Swanage railway struggling?

[Hal Nail]

On 11/11/2023 at 20:03, spamcan61 said:

I recall when I had a small degree of involvement with the Mid Hants line in the late  nineties I was informed that bookings from the Alresford (pretty) end significantly exceeded those from Alton (the mainline connection end)

Still true now and they burn a lot of coal getting back up from there. The alton end is handy for the real ale trains but day to day traffic is usually pretty light. 

 

In its defence, Alton is a lot prettier than Aldershot!

Edited November 13, 2023 by Hal Nail

[Legend]

I think if the Swanage Railway cant make a go out of it then we really do have some serious trouble , because it should have a lot of things going for it :-

 

The destination is a lovely typically English sea side town.

It travels through some lovely countryside

A major attraction has to be the village of Corfe Castle and of course the Castle itself

The weather darn sarf is typically better than further north , thinking Keighley, NYMR ,Bo-ness as examples of northern preservation

 

If a preserved railway in such a spectacular setting cant make a go of it then the preservation movement is doomed !

 

I was there in 2022 . Loved it . Bullied Pacifics in Steam , a typically Southern atmosphere . 

[Boris]

53 minutes ago, Legend said:

I think if the Swanage Railway cant make a go out of it then we really do have some serious trouble , because it should have a lot of things going for it :-

 

The destination is a lovely typically English sea side town.

It travels through some lovely countryside

A major attraction has to be the village of Corfe Castle and of course the Castle itself

The weather darn sarf is typically better than further north , thinking Keighley, NYMR ,Bo-ness as examples of northern preservation

 

If a preserved railway in such a spectacular setting cant make a go of it then the preservation movement is doomed !

 

I was there in 2022 . Loved it . Bullied Pacifics in Steam , a typically Southern atmosphere . 

Most of the above is true for the NYMR too.  And for Llangollen but we saw what happened there not so long ago and it wasn't the end of the world, I think its 4 preserved railway/preservation societies went bust since the start of covid but we haven't seen that much of a shift in the landscape but I feel it is coming, the price of everything is going up, people are generally busier now and the biggest blow is folks retiring later - the newly retired being a historically good source of labour for preserved railways for years.  

 

Hell, you've even for the National Collection routinely disposing of assets now

 

 

[Northmoor]

On 11/11/2023 at 13:35, RichardT said:

Exactly - buses are the public transport, the railway is a joyride. The main value of a lot of branches was that they plugged people into the national network for medium and long distance travel, ideally with through trains and ticketing. They weren’t expected to survive on local travel.

I do despair at the number of preserved railways that think they can economically run a public service in competition with an existing bus.  There is a reason so many branch lines were closed and it wasn't some grand conspiracy.  The entry threshold is incredibly high and other railways should take note; if the Swanage can't run such a service at a profit, it's very unlikely anyone else can.

 

The opportunity from a main line connection to the Swanage Railway was to allow one-off excursions - although these can be of dubious value to a railway - and giving access to a service run by SWR, not by the heritage railway.  By insisting they have to do it themselves, the heritage railway carries all the overheads of maintaining the DMU to NR standards and presumably requires paid staff to guarantee the public service actually runs.  They could have allowed SWR to run one service in and out late morning and one last thing in the afternoon (to deposit a couple of hundred people in Swanage and collect them at the end of the day), sat back, taking the track access fees and letting SWR do the promotion.

[Hal Nail]

4 hours ago, Legend said:

If a preserved railway in such a spectacular setting cant make a go of it then the preservation movement is doomed !

There's a thread already discussing this somewhere and as usual there are two camps. One giving plenty of evidence to suggest it is not looking good, and plenty saying its just like flu.

[RichardT]

3 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Hell, you've even for the National Collection routinely disposing of assets now

Sorry, can’t let this pass. It’s a good enthusiast obsession shoehorn, but absolutely nothing to do with the subject under discussion in this topic.

 

Regular collection reviews and disposals are part of the routine work of a properly managed museum. Of course, the disposals you’re bothered about are just those of railway vehicles - not all the thousands of other items held.  The NRM arguably does less of it than it should do because it’s worried about ignorant enthusiast reactions from those who are under the impression that the job of a national museum is to keep one of everything. The core rail vehicle collection was put together in the 1950s by a bunch of great and good male nostalgics who wanted all their boyhood favourite shiny chuff chuffs and royal carriages preserved at public expense to show that Britain was best. It never occurred to them in a million years that the museum might want to make space and free resources in the future to collect other perspectives e.g. diesel and electric vehicles, carriages used by ordinary people and goods stock used for humble purposes, everyday goods and industrial locos, narrow gauge items, or even, heaven forfend, loans or acquisitions from furriners which could tell parts of the railway story better than British stuff.
 

The vehicle collection is well overdue a slimming down. We had years of discussion when I was there as to why we had so many Edwardian 4-4-0s all telling more or less the same story and which could be let go.

 

 (Also in need of a hard look, of course, are the unsustainable number of steam locos allegedly “preserved” on heritage railways but in fact simply in a deferred scrapping queue).  
 

There, that’ll make me unpopular!

 

4 hours ago, Legend said:

The weather darn sarf is typically better than further north.

<Yorkshire hat on> Nonsense! Much wetter in the south-west than the north-east.  <Yorkshire hat off>  Which is actually better for steam railways as you’re less likely to have to curtail steam services in the peak season due to fire risk in dry hot conditions. Which the NYMR has suffered from recently, whereas the Dorset drizzle presumably helps the SR. 😋

 

OT diversion over.

 

RichardT

 

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, Boris said:

you've even for the National Collection routinely disposing of assets now

Although part of that is the normal museum process of periodic collections review and deaccession of some objects, especially as the NRM for instance has relatively limited space and a mandate to tell the story of railways across a wide geographical and timespan (perhaps encompassing more modern stuff as well, which isn’t always as popular with heritage railways generally). In one sense deaccession only works in this instance because there are other organisations able to provide a more, or equally, appropriate home (this being iirc one of the Museums Association good practice guidelines for deaccession). It’s also possible that a lot of items entered the National Collection before the current vast scale of the UK heritage railway scene was envisaged - wasn’t there a list compiled in the 1960s of a representative selection of locos that should be preserved, but based on the assumption that these would go into the National Collection and not considering the possible emergence of other museums or operational railways that might preserve these or other locos?

 

At least in the case of the T3 at Swanage, I gather that this was donated rather than sold by the NRM, so I’m not sure what (if any) direct financial benefit to the NRM would be perceived anyway (other than not needing to pay for its conservation and storage).

 

That said, some museums are structured basically as two separate trusts, one of which is operational, runs everything that is commercial or involves contracts, pays staff etc. and takes on liability, whereas the other one takes on no liability and exists only to own the collection. The idea (as it was explained to me when I had some training on this at work) being essentially that if the ‘operations’ trust goes to the wall, the collection items will still be owned by the other trust and therefore won’t (in theory at least) immediately have to be sold off to repay debts. I don’t know if many heritage railways use this structure but personally I’d feel a lot more comfortable about them taking ownership of former National Collection items if they were.

 

Just before I post this, I realise @RichardT has beaten me to it on the deaccession point, and probably explained it rather better and more succinctly. The description of it as ‘a good enthusiast obsession shoehorn’ I think is extremely accurate. And also I think there’s a bit of an excessive focus from some people on the high-profile locomotives, when the NRM is supposed to tell the story of railways generally and from multiple angles (social history, engineering, political history etc.). One of the objects on display in York is an old railway wall clock (I think from the GWR although I can’t remember), telling the story of ‘railway time’ becoming the standard time for the UK, which in one sense is vastly more significant and world-changing than the stories related to more impressive objects in the museum.

 

Actually while we’re discussing museums, a lot of museums in the wider heritage sector are run largely by paid staff, with volunteers in specific roles, or supporting roles that help to improve the museum, rather than depending almost entirely on volunteers. This doesn’t necessarily render them financially unviable (even the ones that have very complex and expensive-to-run operations) so I’m not sure why this would inherently be an issue with heritage railways that use a higher number of paid staff.

 

4 hours ago, Boris said:

Most of the above is true for the NYMR too. 

Obviously there are other lines struggling as well, but if we’re comparing Swanage and the NYMR then is there anything else to be said about the effect (in both cases) that running on Network Rail has had on their already fairly complex operations? It just strikes me as being a similarity between the two lines, and one potentially leading to higher costs.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

By insisting they have to do it themselves, the heritage railway carries all the overheads of maintaining the DMU to NR standards and presumably requires paid staff to guarantee the public service actually runs.  They could have allowed SWR to run one service in and out late morning and one last thing in the afternoon (to deposit a couple of hundred people in Swanage and collect them at the end of the day), sat back, taking the track access fees and letting SWR do the promotion.

I’m not sure if this is the right way to phrase this, but is there an element of not wanting to cede too much of it to a National Rail operator, since then it could (if there was lots of demand for such a service) end up like Okehampton where it reverted to being part of the national network and not leaving as much room for heritage services? Not that I’m particularly commenting either way on the likelihood or desirability/undesirability of this happening, I just wonder if it is a factor.

 

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

I do despair at the number of preserved railways that think they can economically run a public service in competition with an existing bus.  There is a reason so many branch lines were closed and it wasn't some grand conspiracy. 

In fairness, some of the lines that were closed probably wouldn’t be if the decision was being made today, whether because of increased potential traffic or more recently environmental arguments for public transport. On the other hand though, some lines seem to be pursuing this sort of thing to an excessive level, when they’d probably be better off developing the heritage/museum and in some cases tourist aspects of the line. And I’m not suggesting that museums (and by extension heritage railways) can’t support their local communities or provide spaces for community activities because they often do, in some cases very successfully, but generally in response to a gap in provision elsewhere, not (as with the local bus/public service example here) in competition with provision that already exists.

Edited November 13, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[KeithAnthony]

On 09/11/2023 at 11:03, Robin Brasher said:

The Railway is facing unfair competition from the buses

Well the buses have been there for the past twenty years, the railway hasn't. These facts were known when the railway made the 'Wareham' decision.

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Northmoor said:

The opportunity from a main line connection to the Swanage Railway was to allow one-off excursions 

 

Plus the opportunity to hire out the railway for testing of on track plant or training of drivers in preparation for the leaf fall season!

 

The ability to bring incoming locos in for maintenance (the Bluebell did that with Clan Line last year IIRC) or for film jobs or for galas is another advantage.

 

However running regular through services using said connection is a whole other ballgame....

 

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by phil-b259

[ikcdab]

6 hours ago, Legend said:

 

The destination is a lovely typically English sea side town.

Yes, but that means there are plenty of attractions away from the station so people don't hang around and spend money in the station shop.   Hence why the buffet closed.

6 hours ago, Legend said:

A major attraction has to be the village of Corfe Castle and of course the Castle itself

But the railway is severely constrained by what it can do there. It doesnt even have use of the station approach and the locals won't permit any form of catering at the station.  No parking in village and horrendous traffic.  

6 hours ago, Legend said:

The weather darn sarf is typically better than further north , thinking Keighley, NYMR ,Bo-ness as examples of northern preservation

Maybe, but warm weather drives them onto the beaches, not the trains.

 

Coupled to which, Swanage station is limited to 5 coaches so longer trains can't be run unless top 'n' tailed by a diesel.  They have high fixed costs with an annual wage bill of more than £1M and expensive loco hire agreements. The railway has invested a lot on being a park and ride for Swanage but at heritage rail fare levels, this can never really work when the bus is so cheap. 

 

My own personal opinion is that the focus on the Wareham link has meant the eye has been taken off the ball wrt the main railway and many thousands had been spent on a link that can never ever pay its way.  Just my opinion.

 

They seem to be developing a route map for recovery. It's a great railway and I have every expectation that they can overcome this blip.

 

[009 micro modeller]

11 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

Yes, but that means there are plenty of attractions away from the station so people don't hang around and spend money in the station shop.   Hence why the buffet closed.

 

11 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

The railway has invested a lot on being a park and ride for Swanage but at heritage rail fare levels, this can never really work when the bus is so cheap. 

 

My own personal opinion is that the focus on the Wareham link has meant the eye has been taken off the ball wrt the main railway and many thousands had been spent on a link that can never ever pay its way.  Just my opinion.

There’s an interesting point here because it suggests that there are two distinct, possibly conflicting visions of what the line should be. I’ve been to Swanage and thought that the heritage aspects of the line are beautifully done, nicely restored and recreated stations, and things like the mining museum and narrow gauge line at Norden add to that. However, being a park and ride for Swanage implies that visitors will be visiting the town and not necessarily staying on the railway for very long other than at the beginning and end of their visit, and as you say the high fares (compared to the bus, or a non-heritage railway) don’t encourage park and ride use, even though for park and ride specifically it could sometimes be more convenient than buses. A more basic but cheaper DMU service seems more appropriate to a park and ride scheme, but perhaps not for a high-quality heritage railway (which Swanage definitely is, in my opinion). On the park and ride point, is it likely that a lot of people are just not bothering at all and driving all the way into Swanage, or is the parking and traffic situation there enough to discourage this?
 

I can see how a regular service to Wareham would help with this because it extends the park and ride idea by making it possible for people not to drive at all and to come all the way from home to Swanage by train. But actually having looked up the bus timetable (number 40) it seems to be hourly Monday to Saturday, reducing to every two hours late at night or on Sundays (unless it has a better Sunday service in summer - can anyone who lives locally confirm either way?). The bus service seems pretty good then, except on Sundays (so maybe the answer is to operate some more tourist-focused Wareham rail services to and from Swanage on summer Sundays, but not at other times - but I digress). Unless it’s seen to be unreliable - for instance, some of my local bus services are excellent while some are appalling, but I’m not familiar with the ones around Swanage. The bus even seems to go near enough to the heritage line to connect outside of Swanage itself, especially at Corfe Castle.

 

The other possible tension between heritage and public transport considerations is that, as I understand it, for the trial services rail passengers still had to change (was it at Norden or Corfe though?) for onward connections to Swanage. I don’t know if the longer-term plan is/was for trains to run through or if this would have got in the way of the existing Swanage-Norden services too much.

[Reorte]

Who is the park and ride supposed to be for? A heritage fare park and ride is going to be very unappealing for shoppers and commuters (OK I might be rather more likely to use the train if that's what my local line was, but I appreciate that that's very much not the norm) but sounds more viable for holidaymakers.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Reorte

[Boris]

5 hours ago, Reorte said:

Who is the park and ride supposed to be for? A heritage fare park and ride is going to be very unappealing for shoppers and commuters (OK I might be rather more likely to use the train if that's what my local line was, but I appreciate that that's very much not the norm) but sounds more viable for holidaymakers.

This seems to be a core of the NYMR operation too, the issue the NYMR has found is that once Whitby running became the expectation of the passengers secondary spend went off a cliff edge, you are taking passengers to Whitby to unload their wallets in the shops there.  Places like the Valley have the right idea of keeping people on the railway all day and getting folks to spend more money with the railway.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

This seems to be a core of the NYMR operation too, the issue the NYMR has found is that once Whitby running became the expectation of the passengers secondary spend went off a cliff edge, you are taking passengers to Whitby to unload their wallets in the shops there.  Places like the Valley have the right idea of keeping people on the railway all day and getting folks to spend more money with the railway.

 

Has it increased overall passenger numbers though?

[Boris]

25 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Has it increased overall passenger numbers though?

Not really, no.

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Boris said:

Not really, no.

Then what was the rationale for it? As I said before it doesn’t give them a connection to any National Rail services other than the ones they already connect with at Grosmont, so while I like the idea of an NYMR train to Whitby, unless the idea is just to get passing trade from tourists in Whitby itself I’m not sure what benefit to the line is perceived overall?

[john new]

44 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Then what was the rationale for it? As I said before it doesn’t give them a connection to any National Rail services other than the ones they already connect with at Grosmont, so while I like the idea of an NYMR train to Whitby, unless the idea is just to get passing trade from tourists in Whitby itself I’m not sure what benefit to the line is perceived overall?

As an NYMR member I know that was the original aim, capture riders commencing in Whitby. Don't know if that is how it has panned out though.

[phil-b259]

11 hours ago, Reorte said:

Who is the park and ride supposed to be for? A heritage fare park and ride is going to be very unappealing for shoppers and commuters (OK I might be rather more likely to use the train if that's what my local line was, but I appreciate that that's very much not the norm) but sounds more viable for holidaymakers.

 

In the case of the Swanage Railway its there so they could operate up to Corfe Castle!

 

Much like the Bluebell* who had very specific conditions slapped on them when going north from Hortsed Keynes, the local authorities covering Corfe Castle area made it crystal clear that the the establishment of the park and ride station at Norden (thus keeping people arriving at the railway by car from driving into / through Corfe Castle village / clogging up the streets of Corfe Castle with parked cars) was a pre-requite before the railway could extend operations north of Harmans Cross.

 

In other words the only reason Nordern has to exist because of the railway! Its ability to act as a 'park and ride' for Swangae is a nice bolt on but not the reason for Nordens existence. If the station wasn't there the Swanage would still be restricted to operating between Harmans Cross and Swanage. Simples!

 

*  who were forced to lay on a connecting shuttle bus to East Grinstead at their own expense as a condition of being allowed to use Kingscote as a terminus station in the years before the final push to East Grinstead could be complete)

Edited November 14, 2023 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Then what was the rationale for it? As I said before it doesn’t give them a connection to any National Rail services other than the ones they already connect with at Grosmont, so while I like the idea of an NYMR train to Whitby, unless the idea is just to get passing trade from tourists in Whitby itself I’m not sure what benefit to the line is perceived overall?

 

It enabled them to cash in on the 'trip to the seaside' element of tourism!

 

Whitby itself is quite a tourist draw - but those tourists are not necessarily going to be bothered to drive to Grosmont to take a steam train. On the other hand if they can see one in Whitby itself and board the train there is a much garter chance of them deciding to go for a ride  (even if its only to Grosmont and back)

 

Simialrly there are those in Pickering (or its hinterland that might like a day at the coast - so why not try and encourage them to use the NYMR to get there rather than pile into their cars to go to Scarborough.

Edited November 14, 2023 by phil-b259

[steve45]

I believe Norden is meant to be for parking for people visiting the Heritage Line and some walks around the Corfe Castle area, I don't believe it is a 'Park and Ride' for the seaside resort of Swanage.

It serves to save the Swanage Railway passengers travelling a further 7 mikes down a congested A351 to park in an equally congested Swanage where car parking is expensive and in high season has to be shared with tourists.

There is no other parking available at any other station on the railway

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by steve45

[Railpassion]

NYMR has done well out of Whitby, there was a huge increase in passengers and many trains are very well filled. On some weekends 200/300 passengers can take morning trains out of Whitby to Goathland or Pickering. 

The late afternoon departures leaving Whitby are often full. I recently counted almost 300 people waiting for the 1710.

The town itself is busier than in many years and hugely popular. 

 

 

 

[Northmoor]

12 hours ago, Reorte said:

Who is the park and ride supposed to be for? A heritage fare park and ride is going to be very unappealing for shoppers and commuters (OK I might be rather more likely to use the train if that's what my local line was, but I appreciate that that's very much not the norm) but sounds more viable for holidaymakers.

A car-load of people who are going to spend at least £50 on the train fares then probably another £10-20 on refreshments and gifts are less likely to worry about the cost of parking in Swanage.  A bit like encouraging them to arrive via the train to Wareham; it's a saving to individuals, probably marginal for couples, but if you have three or more in the car, coming by train instead is going to be significantly more expensive.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

It enabled them to cash in on the 'trip to the seaside' element of tourism!

 

Whitby itself is quite a tourist draw - but those tourists are not necessarily going to be bothered to drive to Grosmont to take a steam train. On the other hand if they can see one in Whitby itself and board the train there is a much garter chance of them deciding to go for a ride  (even if its only to Grosmont and back)

That’s what I thought - I was just responding to the suggestion that it had decreased secondary spend and not really improved overall visitor numbers (anecdotally the Whitby trains seemed to be busy though, when I was there). I can also see how the previous public transport journey (on normal service trains from Whitby and then involving a change onto the NYMR at Grosmont) would have been less appealing. Would people doing it this way also have had a long wait at Grosmont in the past?

 

31 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

A bit like encouraging them to arrive via the train to Wareham; it's a saving to individuals, probably marginal for couples, but if you have three or more in the car, coming by train instead is going to be significantly more expensive.

It potentially works better for people coming from much further afield (where the car journey might be particularly long or inconvenient), although I suspect there isn’t really an equivalent in Swanage to the day trip traffic from London (by rail) through East Grinstead to the Bluebell. Anyway, as highlighted previously it at least sounds as though the existing bus service provides a reasonable link from Wareham station to the Swanage Railway and Swanage itself. Again a through journey by heritage rail might be preferable for some passengers, but maybe only if they particularly want to travel from Wareham. Whitby seems a bit different because it isn’t really based around a desire to connect with National Rail services (even though it uses the Network Rail line to get there).

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Would people doing it this way also have had a long wait at Grosmont in the past?

 

 

 

Given the national rail service to Whitby amounts to a mere 6 trains a day roughly every 2 hours during the summer timetable (it’s a paltry 4 trains in the Winter)  then yes if anyone wanted to use the train to get to Grosmont then it would severely limit their day!

 

 

(Note it’s precisely this lack of national rail services which is why there are spare paths from Whitby to Grosmont in the first place)

Edited November 15, 2023 by phil-b259