Agricultural produce by rail - what did farmers import (particularly on the W&U Tramway)?

[phil_sutters]

Presumably building materials would be required for building residential and business buildings - whether farming or crop processing or manufacturing. So brick, timber, sand, cement, corrugated iron, steel joists, glass etc. I guess these loads would not have been great or that frequent, but they would, like the farm machinery mentioned above, provide variety in the traffic.

[Philou]

9 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

I believe the name was 'Pure'.

 

And I believe you're right. I haven't seen the book in a long time and couldn't make reference to it. I've never been to Marrakesh ........ perhaps I won't purely based on the smell!

[Nearholmer]

The caves at Nottingham were apparently a centre of the pure/tanning industry and if you visit them you get to see where the maturing vats were (thankfully a very, very long time ago).

Edited November 3, 2023 by Nearholmer

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 02/11/2023 at 18:09, Philou said:

... and I understand dog poo was collected by the bucketful by the street urchins in London at 6d a bucket for use in the tanning industry - hence the nice brown colour to the leather - and the awful smell. I think the name given to the poo was 'shining'...

As above, 'Pure' which was the doggie doo once it had gone white; was a term settled on latterly.  Tanning is an ancient industry, and this delightful ingredient in the process will have had many regional names in past times, because before there was easy travel local patois were 'everywhere'. 

 

(I had the joy of a history master who was a specialist in occupational surnames and their analysis, and was particularly pleased at having a Furber and a Sumpter amongst the pupil surnames at that school at various times.) Armour polisher and specialist carter to the nobility.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Tanning is an ancient industry, and this delightful ingredient in the process will have had many regional names in past times, because before there was easy travel local patois were 'everywhere'. olisher and specialist carter to the nobility.

 

I've got a name for it, but I think it would get censored.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Satan's plasticine?

[Compound2632]

On 02/11/2023 at 12:13, Dungrange said:

Mousa models do a Midland Railway Manure Wagon - https://mousa-models.co.uk/scales/bwk1705-4-mr-d-344-manure-wagon-2/, which I'm assuming would be suitable for importing the output from animals.  Was human waste transported in the same way?  I must admit that I never knew they used human waste as a fertiliser at that time.

 

Those Midland manure wagons are a bit of a curiosity. There were 102 of them, built in four batches in the mid 1890s. They are the then standard 8-ton high side wagon but without side or bottom doors. They must have been interesting to unload.

 

The one illustrated in Essery's Midland Wagons is from the first batch of 20 and carries a plate on the solebar with the instruction "To be returned to Nottingham when empty", which perhaps implies that each batch was built for a specific contract. These wagons were built as renewals rather than as additions to stock, consequently there is no mention of them in the Traffic or C&W Committee minutes. This, again possibly, suggests that they replaced wagons already catering for this traffic.

 

Looking back 40 or more years, there is some mention of manure traffic in the Traffic Committee minutes. In January 1853, it was ordered that "Notice be given to parties sending Town or Stable Manure upon the Railway that it cannot be carried in future except in private Wagons." [TC minute 2623, TNA RAIL 491/138.] But a few years later there was a change of heart: in January 1859, the Committee "Read report from the Goods Manager as to the requirements of the Manure traffic between Kings Cross and the Stations on the Leicester and Hitchin line, and the General Manager was instructed to consider whether a sufficient number of high-sided Wagons could not be set apart for the Traffic." [TC minute 8669, TNA RAIL 491/142.] The outcome of the General Manager's cogitations is not recorded, but perhaps these D344 wagons were the descendants of the ones he set apart then.

[Nearholmer]

There was a ‘vestry dust depot’ in Walworth, next to the Midland Railway coal depot adjacent the viaduct going southwards from Blackfriars, from which ‘dust’, mainly ash and street-sweepings containing very high % horse droppings, was sent by rail out into Kent. There were a couple of places that had sidings leading direct into the orchards and fields which were used for ‘dust’ inwards and produce outwards.

 

Human waste was once used ‘raw’, but latterly, once proper sewerage systems were provided, it was used following filtration, settling and weathering, after which it isn’t much different from fine, slightly damp peat. It is still used now, but gets careful heat treatment to kill any remaining pathogens while keeping the beneficial bacteria alive, but it is controversial because of the amounts of artificial chemicals, antibiotics etc in modern poo. 
 

The barge transport mentioned above was probably of the weathered sludge, which isn’t horrible at all, nor a significant bio-hazard. Before covered ‘digesters’, which trap the gas from the process, became universal, I visited several narrow gauge railways where it was dug out from the weathering beds and trundled to big heaps for a further stage of weathering, and to let it dry out a bit more (it got rained on in the weathering beds), and apart from being a bit squidgy to walk in, and a forest of tomato and sunflower plants, it was fine. It didn’t even smell particularly because by that stage in the process the good bacteria had done their stuff a weren’t f@rting out gas any more.

 

Here are some pictures of Britain’s last big poo railway. Some smaller sites lasted a bit longer. http://www.ingr.co.uk/rly_minworth.html
 

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Philou]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Here are some pictures of Britain’s last big poo railway.

 

How interesting - yes really. I would never have guessed that such a railway would have existed - nay - needed. I suspect similar to the lines laid between brickworks and brick clay fields. In Essex there were a few and in one case the Highway Authority built at great expense, an overbridge as part of a new road construction over such a line. Insofar as I am aware the bridge was never used by the railway!

 

6 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

As above, 'Pure' which was the doggie doo once it had gone white

 

I wondered where all the white dog poo went as you don't see any anymore - lots about when I was a kid. Is it all exported to Marrakesh? ;)

[Dungrange]

Thanks for all the suggestions so far, even if details of the tanning industry is perhaps a little off topic.  Perhaps I should say that my reason for asking the initial question was two fold. 

 

Firstly, it appears that there was probably a significant imbalance between inbound and outbound traffic, particularly during the main harvest time - ie the summer months.  That would therefore require a lot of empty wagons heading towards Upwell to be loaded.  For produce to be conveyed in covered goods vans, an empty and a loaded van look the same, but for outbound produce conveyed in open wagons, I'd like to understand how many inbound open wagons would likely be empty and how many would likely be conveying inbound goods.

 

Secondly, for those that are loaded, I'd like to know what sort of loads I should be thinking about modelling (a lot will have to be different between the inbound and outbound directions).

 

In response to a few specific points:

 

On 01/11/2023 at 18:54, CKPR said:

Also, don't forget about oil coming in for rural factories and processing plants.

 

On 02/11/2023 at 12:03, ianathompson said:

Re oil for rural factories.

I am not aware that there were any rural factories near the W&U tramway, although I could be wrong.

It would be a plausible incoming load for an adapted layout.

 

On 02/11/2023 at 20:13, figworthy said:

Oil could have covered a number of things.

 

Paraffin will have been popular for domestic use in the days before electricity was generally available.

 

The pumping stations (for drainage) would have originally been wind powered.  Some of these were later converted to steam, and then diesel powered (now electric).  Because of their locations, most of those would have been supplied by water, but some could have come in by rail.

 

I've not read of any rural factories and processing plants in the area and there didn't appear to be any specific handling facilities for oil at any of the tramway depots.  There certainly were dozens of pumping stations, which I think were mainly coal fired in the pre-grouping era.  I believe that the coal was originally delivered by water but on the opening of the Wisbech and Upwell Tramway, the conveyance of coal transferred to the tram as far as Outwell and then transferred to the canal system for final delivery.  These pumping stations were subsequently converted to diesel, but I think that was mainly post second world war (and no doubt the oil mainly went by road by that time).

 

I'm assuming that Paraffin would have arrived in a 14T tank wagon, so if I can find a suitable 4mm model, I can add a tank wagon to a desired stock list, although I doubt that there would have been huge quantities of oil traffics on the W&U Tramway, so it's probably not a high priority purchase.

 

On 02/11/2023 at 13:30, adanapress said:

In the earlier W & U days there was very likely coprolite traffic.   That's to say prehistoric

fossilized shark poo,   quite an industry back then in the North Norfolk high ridge, supplying

farms all over East Anglia. Fertiliser  source of nitrogen for the soil I believe. At a distance a heap of it looks like dark gravel. 

 

According to Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprolite, the industry declined in the 1880s, so I agree that was possibly an early traffic on the W&U, although perhaps less relevant to the later pre-grouping (WW1) period that I'm more interested in.

 

On 02/11/2023 at 11:05, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

And what was the fertiliser in time past? The result of bowel movements of both humans and animals. London was a major exporter...

On 02/11/2023 at 14:40, Bernard Lamb said:

Coprolite to give  it its proper name.

At one time dug in vast quantities in the area between Cambridge and Royston.

Presumably send to London by train.

 

I think these are both bowel outputs but of different ages.  😀 Coprolite is fossilised and possibly did find it's way to London, with Cambridgeshire being the source.  However, it appears the export from London would have been manure and also sludge from the cities sewers (ie fresh rather than fossilised).  I'm hoping that if these 'fresh bowel movements' were inbound loads that the same wagons weren't then used to convey fruit and vegetables.  No doubt someone is going to say yes, they just gave them a quick hose down.

 

On 02/11/2023 at 12:03, ianathompson said:

The soils in the area are the very fertile black soils that are capable, with certain rotations. of producing three crops a year.

I would be surprised, although I could be wrong, if any lime or fertiliser was incoming.

 

I've always understood the area to be very fertile and good for growing (so probably not needing soil improvers), but if it's able to produce three crops per year, then I'd assume that there must be some requirement to replace phosphates, nitrates etc.  There would have been some manure produced locally, but since the area is not known for it's dairy herds, I'm assuming inbound manure and/or sludge are potential inbound loads if the soils require to have their nutrients topped up after each harvest.

 

On 02/11/2023 at 13:38, Nearholmer said:

Whether the W&U had such “rushes” of very high value, time critical fruits, I don’t know.

 

I'm assuming it probably did.  Another thread on RMweb referred to a rake of NER fruit vans at Wisbech pre-WW1 and I wouldn't expect to see that many NER wagons in the area pre-WW1 if there wasn't some sort of call for extra vans.

 

On 02/11/2023 at 11:55, Nearholmer said:

Inward goods on the Wissington in the sample year (1954/55) was 1 354 tons, outwards 14 693 tons of beet, plus 3 801 tons of “other”. The inward items included beet seed, beet pulp (either for animal feed or fertiliser, I think), potato seed (seed potatoes?), galvanised iron sheets, empty crates & sacks, oil, farm machinery, building materials, and cattle.

 

It looks like that has the same traffic imbalance that I suspect existed on the W&U Tramway: outbound tonnages are more than ten times what's input.  Is there a primary source of this sort of information (ie tonnages per annum of various commodities)?  There are some figures in Peter Paye's book, but not enough to get a full understanding of the relative importance of different types of traffic in particular year.

[Johann Marsbar]

On 02/11/2023 at 19:04, billbedford said:

 

Coprolites are fossilised faeces. They were used in the 19th century as a source of available phosphates. Refining was done in Ipswich by a company that later became Fisons Ltd. 

 

We've still got a "Coprolite Street" in the town......   https://ipswichmaritimetrust.org.uk/the-story-of-coprolite-street/

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

21 minutes ago, Philou said:

I wondered where all the white dog poo went as you don't see any anymore

The required result of 'Pure' for traditional tanning purposes was only obtainable when dogs were allowed their fully carnivorous diet. Quite what the essential chemical doings in the dried white doings were, who knows? 

 

Modern commercial dog fodder results in something far tamer.

Upside: dogs are now only very unpleasant, instead of reeking of rotten flesh.

Downside: if they were still 100% on meat they would have gone the way of the cigarette.

A world without yap, yap, how wonderful that would be: only heard in special compounds outside some pubs, thus so easy to avoid.

[Nearholmer]

33 minutes ago, Philou said:

. I would never have guessed that such a railway would have existed

Even quite small sewage treatment works had railways, or in many cases monorails, to move sludge about, carry filter material etc. The big ones at the edges of large cities were very extensive networks, especially Birmingham (the one in my photos) and Manchester, the latter even having at least one, rather posh, passenger carriage for tours by visiting dignitaries. 
 

Back to topic ……

[Nearholmer]

9 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Quite what the essential chemical doings in the dried white doings were, who knows? 

Excessive calcium from a diet with too much bone-meal, historically from commercial ‘dog biscuits’. Possibly medieval and early modern dog poo wasn’t white; it rather depends what the dogs were eating.

 

Now, really back to topic …. 
 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Dunalastair]

On 02/11/2023 at 19:28, Nearholmer said:

Coprolites were processed by factories in various places, I think there was one in Norwich, one in Ipswich, one near Birmingham (the erstwhile coprolite pits near where I live sent theirs by canal to Brum), and one in East London, plus others. 

 

 

 

There was a coprolite / fertiliser factory by the Lode (a fenland canal) at Burwell here in Cambs, served by a dedicated railway - the SG Burwell Tramway (with a NG feeder serving an orchard).

 

There is a thread about the Tramway here on the forum

 

[Philou]

 

That's an interesting photo - to me anyway. Part of the pointwork is made with an early form of concrete sleepers that are interlaced rather than continuous from one side to the other - nice and eclectic.

 

Apologies to @Dunalastair: I couldn't grab your picture as a quote.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Philou

[Nearholmer]

The other important ‘soil amendment’ to mention is guano. https://thegardenstrust.blog/2015/07/18/guano/
 

This too gave rise to some jolly interesting narrow gauge railways!

 

The above link is about the British quest for guano, but everyone else was at it too, and the French struck gold in the pacific islands, then shipped out lots of Decauville portable railways to aid in the ‘mining’.

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

the French struck gold

 

... which brings us full circle to Harry King, "King of the Golden River". "Taking the p--s since 1961".

[Bernard Lamb]

Not directly on topic, but as usual we seem to have wandered.

While doing some family research I came across a relative listed in the census as a coprolite digger and he lived in Shepreth.

The Nickey Line, the railway between Harpenden and Hemel Hempstead, passed through land owned by  Shadrach Godwin. He had a private halt with a siding built as part of the deal. He negotiated to collect the street sweepings in London, containing a large percentage of horse droppings, and take them to his siding for distribution to local farms. Which explains why fragments of old pottery and china can be found in gardens all over the Hemel area. Did this traffic use the Midland manure wagons mentioned a few post ago?

Bernard

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Did this traffic use the Midland manure wagons mentioned a few post ago?

 

As far as I'm aware, the official photo reproduced in Midland Wagons is the only known photo of any of these wagons. The suggestion there that they were for manure generated by cattle in transit is almost certainly wrong. Manure generated locally was sold locally; the Midland had a form for it: G.F. 51 [see MRSC item 32527]. In 1879, rates for sale of stable manure from Settle station were 2/6 per month per horse and 1/8 per month for yard sweepings [MRSC item 27542].

 

The nearest I can find to the night soil type of traffic is a Goods Manager's Circular from 1877 entitled "FLOCKS. TOWN SEWAGE MANURE &c." [MRSC item 17314] - not yet digitised, so will have to await the reopening of the Museum of Making following its Storm Babet flooding.

https://www.midlandrailwaystudycentre.org.uk/catalogue.php

 

If a Nickey line photo turned up with these wagons in it, that would be quite a find.

[billbedford]

There was a report in. I think, the GCR Soc magazine, of a train going through Rotherham containing a wagon filled with night soil. The train snatched going through the station depositing some of the contents of this wagon onto waiting passengers. This ended in a court case with the railway found liable for the damage to these passenger's clothing. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by billbedford

[Dunalastair]

12 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

 

While doing some family research I came across a relative listed in the census as a coprolite digger and he lived in Shepreth.

 

 

Right part of the world for that trade. Staying with fossilised dinosaurs, there was apparently a coprolite mill at Meldreth station, just up the road from Shepreth. As well as a number of tramways in that area serving the chalk / cement industry, there was this fine machine, which is often linked to the coprolite industry, though chalk perhaps seems more likely. Makes the W&UT look like HS2.

 

https://www.meldrethhistory.org.uk/topics/commerce/shops-and-services/the_coprolite_industry_in_meldreth

 

There was a large rail-served coprolite working at Trumpington in WW1 (some of the water-filled pits are still there), but that was developed for munitions manufacture not agriculture. There is a detailed history of corprolite working at http://www.bernardoconnor.org.uk/coprolites.html.

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Dunalastair

[Nearholmer]

Staying OT: I’ve always accepted that photo as showing the coprolite tramway, so I’d be interested to hear why you think it might not be.

 

The wagons are +/- identical with those used on the erstwhile coprolite tramway near where I now live, which ran from a pit near Great Brickhill, to a ‘washery’ created in the River Ousel, and I believe they are products of Howards of Bedford, to whom I’m also tempted to attribute the loco. I think there is a Howard wooden side-tipper railway wagon preserved at a farm museum near Cambridge, but I can’t for the life of me remember exactly where; I don’t think it’s Denny Abbey.

 

Howard cultivator engine of the 1870s:

 

 

The fact that it looks very like the Meldreth loco isn’t conclusive though, because other agricultural engineers produced very similar beasts. Ransome & Rapier of Ipswich, for instance, were another engineering firm born out of agricultural engineering that were heavily into railways, but their products had got a lot more sophisticated than the Meldreth loco, which is clearly based on an agricultural portable engine, by the sort of dates in question. Howard’s did catalogue more sophisticated portable railway locos, heavily inspired by Fowler products, but I’m not certain whether they actually built/sold any.

 

Here are a couple of natives of Cambridgeshire at work (bend your knees, not your back!):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Dunalastair]

You are perhaps thinking of the museum at Ramsey, out on the Fen. I took this photo there some 14 years ago.

 

 

 

As to 'why not coprolite', it was simply the number of wagons - I was not sure that early Coprolite workings would generate sufficient material. Most coprolite tramways in Cambs (pre WW1 at least) were I think small horse drawn operations - see for instance the tramway on https://maps.nls.uk/view/114487255 between Kingston and Eversden. The OS captured other lines near Horningsea, but most probably came and went between visits from the OS surveyors.

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Dunalastair

[Nearholmer]

That’s it!!

 

I made a pilgrimage to go and look at it (was there another one, not restored?) c25* years ago, but the day was dominated by me smashing the front axle and drive of my car to bits when calling in at the pumping station museum at Chesterton on the way back, so I’d forgotten where it was.

 

*No, more like c16 years ago, thinking about it.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Nearholmer