Wiring A DCC Layout Utilizing Peco Electrofrog Points

[CallingAtGreatDestinations]

Hello all, I have been working away at a layout idea for quite a while, and I have having trouble understanding the electrofrog wiring. This is the layout below: 

 

I have read through Brian Lambert's electrical webpage, but I am still confused as to where I should wire in the power sources/where I should install isolating fishplates. I have modified the points based on the Dean Park tutorial (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et3vuedbZ98), and so this slightly complicates things. I would greatly appreciate some advice regarding this process, as I am excited to get trains running finally.

[Pete the Elaner]

Isolate the 2 inside rails after the frog (vee). Re-feed after each point.

By making each section as small as possible, you eliminate feeds coming from the wrong direction.

 

There are lots of advantages:

If you need to join 2 small sections, you can easily do it below the board.

If you need to separate a section into 2 smaller ones you need to rip up some track, which is a problem if you have ballasted it.

Copper wire is a better conductor than Nickel Silver rail (NS is used because it stays relatively clean).

Fishplates are a weakness, especially when the rails have been painted & the track has been ballasted with watered down glue. 

Lots of small sections is very scaleable: Apart from more sections, bigger layouts are no more complicated.

 

The disadvantage:

You have lots of rail feeds & lots of sections, which take longer to connect.

 

I always dread it when somebody at the club (or contacting us) when somebody asks someone to troubleshoot their electrics because everyone leaves muggins to respond out of courtesy & you can guarantee they have used the minimum number of insulating joiners possible (sometimes none), leaving the track fed from a weird place.

[brossard]

For DCC, the fundamental best practice, as I think Pete was saying, is to drop wires through the layout top and connect to a power buss.  This needs to be done for EVERY piece of track.  Rail joiners should only be used for rail alignment and should not be relied on for power conduction.

 

For turnouts, it is pretty simple but there may be prepwork.  It's been a while since I looked at a Peco 00 turnout, but you need to be sure to isolate the "frog" from the rest of the turnout.  There may be jumper wires underneath that will have to be removed.

 

 

I made the two turnouts with brown timbers myself.  The middle one is 0 gauge Peco, but modified.  The wiring is simple, connect your droppers* to the stock rails as if they were regular track.  That is your power feed.  Add a jumper wire from the stock rail to the closure rails (which are connected to the blades).  Ensure that the "frog" (the rails with "knees" and a vee) is isolated with insulated rail joiners**.  Connect a common wire to this.  The vee rails need to be isolated from the rails beyond.  The rail ends nearest the camera get metal rail joiners.

 

You will need a means to switch polarity when the turnout is switched.  I use Tortoise for switching and polarity change.

 

Here's my simplest board wiring:

 

 

Not to worry, a lot of the wires (red/black) are for lamps.  I use the plastic screw connectors for modularity and to aid with trouble shooting.  Power buss is at the top and bronze coloured speaker wire (18 gauge).  The wires coming off the buss are 22 gauge.  Tortoise in the middle.

 

BTW, I hope you are going to make your layout modular so that the boards can be laid on their side for wiring.  Trying to work under a layout is a prelude to h*ll.

 

HTH

 

John

 

*Best if a convention is used.  I use green/black for DCC power and Red for common.

** I have seen the DCC Concepts legacy insulated rail joiners and they are very nice and unobtrusive.  Peco's are quite clunky.

Edited October 10, 2023 by brossard

[Oldddudders]

Best practice, as the other guys have intimated, on DC or DCC layouts, is to have a soldered feed to every piece of rail. Those feeds then drop (hence the term droppers) down below the baseboard to a busline - basically like a water pipe with feeds to individual taps. As said, every Peco live-frog point needs modifying as per the Peco leaflet, cutting wired connections as shown and wiring across between the pairs of rails - Peco have thoughtfully left off plastic where you need to bridge. And, most importantly, use insulated joiners on both outer ends of the frog. 

 

You then need to power the frog, which you have isolated from all other rails. This can be done with a simple single-pole two-position switch, with a Frog-juicer electronic switch, or if the point is powered, using the switch motor. Tortoise motors come with useful free contacts for this.

 

As John says, wiring underneath a baseboard is character-forming. Ask me how I know. The men in white suits are due any day....

[Harlequin]

Here you go. Feeding each separate section of track and turnout, as discussed above:

 

 

 

If you have lengths of plain track with metal joiners then add extra feeds for each of them.

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Harlequin

[CallingAtGreatDestinations]

I just wanted to thank everyone for your replies! I appreciate your valuable knowledge, especially due to my lack of understanding in this field.

For the Bus wire, what steps should I take after it has terminated at the end of the board? This is the clearest image that I have seen of the ends in a video, but I am not quite sure as to how I should implement it into my layout. Should these two wires be left separate or do they convene? I am using 14 gauge wire for my Bus and 16 gauge for my feeders.

As for connecting the bus wire to a power source, I am currently using the Bachmann EZ command controller, which is not ideal. How would you all recommend that I connect this wire (controller -> track) to the bus wire? Should I just clip the end box off and solder to the bus accordingly? 

Please let me know.

[AndrueC]

On 10/10/2023 at 08:25, Oldddudders said:

As John says, wiring underneath a baseboard is character-forming. Ask me how I know. The men in white suits are due any day....

The important thing is to keep it tidy.

 

But yeah consistency is key. Dropper from outer fixed rails. Dropper from frog power source depends turnout controller should provide. Insulated joiners on frog rails. Job's a good 'un.

Edited October 22, 2023 by AndrueC

[brossard]

I don't think you've told or shown us your track plan.  Is it just one board or several?  Refer to my picture above for clues on wiring up the bus.

 

John

[CallingAtGreatDestinations]

This is the layout of the two boards at the top of the image. The layout follows the contour of the walls. The fiddle yard will be using hand-operated insulfrog points, so I am not concerned about the wiring there.



I am mainly concerned with how I should wire the bus up to my particular controller and how I should terminate the two bus wires.

[brossard]

6 minutes ago, CallingAtGreatDestinations said:

This is the layout of the two boards at the top of the image. The layout follows the contour of the walls. The fiddle yard will be using hand-operated insulfrog points, so I am not concerned about the wiring there.



I am mainly concerned with how I should wire the bus up to my particular controller and how I should terminate the two bus wires.

 

Terminate the buss wires on each board to connectors that will carry the power from one board to the next.  Then follow the instructions of your system to connect the buss wires to it.  Should be something like "Track Power".  My system is NCE smart booster so I don't know anything about yours.

 

Here's a picture of the board above before all the detail wiring was done:

 

 

You can see the droppers terminating at screw terminals.  The bus is copper coloured speaker wire and connected by screw terminal to a connector that goes to the next board.  I use a lot of screw terminals because they let me keep the wiring tidy and I don't lose track.

 

Since this picture was taken there have been a number of changes and mods to the board, evidenced by the picture above..

 

John

[n9]

Somewhat related, but I'm going to mention Wago connectors because I bought a bucket or two of them on Amazon a few weeks ago and haven't looked back. Mainly because I've found them invaluable for playing around with all of my connections - I can chop and change these around with ease (no soldering or screws) knowing that any configuration I end up with is amply solid enough for it to become my final permanent solution - even though I can then just as easily change it all up again.

 

At the moment I'm testing two stretches of track that I've laid, and I've used the Wagos to temporarily connect their droppers to a very temporary bus. (Essentially the droppers currently just hang vertically, and in between them I've connected stretches of a gauge that's too narrow for my final bus but that is okay for testing.)

 

Only doing that helps me to visualise and plan where everything should end up once final, and I can clearly see the route of my bus.

 

A secondary benefit, at this stage for me at least, is that since I don't have my point motors installed yet, and I have removed the point springs, I can very easily change the frog polarities with the Wagos so I can thoroughly test every route. (I prop the point blades in position with sleepers/weights/whatever is to hand.)

 

Needless to say, if you want to leave your bus ends connectable in the future, the Wagos will make that a doddle too.

 

But the main point is they'll let you easily experiment in all sorts of ways, which is what I've found particularly useful about them as I go about my first real stab at a "proper" wiring job. And even if for some reason you don't want Wagos in there when you're done, I think you can replace them and your tests will have still been of value.

 

That's my two cents anyway.

[brossard]

5 hours ago, n9 said:

Somewhat related, but I'm going to mention Wago connectors because I bought a bucket or two of them on Amazon a few weeks ago and haven't looked back. Mainly because I've found them invaluable for playing around with all of my connections - I can chop and change these around with ease (no soldering or screws) knowing that any configuration I end up with is amply solid enough for it to become my final permanent solution - even though I can then just as easily change it all up again.

 

At the moment I'm testing two stretches of track that I've laid, and I've used the Wagos to temporarily connect their droppers to a very temporary bus. (Essentially the droppers currently just hang vertically, and in between them I've connected stretches of a gauge that's too narrow for my final bus but that is okay for testing.)

 

Only doing that helps me to visualise and plan where everything should end up once final, and I can clearly see the route of my bus.

 

A secondary benefit, at this stage for me at least, is that since I don't have my point motors installed yet, and I have removed the point springs, I can very easily change the frog polarities with the Wagos so I can thoroughly test every route. (I prop the point blades in position with sleepers/weights/whatever is to hand.)

 

Needless to say, if you want to leave your bus ends connectable in the future, the Wagos will make that a doddle too.

 

But the main point is they'll let you easily experiment in all sorts of ways, which is what I've found particularly useful about them as I go about my first real stab at a "proper" wiring job. And even if for some reason you don't want Wagos in there when you're done, I think you can replace them and your tests will have still been of value.

 

That's my two cents anyway.

 

Good to know, I had never heard of them.

 

https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=wago+connectors&crid=2Z8VJ5E3NT7BI&sprefix=wago+connectors%2Caps%2C88&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

 

I got some automotive connectors from Amazon for connecting the boards of my layout.  The 2 pin connectors are factory assembled and work fine.  The 4 pin connectors require the user to assemble and that is not straightforward.  Those I made were not reliable, probably due my mistakes, so they got ditched.

 

I finally got some factory assembled four pin connectors from an electronics store which seem to be great.

 

John

[n9]

11 hours ago, brossard said:

 

Good to know, I had never heard of them.

 

https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=wago+connectors&crid=2Z8VJ5E3NT7BI&sprefix=wago+connectors%2Caps%2C88&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

 

Yes, that link shows them, although I don't see the buckets I was referring to, perhaps because that's Amazon Canada and not UK. It's the 221s I use (haven't tried the 222s) and they accept a bunch of different wire gauges, either stranded or solid core, and can take something like a whopping 32 amps. They also have a very handy test slot in the back, so you can poke a probe in there to test continuity without disturbing any connections (or electrocuting yourself if you decide to use them around the home, which you can do.)

 

 

In case it's helpful (I don't really know!) the following has been my convention so far for testing track with no point motors/switching fitted. But I will say that getting this sort of wiring done, actually helped visualise how and why frogs need switching and when, even on double slips. Maybe the OP will find it useful too.

 

(The Wago buckets come with 2, 3, and 5 terminal connectors, but you could apply this any other type of connector that electrically joins whatever you plug into it.)

 

For points, I stick a 3-terminal connector on each dropper feed (usually red or black); terminal 1 for the feed, terminal 2 for switching the frog (usually green) into it as needed, terminal 3 for daisy chaining the bus wire that corresponds to the feed (red or black) - (at least for testing) I've found each terminal can take more than one wire, so bus in and out always go into the last terminal.

 

For slips (or crossings) I use the 5-terminal; pretty much the same as for points, one per dropper feed (red or black). Feed goes in terminal 1, terminals 2 and 3 for frogs (green) since there are 2 frogs that might need switching to the same feed, terminal 4 is just spare, and as before I daisy chain the corresponding bus wire (red or black) into termial 5.

 

For regular track droppers, I bunch them (within reason) into the 2-terminal connectors. Feed(s) (either red or black) go in terminal 1, and terminal 2 carries the daisy-chained bus wire as before.

 

After that, I just take the ends of my daisy chained bus wires (one red, one black) and connect that to my controller (I have DC and DCC kit and just swap between them.) I put some basic jacks on the end so I can just plug each controller in easily.

 

EDIT: Maybe this isn't obvious to the OP either. For points, and sticking with my red and black colours: If your point is set against the red rail, the frog needs to be plugged into the connector that has the red dropper in it. If your point is set against the black rail, your frog needs to be plugged into the connector that has the black dropper in it.

Edited October 24, 2023 by n9

[brossard]

3 hours ago, n9 said:

Yes, that link shows them, although I don't see the buckets I was referring to, perhaps because that's Amazon Canada and not UK. It's the 221s I use (haven't tried the 222s) and they accept a bunch of different wire gauges, either stranded or solid core, and can take something like a whopping 32 amps. They also have a very handy test slot in the back, so you can poke a probe in there to test continuity without disturbing any connections (or electrocuting yourself if you decide to use them around the home, which you can do.)

 

 

In case it's helpful (I don't really know!) the following has been my convention so far for testing track with no point motors/switching fitted. But I will say that getting this sort of wiring done, actually helped visualise how and why frogs need switching and when, even on double slips. Maybe the OP will find it useful too.

 

(The Wago buckets come with 2, 3, and 5 terminal connectors, but you could apply this any other type of connector that electrically joins whatever you plug into it.)

 

For points, I stick a 3-terminal connector on each dropper feed (usually red or black); terminal 1 for the feed, terminal 2 for switching the frog (usually green) into it as needed, terminal 3 for daisy chaining the bus wire that corresponds to the feed (red or black) - (at least for testing) I've found each terminal can take more than one wire, so bus in and out always go into the last terminal.

 

For slips (or crossings) I use the 5-terminal; pretty much the same as for points, one per dropper feed (red or black). Feed goes in terminal 1, terminals 2 and 3 for frogs (green) since there are 2 frogs that might need switching to the same feed, terminal 4 is just spare, and as before I daisy chain the corresponding bus wire (red or black) into termial 5.

 

For regular track droppers, I bunch them (within reason) into the 2-terminal connectors. Feed(s) (either red or black) go in terminal 1, and terminal 2 carries the daisy-chained bus wire as before.

 

After that, I just take the ends of my daisy chained bus wires (one red, one black) and connect that to my controller (I have DC and DCC kit and just swap between them.) I put some basic jacks on the end so I can just plug each controller in easily.

 

EDIT: Maybe this isn't obvious to the OP either. For points, and sticking with my red and black colours: If your point is set against the red rail, the frog needs to be plugged into the connector that has the red dropper in it. If your point is set against the black rail, your frog needs to be plugged into the connector that has the black dropper in it.

 

All interesting stuff and likely useful to those in the throes of building a layout.  As for me, it's too late.  You will have seen the pictures and my method is old school (I've had the choc blocks for literally decades).  I just spent several weeks refurbishing wiring among other things with the goal of making the layout more reliable and speeding up erection at shows.

 

Perhaps if I do another layout these Wagos may come in handy.

 

John

Edited October 24, 2023 by brossard

[n9]

5 hours ago, brossard said:

 

All interesting stuff and likely useful to those in the throes of building a layout.  As for me, it's too late.  You will have seen the pictures and my method is old school (I've had the choc blocks for literally decades).  I just spent several weeks refurbishing wiring among other things with the goal of making the layout more reliable and speeding up erection at shows.

 

Perhaps if I do another layout these Wagos may come in handy.

 

John

Thanks! Does sound like they might have been useful to you a few weeks ago! I also bought a bunch of those "old school" chocolate blocks before I discovered the Wagos. And also this kind:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/JINXIAN-Position-Terminal-Connectors-Pre-Insulated/dp/B0BF54QGC9/

 

The latter also have the benefit of being able to electrically join whatever you plug into them.

 

Although I very much prefer the Wagos due to their simplicity and flexibility, both may yet come in handy as I progress.

[brossard]

Such a lot of choices, hard to know what's best.  Actually, I needed the Wagos years ago.

 

The ones you posted look like they could be useful.

 

Amazon is a wonderful place, great choice, good prices, free shipping and often delivery the next day.  There isn't much the brick and mortar places can offer to compete.  A shame really.

 

John

[AndrueC]

On my layout I used suitcase connectors to attach droppers to the bus. They are pretty easy to use but do require a little care. In particular making sure that the dropper is fully home before pushing the cutter down and then ensuring that the cutter is all the way down (the flap won't clip shut unless it is).

 

Unfortunately their ease of use is also their downside. It encourages you to just slap 'em on where you want leading to a bit of an untidy mess. You also can't just unclip them because they cut the insulation of the through wire (the bus in this case). I have a couple of empty ones under my layout where the dropper wasn't fully home and fell out. I can't remove them or at least if I did I'd then have to wrap insulation around the bus wire so no point.

 

That's actually an issue with DCC Concepts kit which I've used heavily. Not requiring soldering or wire prep is great but it means you're relying on standard wire lengths and a lot of the time that leaves slack wires hanging around. It also means you tend not to care about routing - you just want the wire to go from socket A to socket B so stuff it in whichever way achieves that.

Edited October 24, 2023 by AndrueC

[brossard]

28 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

On my layout I used suitcase connectors to attach droppers to the bus. They are pretty easy to use but do require a little care. In particular making sure that the dropper is fully home before pushing the cutter down and then ensuring that the cutter is all the way down (the flap won't clip shut unless it is).

 

Unfortunately their ease of use is also their downside. It encourages you to just slap 'em on where you want leading to a bit of an untidy mess. You also can't just unclip them because they cut the insulation of the through wire (the bus in this case). I have a couple of empty ones under my layout where the dropper wasn't fully home and fell out. I can't remove them or at least if I did I'd then have to wrap insulation around the bus wire so no point.

 

That's actually an issue with DCC Concepts kit which I've used heavily. Not requiring soldering or wire prep is great but it means you're relying on standard wire lengths and a lot of the time that leaves slack wires hanging around. It also means you tend not to care about routing - you just want the wire to go from socket A to socket B so stuff it in whichever way achieves that.

 

I have no experience with these suitcase connectors.  Using the screw terminals (pictured) is also easy and doesn't require soldering.  Getting the wire to be the right length is important and I spent a fair bit of time doing that when I refurbished the wiring recently.  One drawback with screw terminals is that wire can come loose and this has happened regularly.  The solution is to crimp ferrules to the wire ends giving a more positive connection.

 

I don't know about DCC Concepts.  I get their emails but rarely see anything I want or need.  My impression is that sometimes they produce solutions looking for a problem.  It is usually pretty expensive too.  My layout is DCC but as simple as I can make it.

 

John

[Harlequin]

This is the underside of my DCC Minories layout. I too used Wago connectors and double row DIN terminals, exactly as discussed above:

 

The "bus" is mainly multi-core copper red-and-black speaker cable from B&Q. It dives in and out of the DIN terminal blocks around the outside of the frame. All the wires are looped around the clamp screws.

 

The Wago connectors are all inside the grey "Wagoboxes" where they are kept neat and safe. Some people hot-glue their Wagos to the baseboards but by using Wagoboxes they can all be pulled out and got at in future if need be.

 

Wago connectors allowed me to wire the layout with frogs switched by the turnouts for initial testing and then to change them over to be switched by the point motors when they were installed. And should a motor fail in future I will be able to go back again.

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Harlequin

[brossard]

3 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

This is the underside of my DCC Minories layout. I too used Wago connectors and double row DIN terminals, exactly as discussed above:

 

The "bus" is mainly multi-core copper red-and-black speaker cable from B&Q. It dives in and out of the DIN terminal blocks around the outside of the frame. All the wires are looped around the clamp screws.

 

The Wago connectors are all inside the grey "Wagoboxes" where they are kept neat and safe. Some people hot-glue their Wagos to the baseboards but by using Wagoboxes they can all be pulled out and got at in future if need be.

 

Wago connectors allowed me to wire the layout with frogs switched by the turnouts for initial testing and then to change them over to be switched by the point motors when they were installed. And should a motor fail in future I will be able to go back again.

 

 

Now I do like that, very neat wiring.  The Wago boxes look interesting.  I was looking at the Wago connectors on Amazon and may try them if I do another layout.  (Actually I did start a 7mm micro based on Scalescenes Canal Dock).  I've been looking at the MTB point motors as well.  Both Tortoise (which I use) and Cobalt seem to have their issues.

 

John

[WIMorrison]

You can also buy an MTB MP10 which is a direct replacement for the Tortoise motor, even down to the footprint which is identical.

 

Same reliability as the rest of the range which I started using around 4 years (perhaps 5 years) ago and I have been telling everyone how good they are since :)) 

 

[Harlequin]

1 hour ago, brossard said:

 

Now I do like that, very neat wiring.  The Wago boxes look interesting.  I was looking at the Wago connectors on Amazon and may try them if I do another layout.  (Actually I did start a 7mm micro based on Scalescenes Canal Dock).  I've been looking at the MTB point motors as well.  Both Tortoise (which I use) and Cobalt seem to have their issues.

 

John

 

MTB MP1s have a lot to recommend them:

They have a very simple and elegant mechanism inside - basically a motor driving a camshaft.
They switch themselves off at the ends of their travel so they don't make that horrible straining noise made by some (all?) stall motors and they don't consume any power when idle.

The internal switches are all discrete sealed third-party micro-switches, so their durability and reliability should be excellent. That includes the built-in frog polarity switch.

 

[WIMorrison]

Phil

 

The MTB motors are not stall motors, hence not making a noise like stall motors and not consuming any current when stopped. The motor only turns in one direction and the first cam on the shaft nearest the eccentric activates the first micro switch to stop the motor. The next instruction causes the motor to turn the camshaft another 180 degrees and stop again.

 

the other micro switches as always in sync with the motor because the cams are all on the same cameshaft :)

[Harlequin]

3 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

Phil

 

The MTB motors are not stall motors, hence not making a noise like stall motors and not consuming any current when stopped. The motor only turns in one direction and the first cam on the shaft nearest the eccentric activates the first micro switch to stop the motor. The next instruction causes the motor to turn the camshaft another 180 degrees and stop again.

 

the other micro switches as always in sync with the motor because the cams are all on the same cameshaft :)

 

Yes, I know. I didn't say they were stall motors.

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Harlequin

[brossard]

20 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

Yes, I know. I didn't day they were stall motors.

 

 

Just for clarification, Tortoise (can't speak for Cobalt) are stall motors when used with DC.  I have Wabbit stationary decoders which supply power to the Tortoise for just 3 secs and then switch off.

 

John