LNER Doncaster - Gresley, the streamliners and all that jazz

[LNER4479]

Well, here we go again. Another layout construction topic by Yours Truly.

 

This one's a little different though as it is a commission.

 

It's not in any way intended as a replacment or rival for Grantham (the Streamliner Years) although you may detect some similarity in the title. The common theme is Mark Allatt; for those who don't know, a big fan of all things LNER and Gresley in particular (this thread will be a Thompson-free zone). It was some initial conversations with Mark over 15 years ago which sparked off the Grantham project and my LNER sabbatical and there have been occasional musings since as to whether Mark might have become the ultimate custodian of Grantham at the end of its exhibition career.

 

In the end, circumstances have led to Mark commissioning his own layout from me and so we have Doncaster in the LNER era, where the stock that Mark contributes to Grantham exhibitions will get to run into the future - and a lot more besides.

 

Firstly, the all important trackplan:

 

As originally drawn up a couple of years ago, whilst the room was being prepared. It's long and reasonably wide, much better for a project like this compared to a square room. The two constricting factors are the entrance (double, inward opening doors, top right) and a rather unfortunate pillar, a third of the way along the bottom wall. Working around those, there's a reasonable representation of the station, handily bookended by a bridge at each end. The longest platforms should take a 10-coach train. However, it's seeing the streamliners and other 'crack expresses' passing through the centre roads at speed that is the real attraction for Mark and so shunting operations around the station area are likely to play second fiddle. The main running loops have been planned such that the longest will take a 14 coach train. It's simply six in each direction.

Minimum radius is 3 feet and you'll see how the orientation of the station and the configuration of the fiddle yard is such that a fairly constant gap is maintained in between, so there should be ample space to move around and watch the trains.

 

Following further discussion and thoughts, the upper level details have been firmed up and this is the slightly revised full plan. The chief thing to note here is the ability to swap levels in both directions. The Sheffield lines curving away from the south end of the station are used to form one of the links; a hidden, single track connecting line at the back of the fiddle yard provides the other link. As well as seeing train charge through the centre roads(!), Mark also fancied a piece of fairly plain open countryside for the trains to run through so that's the idea at the top. There's a grade separation arrangement to hopefully make the gradients between the two manageable.

Three more sets of loops in each direction on the upper level, so that's 18 trains stored 'ready to go' on the whole scheme. The upper loop is also used to host the loco depot, bottom right, and that's where the otherwise annoying pillar is put to good use. There'll be a duck-under to a separate operating position, where locos can be shunted around the depot in gay abandon.

A final update (not shown) is that we will be including the east side through platform (today's plat 1), which was installed at the time of completion of the new 'Art Deco' station building. This wasn't until c.1940 so there is a little fluidity in the timeframe but it is otherwise late 1930s, at the zenith of the Gresley era.

 

OK - so are you really going to build all that? Well ...

 

A start has been made! The room is full of a lot of boxes (mainly containing stock), so maximising storage space is a prime concern. Here some kitchen base units have been obtained and assembled, as the basis for the fiddle yard support, with space in between designed for the plastic storage boxes.

 

Baseboard supporting frames then built up from these.

 

And now with the main fiddle yard board tops in place. You can see the reducing width effect heading towards the camera - just out of sight on the right is the double doorway. May not be immediately obvious, but the baseboard height is set quite high (4 feet) - Mark's a tall chap!

Stock display shelves, which were being stored, now on the wall - a much better place for them! The alcoves now also have shelves.

 

Here's the base for the aforementioned single track connecting line. The grade separation at this end starts here. The fiddle yard board rises away from the camera a mere 10mm (1-in-250), the ascending link line grade is 1-in-100.

 

And now the tracklaying has started! As you can see, my usual Peco approach. This is Code 75; round the front, on the scenic part, we plan to use the new Bullhead track. That'll be a first for me; quite looking forward to that.

 

Current commission extends to building baseboards, laying track and getting the basic layout up and running. Estimate 2-3 years. Control system yet to be decided but will be DCC for controlling the trains. But I'll make it switchable to DC as some of Mark's older kit built locos don't readily lend themselves to chip conversion or at least will be way down the shopping list.

 

Welcome along, especially lovers of all things LNER and Gresley!

Edited November 2, 2023 by LNER4479

[Graham T]

Wow...

[KeithHC]

Yes looks a great plan. There is not much of the East coast mainline left to be modelled. If I am right we have Peterborough north, Grantham, now Doncaster and York and Edinburgh Waverley. How about them all connected together at the nec. Maybe Pete Waterman could build Kings Cross and maybe Copenhagen fields in 4mm.

 

Keith

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

There's examples of North London industrial, Edgware branch, Potters Bar, Hitchin and Peterborough available, and one day when my layout room is finally cleared of the furniture of the recently deceased and the house extension project is finalised, I will resume Hatfield (Herts).

 

And I bet there are more for exhibiting the 'Grand Parade of Flamboyant Velocity on the line Miles Beevor all others'. We need Star Trek transporter technology and about six miles of unused LT tube tunnel.

[gr.king]

Finding myself attracted, or compelled by necessity, to activities outside of railway modelling too, I'm finding just one reasonably small, oval, portable layout quite enough to work on, when attempting to stick to something like finescale standards (OO fine). I really don't know how you find time and headspace to deal with several projects in parallel.

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, KeithHC said:

Yes looks a great plan. There is not much of the East coast mainline left to be modelled. If I am right we have Peterborough north, Grantham, now Doncaster and York and Edinburgh Waverley. How about them all connected together at the nec. Maybe Pete Waterman could build Kings Cross and maybe Copenhagen fields in 4mm.

 

Keith

+ Little Bytham and Retford.

[Mark Allatt]

Many thanks for the post LNER4479! I've been waiting many - too many - years for this opportunity and bought my latest property with the absolute requirement for such a space.

 

Although the bulk for my stock is 1930s LNER - including every Gresley Pacific, P2 and the W1 -  I do also have a few post-war Thompson and Peppercorn locomotives as well as of course Tornado and Prince of Wales... and a few foreigners which will be allowed out occasionally.

 

We'd be most grateful of any period photos and information that people have as we progress the project over the next few years.

 

 

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

Looking forward to this Layout. Doncaster is a Big place.

 

manna

[LNER4479]

Latest visit today.

 

There'd been a major box shifting exercise since last visit (3 weeks ago), on the back of the Newcastle show (ultimately abortive), so that was welcome and helped with the first task of the day - construct baseboard for south end of the station.

 

And a few hours later ...

This should give a good idea of that end of the room, which I wasn't able to show last time round. You can just see the annoying pillar, extreme left, which juts into the room and has influenced the trackplan. It probably holds the building up though, so perhaps we shouldn't be too hard on it?

 

Of more interest (possibly?), this is intended to show that the left hand side (Doncaster station) is higher than the right hand side (fiddle yard); this is part of a split gradient arrangement to assist with linking the lower and higher levels.

 

Anyhow, with that done, attention turned to tracklaying, seen here in full flow(!)

 

And this is where I got to. The north end of the lower level fiddle yard now complete (in terms of track being laid)

 

Part of the time taken involved fitting these links to point motors, before laying the other tracks on top. Point motors underneath would have been possible but not in all cases. Besides, point motors on top of baseboards are easier to work on.

 

Viewed from the other end, this shows the start of the next ladder of points, the exit from the 'up' circuit.

 

Similar work programmed for next visit, hopefully this side of the festive season.

Edited November 21, 2023 by LNER4479

[D-A-T]

It’s a pity it wasn’t set in an earlier time period. I’ve always wanted to see my hometown station in GNR Edwardian times.

 

[D-A-T]

I believe this is a 1930s photo.

 

[PaulRhB]

My Grandfather was a goods guard in the period at Doncaster so when we were small he used to take us to the station and tell stories as we watched Deltics and later HST’s. Sadly he never took photos but he did transfer his appreciation of the LNER so looking forward to the build as Grantham is a great layout to watch. 

[drmditch]

11 hours ago, D-A-T said:

It’s a pity it wasn’t set in an earlier time period. I’ve always wanted to see my hometown station in GNR Edwardian times.

 

 

Fascinating. Thank you for posting.

 

Some questions however regarding the large number of equine motive power units on display.

Did someone have to go round sweeping-up before the photographs were taken?

Did a member of the station staff have a permanent job to tidy up the 'residue'?

Were there hosepipes for sluicing down?

 

I'm not sure I have seen any reference to this before.

But the problem would have needed managing, especially on a hot day.

 

Perhaps everyone was just so used to hot and sweaty people and hot and sweaty horses that the additional smells didn't register?

Some nice Yorkshire Coal smoke might have come as a relief!

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by drmditch

[LNER4479]

6 hours ago, D-A-T said:

It’s a pity it wasn’t set in an earlier time period. I’ve always wanted to see my hometown station in GNR Edwardian times.

 

Yes, compelling aren't they?  Have come across them (or very similar) in our research.

 

Have you found the one of the Royal train passing through?

http://www.archive-images.co.uk/index.search.php?sid=535898&img=3

 

But it's challenging enough building in the 1930s as it is; going back a further generation ... well, I think would make it a lifetime's work.

 

Away from the new Art Deco station building, much of the GNR intrastructure was still in place so there is the potential for there to be quite a period feel of the place, including the platform canopies. Just come across the following Ben Brooksbank photo (via Wikimedia) which I think illustrates that well.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by LNER4479

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Just come across the following Ben Brooksbank photo (via Wikimedia) which I think illustrates that well.

I’ve previously found his photos of Paddington and Temple Meads very useful (via Geograph).  His is an excellent resource.

Paul.

[LNER4479]

Latest update, actually a combination of two recent visits.

 

We're now at the (exciting) stage whereby the boards for Doncaster station itself need constructing. This eight foot board should support the south end junctions and southern half of the station.

 

One suitably braced (honest), top board is fastened down.

 

The view the other way shows how the shape and layout of the fiddle yard tracks are designed to match the orientation of the station boards so as to maintain the access space to be a reasonably credible 2ft 6" min. See track plan in post #1.

 

Attention then switched to further tracklaying in the fiddle yard area.

 

And here we are at 'draw stumps'. The fiddle yard beginning to take shape and pretty much 'as planned'. For now at least.

 

Edited February 7 by LNER4479

[t-b-g]

Does this look a bit familiar?

 

I too have been asked to help with a model of Doncaster, this time set in the 1970s, in EM Gauge. These were built from a railway plan, which gave us the footprint, plus much brick counting and photograph taking! The roof arrangements took some sorting out, mainly from old aerial photos, plus Google Earth.

 

 

[LNER4479]

Thanks Tony - impressive work.

 

I take it those are the buildings on Platform 1-3? And to scale? We unfortunately are having to compromise in both length and width - both up and down island platforms will be shorter and (particularly) narrower than they should be.

 

Feel free to share any further images of your work on 'Doncaster 1970'.

[gr.king]

Whilst it is very clearly being built to a commendably high standard with maximum possible authenticity, the number of years since Doncaster 1970 was conceived and started, plus the number of years it will probably still take before it becomes even a reasonably complete/convincing working model would be entirely beyond my patience/interest/attention span.  Credit is due to those who can tolerate such a long gestation period.

[Mark Allatt]

On 07/02/2024 at 19:00, LNER4479 said:

Latest update, actually a combination of two recent visits.

 

We're now at the (exciting) stage whereby the boards for Doncaster station itself need constructing. This eight foot board should support the south end junctions and southern half of the station.

 

One suitably braced (honest), top board is fastened down.

 

The view the other way shows how the shape and layout of the fiddle yard tracks are designed to match the orientation of the station boards so as to maintain the access space to be a reasonably credible 2ft 6" min. See track plan in post #1.

 

Attention then switched to further tracklaying in the fiddle yard area.

 

And here we are at 'draw stumps'. The fiddle yard beginning to take shape and pretty much 'as planned'. For now at least.

 

Looking good I must say! The fiddle yard now has a 10 coach train sitting in it for measurement purposes although we will need to be able to accommodate my full length 1938 Flying Scotsman!

[Mark Allatt]

21 hours ago, t-b-g said:

Does this look a bit familiar?

 

I too have been asked to help with a model of Doncaster, this time set in the 1970s, in EM Gauge. These were built from a railway plan, which gave us the footprint, plus much brick counting and photograph taking! The roof arrangements took some sorting out, mainly from old aerial photos, plus Google Earth.

 

 

Thanks for sharing - looks fantastic. We must keep in touch as our projects progress. You are much further on than we are!

[t-b-g]

10 hours ago, gr.king said:

Whilst it is very clearly being built to a commendably high standard with maximum possible authenticity, the number of years since Doncaster 1970 was conceived and started, plus the number of years it will probably still take before it becomes even a reasonably complete/convincing working model would be entirely beyond my patience/interest/attention span.  Credit is due to those who can tolerate such a long gestation period.

 

It has only been 50 years since it was decided to build it. You can't rush these things. Not much happened other than the gathering of information and stock for the first fortysomething.

 

I am with you 100%. I would have lost interest and decided to model something less ambitious years (or decades) ago but I do admire those with the vision and staying power to keep going.

[t-b-g]

45 minutes ago, Mark Allatt said:

Thanks for sharing - looks fantastic. We must keep in touch as our projects progress. You are much further on than we are!

 

Thanks Mark,

 

That is kind but you will be leaping ahead now. I used to visit John one day a week to work on his layout. All the points are built, the three signal boxes, St James Bridge is done and the Plant Works footbridge is nearly there. The fiddle yard baseboards are made and some track is laid in them and the first few boards for the scenic section are built. Then Covid hit, my visits stopped and so did progress. John (Phillips) has been talking about me starting up going again for the last two years but the workroom got used for storage and other purposes and it all needs sorting out before there is anywhere to work.

 

I will be seeing John on Saturday at the Doncaster show. I will tell him what you are up to and it might kick him into gear.

 

John did collect a huge amount of information, so if you are stuck for anything, let me know and I will see if he can help. I will follow your build with great interest.

 

You may not remember but you and I met at the naming ceremony for Tornado, back in 2009. I used to knock about with Malcolm Crawley and he took me along as a guest. We chatted about you thoughts on doing a P2 next!

 

Best wishes,

 

Tony Gee

[t-b-g]

12 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Thanks Tony - impressive work.

 

I take it those are the buildings on Platform 1-3? And to scale? We unfortunately are having to compromise in both length and width - both up and down island platforms will be shorter and (particularly) narrower than they should be.

 

Feel free to share any further images of your work on 'Doncaster 1970'.

 

You are quite correct. Pl 1 to 4 (as it was , it is now 3). They are the buildings at the South end. There is another to do, around the same length but not as complex or tall, for the North end. I have been looking through my various albums and have taken very few photos of the project. I will try to get some more.

 

For the scale, the big problem is the width. From the front wall of the Plant to the wall alongside Pl 1 is 5ft 6ins to scale. Not easy to reach over that when it is down one side of a loft! The project is to scale length from St James Bridge to North Bridge. John has a 55ft long loft, so we don't struggle with the length.

 

Shrinking it will actually probably result in a more balanced and visually appealing layout. 

[LNER4479]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I will be seeing John on Saturday at the Doncaster show. I will tell him what you are up to and it might kick him into gear.

 

John did collect a huge amount of information, so if you are stuck for anything, let me know and I will see if he can help. I will follow your build with great interest.

In which case, do feel free to come and find us on 'Shap' on Saturday. In fact, I think I might have already had a chat with John at the York show. I am somewhat remiss at not following up that conversation at the time but no matter - we've still to get stuck into the nitty-gritty of the station detail. At some point, I'll need to draw up a condensed version of the buildings you are making; the source information may well be useful when we get to that stage.