Southport]

9 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Of course 'square roundhouses' only work well if you have an appropriate mix of different-length locomotives that can be shuffled onto suitable tracks - or, as they probably were in the early years, when all your locos are small !

 

Barrow Hill doesn't have a problem fitting mainline diesels and electrics, and that was the railway that only built small engines....

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Steamport Southport

[Michael Hodgson]

Historically a lot of turntables were suitable for small engines and had to be replaced with larger tables otherwise the later main line locos ended up running tender first.  Replacement would have been much easier (and cheaper) outside in a big yard than inside a build where the confines of the existing structure were an issue.  Land cost in the UK was perhaps a bigger factor in UK practice than on the continent where roundhouses seem to have been more popular. 

 

Even so, there were a few places on the continent where space/structures caused probelms with introduction of ever longer locos.  There were examples of turntables to which they added a sort of sector plate in an arc round the edge of the existing table to enable longer locos to be moved although not the full 360 degrees.  And even cases of overlapping (intersecting) turntables

[Steamport Southport]

However the turntable in a shed wasn't used for turning locomotives. Just to store them.

 

Engines in anything more than very light steam were banned from engine sheds. Certainly nothing with a fire in it's firebox was going in there apart from maybe a pilot which would also be in light steam. They would have dropped the fire outside.

 

Engines in steam stayed outside.

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green too]

55 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

... Certainly nothing with a fire in it's firebox was going in there apart from maybe a pilot which would also be in light steam. They would have dropped the fire outside. ...

Did ALL roundhouse sheds have alternative - outdoor - means of turning locos ?

Did no roundhouse sheds have smoke hoods ?

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Did ALL roundhouse sheds have alternative - outdoor - means of turning locos ?

Did no roundhouse sheds have smoke hoods ?

 

 

Usually yes. Most roundhouses would be in major towns and cities. Often plenty of places to turn locomotives. You wouldn't be taking an engine into the shed to turn it.

 

Smoke hoods? For smoke yes, that's for when lighting up dead engines, often after repairs.

 

Engines in steam were banned from going into sheds as they tended to burn down. Same as good sheds.

 

I can't find the photos but there was about a dozen locomotives inside when Preston burnt down.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rpsmithbarney/5952577489

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rpsmithbarney/5956637942

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green too]

What do they say ? ...... "There's no smoke without fire in the firebox" ! 🙄

[JimC]

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Usually yes. Most roundhouses would be in major towns and cities. Often plenty of places to turn locomotives. You wouldn't be taking an engine into the shed to turn it.

Running through Lyons quickly, the only GW turntable sheds with a separate turntable were Wolverhampton Stafford road  and Cardiff Canton, both of which had considerable straight road accommodation as well as the turntable shed. However the vast majority of straight road sheds of any size did have turntables.

 

I know nothing about facilities on other lines, but as was said above, economy. It's hard to believe that GWR policy was to turn locomotives off site at the biggest sheds and on site at smaller ones. Off hand the only example of a turntable not associated with a shed that I can think of is Ranelagh, which is a special case. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by JimC

[Jeremy Cumberland]

10 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

It might also be date built as well, I believe that roundhouses fell out of favour about the turn of the century, the same era that most small sheds lost their turntables.

Oxley was built in 1907, with two turntables inside a rectangular shed. Here's a photograph when it was just completed. In answer to another question, yes, roundhouses did have smoke hoods:

 

7 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Did ALL roundhouse sheds have alternative - outdoor - means of turning locos ?

Oxley didn't, as far as I know. The only nearby turntable appears to have been Stafford Road shed [Edit: as mentioned by JimC above].

Edited October 8, 2023 by Jeremy Cumberland

[Jeremy Cumberland]

32 minutes ago, JimC said:

Off hand the only example of a turntable not associated with a shed that I can think of is Ranelagh, which is a special case. 

Kingswear?

[Fat Controller]

36 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Kingswear?

There was one on the line to North Dock at Swansea High St I believe.

[JimC]

10 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Kingswear?

Good point. Were there any servicing facilities at all at Kingswear? You'd think they would want to do a bit more than just turn locomotives coming off through trains from wherever. 

[Nick Gough]

There was a turntable at Birmingham Snow Hill.

[Wickham Green too]

11 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Oxley didn't, as far as I know. ...

I can only think of one enclosed square roundhouse on the Southern - the joint LBSCR/LSWR depot at Fratton ........ this had no outdoor turntable but anything that wouldn't fit on the 50' indoor one could turn on the Farlington Junction ( etc.) triangle three miles to the north - traffic permitting.

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, JimC said:

Running through Lyons quickly, the only GW turntable sheds with a separate turntable were Wolverhampton Stafford road  and Cardiff Canton, both of which had considerable straight road accommodation as well as the turntable shed. However the vast majority of straight road sheds of any size did have turntables.

 

I know nothing about facilities on other lines, but as was said above, economy. It's hard to believe that GWR policy was to turn locomotives off site at the biggest sheds and on site at smaller ones. Off hand the only example of a turntable not associated with a shed that I can think of is Ranelagh, which is a special case. 

And here's a link to a photo of Old Oak Common - where the only engine turntables were in the shed (there was another turntable in teh apssenger yard but that was not there to turn engine which were going on or off shed)

.

https://railphotoprints.uk/p683721011/h55A868AC#h55a868ac

 

And of course there were plenty of places where engien s were stabled overnigght with a fire in them although it had invariab;ly been cleaned before going on shed.  And full steam was equally invariably raised where the engine was still in the shed because as pressure had dropped overnight it wouldn't otherwise have been possible to move the engine.  Exactly the same would happen in a shed like OLd Oak, and elsewhere of course, where the engine had to be lit up and steam raised before it could move out of the shed.

 

I can' t remember visiting any steam shed where the roof wasn't black with soot etc indicating that engines had been, or were, in that shed with a fire in them.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, JimC said:

Good point. Were there any servicing facilities at all at Kingswear? You'd think they would want to do a bit more than just turn locomotives coming off through trains from wherever. 

Kingswear had a turntable and at least one pit although I'm not sure without trying to find photos on line if it was a prep pit (which I 'd expect) or an ash pit.  

 

Henley-On-Thames had a turntable with radial stabling roads and they had prep pits (all provided for special traffic) plus the turntable for regular working.

[Compound2632]

22 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

However the turntable in a shed wasn't used for turning locomotives. Just to store them.

 

Except that, I'm sure, one would arrange to leave the shed facing the right way round for the next turn.

 

The Midland built square roundhouses from the 1860s - substantial brick buildings, a number of which survive in industrial use, plus of course Barrow Hill. Apart from a few later ones, these started out with 42 ft turntables as standard - big enough for any Midland 0-6-0 or 2-4-0. Fortunately, the internal roof pillars were spaced sufficiently to enable larger turntables up to 55 ft to be fitted - big enough for the 10-wheelers of LMS and BR days.

 

A good number of these sheds had no outdoor turntable. 

 

Ref. C. Hawkins & G. Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1981)

Edited October 9, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

In contrast to the Midland, the other major pre-Grouping company, the London & North Western, was firmly in the straight shed camp, a standard design with northlight roof having been developed under F.W. Webb's superintendency.

[The Stationmaster]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Except that, I'm sure, one would arrange to leave the shed facing the right way round for the next turn.

 

 

Usual practice at western sheds - even with tank engines - seems to have been to have somokebox end towards the tirntable and the smoke hoods were of course arranged that way round as well as the photos above show.

 

Thus at somewhere like Old Oak a tender engne would normally arrive tender first and would then be turned to the appropriate road where it would stabled - which could well involve turning it.  When the engine went off shed for most jobs it would have to leave tender first so depending which road it had been stabled on it might have to be as near completely turned, once again, before leaving the shed.

[Wickham Green too]

17 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

... steam was equally invariably raised where the engine was still in the shed because as pressure had dropped overnight it wouldn't otherwise have been possible to move the engine. ...

I don't know whether any British sheds had capstans for moving dead - or near-dead - locos ??!?

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, The Stationmaster said:

Thus at somewhere like Old Oak a tender engne would normally arrive tender first and would then be turned to the appropriate road where it would stabled - which could well involve turning it.  When the engine went off shed for most jobs it would have to leave tender first so depending which road it had been stabled on it might have to be as near completely turned, once again, before leaving the shed.

 

Entirely logical as I suppose most light engine movements were of engines arrived on up trains at Paddington or going to Paddington to take out a down train.

 

3 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Usual practice at western sheds - even with tank engines - seems to have been to have somokebox end towards the tirntable and the smoke hoods were of course arranged that way round as well as the photos above show.

 

Of course - so that it is easy for the crew to find their engine, by the smokebox numberplate or the bufferbeam number.