CCW Wooden Gresley Coaches

[roythebus1]

ISTR Adrian's idea was to drill through the bush and the self-tapping screw self-taps into the coach floor, not the whitemetal bush. That would take quite a lot of force and the bush would rotate in the mounting block.

[Rosie Taylor]

13 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

ISTR Adrian's idea was to drill through the bush and the self-tapping screw self-taps into the coach floor, not the whitemetal bush. That would take quite a lot of force and the bush would rotate in the mounting block.

 

Ah, that makes more sense! Thanks

[Rosie Taylor]

I've put a pause on the beading, as I realised it would be a lot easier if I had decent drawings to refer to regarding the layout. Not that I'm being too precise, but Isinglass do very affordable drawings so it seems foolish not to order a couple. I'll get back on it once they arrive.

 

In the meantime I've completed the ABS whitemetal bogies; one pair built as intended from kit, the other I ended up only using the sideframes and soldered them to a Comet brass chassis (due to missing pieces).

 

 

The ABS bogie kits are great and very well detailed, the only improvement made by the Comet brass frame is the etched brakegear and rodding (something I don't think whitemetal is suited to). Next to do is fit them to the coach, I've marked and drilled pilot holes but will wait until later in the build so I can set the correct ride height. For now they've had a coat of primer (the wheel surfaces will be cleaned of paint!)

 

 

For those who are familiar with the ABS bogies and wondering why I've built the coupling mount in a strange way (splitting the end of the bogie), this is to seat a Kadee coupling box.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Rosie Taylor

[Rosie Taylor]

The drawings from Isinglass arrived, and very impressive they are too (to my eye)! I'm not going for complete prototypical accuracy as mentioned, but they will be a great aid and sanity-checker. Happily, comparing the coach bodies to the drawings show that the shape of the roofs is right, as are most important dimensions. Beading is outlined as well, which will help greatly.

 

One issue that I noticed is the bufferbeams seem to be much further forward on the model than on the prototype, ending almost flush with the coach ends. I'll need to check photos but I'm fairly sure I'll need to move them back - not too much work with a razor saw.

 

 

I've included this photo as an advertisement of the quality and content of the drawings as a happy customer (although I can't speak to their complete accuracy). I've tried to take this at an oblique enough angle to prevent copyright issues - the last thing I want is to lose Isinglass money rather than send people their way! If anyone has other thoughts I'll happily remove or obscure the photos.

[Bucoops]

There should be 3mm between the headstocks/buffer beams and the bow end of the body at each end - not counting the corridor connection. 

[Rosie Taylor]

It's been a while since my last update, but I've finally almost finished the beading...on one coach 🙄.

 

 

Looking at these photos, I've just remembered I still need to do the vertical beading on each end, as well as the doors on one side (ignore the one bent horizontal piece)! As you can see, the beading is a different colour from the teak sides and so stands out - I lightly sanded/filed the styrene to blend the pieces together, but this of course removed the paint. It was still worth painting the beading beforehand though, as now I just need to touch up the "top" surface rather than the difficult edges.

 

It's very slow work but rewarding. I like how it looks and how much it transforms the coach, accepting that it's more an impression than an exact copy, although I have been trying to follow the beading spacing and layout from the drawings. The main difference is that on this model the beading is all the same depth and on the same level, where as on the prototype (I believe) the vertical parts of the coach between the windows are recessed slightly.

 

After this, I'll be looking at fitting the door ventilators. From photos these look like painted metal, can anyone confirm, and if so, suggest a paint colour? I may try using my brown mix that I made to match the teak sides.

[Bucoops]

The vent hoods are also teak :)

 

[Rosie Taylor]

On 11/12/2023 at 09:09, Bucoops said:

The vent hoods are also teak :)

 

Ah! I was wrong then, but I think I might try painting them the same colour as the beading. I'm hoping weathering blends them in, they are very small pieces?

Edited December 12, 2023 by Rosie Taylor

[roythebus1]

On 30/11/2023 at 23:06, Rosie Taylor said:

I've put a pause on the beading, as I realised it would be a lot easier if I had decent drawings to refer to regarding the layout. Not that I'm being too precise, but Isinglass do very affordable drawings so it seems foolish not to order a couple. I'll get back on it once they arrive.

 

In the meantime I've completed the ABS whitemetal bogies; one pair built as intended from kit, the other I ended up only using the sideframes and soldered them to a Comet brass chassis (due to missing pieces).

 

 

The ABS bogie kits are great and very well detailed, the only improvement made by the Comet brass frame is the etched brakegear and rodding (something I don't think whitemetal is suited to). Next to do is fit them to the coach, I've marked and drilled pilot holes but will wait until later in the build so I can set the correct ride height. For now they've had a coat of primer (the wheel surfaces will be cleaned of paint!)

 

 

For those who are familiar with the ABS bogies and wondering why I've built the coupling mount in a strange way (splitting the end of the bogie), this is to seat a Kadee coupling box.

The ABS bogies were designed to take the Peco/Hornby Dublo coupling. Kadees weren't widely used here in the early 1970s when these bogies were produced. It's lucky that Kadee and Peco/HD use the same height from rail level! Adrian also produced a tension lock bracket to fit on this coupling mounting. 

[Rosie Taylor]

On 12/12/2023 at 20:06, roythebus1 said:

The ABS bogies were designed to take the Peco/Hornby Dublo coupling. Kadees weren't widely used here in the early 1970s when these bogies were produced. It's lucky that Kadee and Peco/HD use the same height from rail level! Adrian also produced a tension lock bracket to fit on this coupling mounting. 

The bogies are very well designed, their only "fault" being the limitation of the materials (and perhaps the manufacturing methods) available at the time. I can see that they must have been considered quite deluxe, even now they assemble into a solid, free running unit. They've been really easy to convert to kadee as well, and as it's all soldered into a solid piece, very strong!

[roythebus1]

Yes, Adrian was one of the design engineers for Concorde, so it had to be properly made. The best we had at the time was cast whitemetal. Adrian was maybe one of the best in that field.

[Rosie Taylor]

Progress has slowed somewhat as I've ran out of thin superglue that I was using to help with the beading (I would put a tiny dab on each corner for reinforcement). I've been busying myself preparing the small whitemetal details; door vents, gangways and electrical connections. All are very good - the vents are from Dart Castings and are well cast, considering their small size (no flash and a good, consistent shape). The stuff from Comet/Wizard is good as always, the gangways are solid but look right. I did consider making working gangway connectors(?) from folded paper as shown by others here (including on @MikeTrice's excellent threads) and that I've done before for my Mk1/Mk2 Coaches, but I don't know how I'll run or display these coaches so will leave for now.

 

The castings have been cleaned and fettled, and are ready for priming and painting - I hope to get some more modelling done over the Christmas period 🙂. In the meantime, I hope everyone enjoys the Holidays!

 

[Rosie Taylor]

One of the most interesting parts of this hobby to me is the highs and lows, the tedium vs reward. I commited to doing the beading on the coaches a certain way, and this became a chore to complete...and that's what I decide to spend my spare time doing! The reason is eventually apparent though; the satisfaction from having completed the beading makes it more than worth it. It might not look perfect, but to my eyes it vastly improves the coaches and from normal viewing distance really looks "right", despite small innacuracies and the odd wonky vertical.

 

To smooth and help hide the joins between pieces, I applied little dobs of Vallejo Plastic Putty. Once dry I sanded it all down, carefully.

 

Despite pre-painting the white styrene used for the beading, it needed a lot of touching up and repainting - sanding/filing the top surfaces obviously removed a lot of paint. Still glad I painted beforehand though, as it was just the "tops" that needed paint and not the tricky "sides".

 

One final stage before I move on from the beading was to add some "pre-weathering"(?)

 

I applied a coat of varnish, then I painted all over with burnt umber watercolour...

 

I used cottonbuds and water to wipe off almost all the paint, leaving traces in the corners and edges of the panels. I meant to use oil paint, but didn't look too closely when in the hobbyshop and bought the wrong tube - thankfully it still achieved the desired effect! The end result is subtle, but to my eye it adds some depth and helps blend the beading with the varnished wood of the original kit.

 

Next step is to add the ventilators above the doors, and scribe the edges of the doors themselves. However, I've noticed for the first time that the windows in the doors are far too short, when I add the vents in the proper position it's immediately obvious. I'm half tempted to try and enlarge them using a small saw, but I don't think I'd manage without damage the delicate sides. Something to ponder...

[Rosie Taylor]

Moving on from the sides, I'm focusing on the roof - this has been bugging me for a while and it's time to finally sort it out. Getting the shape right and smoothing the surface will unlock being able to fit the rainstrips, roofvents, etc. The join between the removable roof piece and the ends is very close (almost zero gap) and is a testament to both the manufacture of the kit and the assembly by the original owner - but there is a slight mismatch in profile when held down properly.

 

 

I secured the roof down as firmly as I could for now - I'll be using long brass screws through the floor at each end, but am waiting on the correct nuts arriving (the nuts will be permanently attached to the inside of the roof). I masked and primed the roof...I want to pretend masking a straight line across the end had some clever purpose, but I just had a brain fart and forgot what the end profile of these coaches looked like (even though I have prototype photos and drawings)!

 

 

 

The primer here isn't to prepare the surface for paint, but to help me mark out and determine what I need to change about the roof profile (and where to sand rough/incorrect spots). The ends need to have a sharper, noticeable angle change between the vertical and horizontal, as it is now it has a smooth rounded end. I traced the Isinglass drawings I have and made card templates that I can offer up to the coach and keep checking as I reshape the profile.

 

 

 

I've started sanding the ends and am very pleased with progress, but have reached the photo limit for one post! Thanks again to everyone who has been leaving likes, it's very rewarding and encouraging.

[Rosie Taylor]

Part 2 of the previous post - I've missed out some photos because I apparently took them "the wrong way" with my phone and they were flipped when trying to upload. Incredibly frustrating.

After the ends were marked I simply sanded down to the line, and am much more pleased with the profile. It now matches my templates I traced from drawings, but more importantly "looks right". I also sanded and refined the horizontal top rail along each side of the roof - this will be bare wood. It's slightly over size but again, looks correct to the eye. It needs some more refining at each end, as can be seen from the photos, but I'm on the right track.

 

 

Happily this allowed me to finally make a start on the roof furniture, after re-priming and giving another, finer sand. I marked a centerline for the roof-vents and laid the roof alongside the drawing to mark the positions. I'm using some LNER torpedo vents I had in my bits box - something I never thought I'd use! By happy coincidence they were from ABS (so the same origin as the bogies), and I had exactly enough for the two coaches! There was a fair amount of flash but they cleaned up well. The coach is really starting to take shape now.
 

 

Next step is to mark out and fit the rainstrips, does anyone know the sizes of these? I can't find a measurement for them anywhere and it's hard to gauge the thickness/depth from photos.

Edited February 3 by Rosie Taylor

[AJCT]

Like another contributor I'm late to this party, but I might mention that I inherited several of these CCW coach kits from my late father's collection.  He in turn had acquired them way back circa 1960 as part of a job lot of model railway stuff he got second-hand, to get him started on a 16' x 6' layout in a spare room in the large house we lived in back then.  Some were part-built - IIRC there were 3 Gresley-type "teak" vehicles (a corridor 3rd, a buffet car and a gangwayed full brake), but only the last of which was actually runnable!  They may have been the later-issue models as they had cast metal rather than wooden ends.  In my inexperienced youth I had a go at applying beading to the full brake using narrow strips of card - not very successfully as you can imagine.  There were also 2 or 3 of the Pullman cars (part-built) and a few built-up LMS-type suburbans with wheels/bogies but no couplings.  I'd have to admit my teenage attempts to fit couplings to these were not a success either !  Ever since they've languishing in a box under my layout and it's highly unlikely I'll ever complete them, so if anyone is interested I'd be prepared to donate them for the price of the postage....

 

Alasdair

 

[Rosie Taylor]

14 hours ago, AJCT said:

Like another contributor I'm late to this party, but I might mention that I inherited several of these CCW coach kits from my late father's collection.  He in turn had acquired them way back circa 1960 as part of a job lot of model railway stuff he got second-hand, to get him started on a 16' x 6' layout in a spare room in the large house we lived in back then.  Some were part-built - IIRC there were 3 Gresley-type "teak" vehicles (a corridor 3rd, a buffet car and a gangwayed full brake), but only the last of which was actually runnable!  They may have been the later-issue models as they had cast metal rather than wooden ends.  In my inexperienced youth I had a go at applying beading to the full brake using narrow strips of card - not very successfully as you can imagine.  There were also 2 or 3 of the Pullman cars (part-built) and a few built-up LMS-type suburbans with wheels/bogies but no couplings.  I'd have to admit my teenage attempts to fit couplings to these were not a success either !  Ever since they've languishing in a box under my layout and it's highly unlikely I'll ever complete them, so if anyone is interested I'd be prepared to donate them for the price of the postage....

 

Alasdair

 

Well if you wouldn't use them...

 

Someone else offered me a Pullman coach earlier in this thread and I said no, but I think that's because I was in the middle of doing the beading! Now I'm onto other tasks I'm actually really enjoying making these coaches - the "crudeness" of their origin (compared to modern models) allows me to relax a little regarding accuracy, and just enjoy the modelling. Having said that, after these two I think I'll have a break from coaches for a bit, so it could be quite some time until I got to them...

 

If nobody else wants them then I'll happily send you postage etc in exchange, but I'll wait first to see if anybody else wants the opportunity for some "vintage" modelling

[Rosie Taylor]

You may have noticed the frequency of posts has slowed down since the start of the project - as with many modellers I'm a habitual project starter and I've been spending some time flitting between this and getting round to finishing my A4 "Sir Nigel Gresley" - seems appropriate, as they'll pose nicely together for a photo when completed! I find that alternating between projects aids motivation and, if I'm stuck on a problem, coming back to it fresh always helps.

I finally got round to securely attaching the roofs to the bodies. The friction fit was pretty good and may have worked by itself, but I wanted to screw the pieces together for two reasons - I didn't want to pick the coach up by the roof and risk the body falling to the floor, and the roof needs to sit precisely with the body to maintain a smooth roof profile.

I'm using brass 8BA screws that come from old Triang Mk1s (I have a lot of these!) They're useful because they have a shoulder and a short thread, and were the perfect size. I then cut some brass plates from scrap brass etch.

 

 

Small holes were drilled to take short pieces of brass wire, which would be pressed into the wood and help anchor the plates (along with the glue, of course). I soldered all together and bent the brass plates to roughly the internal profile of the roof (forgive the dirty cutting mat, I have a new one but haven't got round to swapping them 🙄!

 

 

Here's where it then went wrong, in three ways...

I measured incorrectly and the brass screw threads were slightly too long. I'd planned (cleverly, I thought) to have the shoulder butt up against the nut when tightly closed, so there was no chance of over-tightening the screws. First time I tried it the screw pushed through the nut and popped the brass plate away from the roof. So out came the hacksaw, a washer on each screw and first problem solved.

 

Second time I tried tightening the screws the nut came away from the plate - I hadn't gotten a very good solder joint (I think, because the brass nut is more of a heatsink than the thin plate). So I cleaned, fluxed and tried again with more heat, so far so good.

Final and most avoidable problem was that I'd used superglue to bond the brass to wood. On top of that, I was so proud of the little brass assemblies that I'd polished the brass with a fibreglass pen, making it a terrible surface for the glue! I knew from the start that I should have used epoxy, but didn't have any and was impatient. Of course, when the brittle superglue failed I checked and turned out I do have epoxy after all...

Finally fixed to the roof, the joint is very firm and it's allowed me to finesse the roof profiles on both coaches. Lessons learned!

[roythebus1]

You're doing a great job there. These sort of modelling skills are hard to find these days. Everyone seems to just want perfection out of a box from China.

[Rosie Taylor]

On 11/02/2024 at 13:16, roythebus1 said:

You're doing a great job there. These sort of modelling skills are hard to find these days. Everyone seems to just want perfection out of a box from China.

Thank you for the kind words - for me, as with many others, adapting something older and making it (hopefully) "better" - thats where the fun is!

 

Now I've sorted the shape of the roof and (therefore) the coach ends, I'm seeing I need to redo the bufferbeams. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the bufferbeams need to be moved further back... I also destroyed the delicate wood by attempting to drill them out for the whitemetal buffers I have!

 

 

The easiest solution, I think, is to make new beams from plasticard and glue into place. I cut away the wooden representations and filed smooth, measuring with calipers and a square to make sure the new bufferbeams would sit in approximately the right place.

 

 

You can also see in this view the hole for the roof-fixing screw - I may reinforce this with a brass washer, but will wait until I see how much room I have once the bufferbeams are back on.

 

Here's the new beam with the buffers glued in and a slot cut for the (dummy) coupling hook. I got a little ambitious and drilled and fitted "rivets" to give a feel of the real thing, but they looked very messy so were filed off. I have 3d rivet transfers (Archers?) that I could fit, but I think will leave as is. The underframe, as with a lot of this coach, is fairly crude (not a negative) and adding too much detail in some areas would just highlight what I can't improve.

 

 

The back of the beam has a circular channel filed out to give clearance for the fixing screws, and a step at each side so to fit between the remaining wooden underframe. The close-up is cruel, but at least I got round to fitting my new clean cutting mat!

 

[Rosie Taylor]

I was at Model Rail Scotland on Friday, where I'd arranged to collect some other CCW coaches kindly donated by @AJCT (who was helping out at the beautiful little P4 layout "High House Colliery"). Although not part of this current build, I thought the information gained might be interesting...

 

Original packaging for CCW coaches

 

 

One question answered, and another mystery! So the wood used for the coaches is mahogany, but does "hon" mean "Honduran Mahogany"? If so, the phrase "British Honduran Mahogany" is a little confusing, even if it does make logical sense (I believe "Honduran" is the species, no matter where it is/was grown)

 

 

The coaches are a little better built than mine, with the gap for the clear window inserts much more consistent

 

 

The coaches are a slightly later issue, with cast whitemetal (incorrect) ends rather than all-wood.

 

 

Some lovely original flyers/paper packaged with some of the coaches.

 

 

The coaches are mostly Gresley, like the subject of this thread, and older Pullman. Up until now I've had little interest in Pullman coaches but am hooked. I look forward to working on all these, ideally making a rake of Gresley CCW coaches (even though it may not be a realistic formation). To not overload myself (and potentially becoming burnt out on too-big a project), I'll be finishing my current coaches as detailed in this thread, and then taking a good amount of time working on very different projects before starting these. It will also be useful having some time to collect all the parts and drawings I'll need.

 

This post is getting long enough already, but I now have 2 or 3 LMS CCW coaches looking for a new home, I'll post more details once I've taken photos and confirmed what diagram they are.

[BernardTPM]

British Honduras, now Belize, perhaps?

[Rosie Taylor]

40 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

British Honduras, now Belize, perhaps?

That would make sense! Fascinating, you learn something new every day

[Rosie Taylor]

Apologies for the lack of updates - Model Rail Scotland last week inspired me to finish some other projects (weathering BR Blue diesels) and clear more space on my workbench. I've been back at work on the coaches but it's been a little "all over the place"!

 

Now the bogies are mounted I set to work fixing the height of the coaches. As one set uses cast whitemetal bogies, and the other brass etched (Comet) versions, both were off by different amounts. I filed about 1.5mm from the whitemetal mounting plate/spigot, using the coach underframe as a guide for the file (protected by tape). This means the final mounting surface is square with the coach and, on flat track, it doesnt look like it's tilting.

 

 

The bogie plates were fixed as you can see, with tiny screws into the wood (and a recess for a cast round part on "top"). I'm fairly sure I've deviated from the original intended way of fixing, but it seems to work well. The coach on the left is now at the correct height, measuring from railhead to the top of the roof - the gap between bogie and underframe might be off a little but looks right to me and leaves just enough clearance for the wheels. The one on the right has the Comet etched bogies and has since been adjusted.

 

 

Finally, I've started on the beading at each end - beginning with attaching the horizontal pieces with solvent and tape. I'll be using lots of prototype photos and the drawings for this, as I need it to look "right".

 

[Rosie Taylor]

Work has continued on the ends of the coaches. I fixed the outer beading with solvent, and added tiny drops of superglue at the corners for added security. This allowed me to add filler to the top ridge and file to match the roof curve, which really helped the beading match the prototype rather than just looking like styrene glued on! It'll look even better once painted and blended in (promise)

 

 

The inner horizontal strips were added by eye - being wood, each end is different and there arent really any true reference surfaces on which to put my micro engineer's square, so I've done what looked right. It kind of worked. Once painted, and the other details are added, it'll look better (the camera is quite cruel). Something to try and get better when I do the next batch of coaches, sometime in the future.

 

 

I can finally add the gangways - it's starting to look like a real coach!

 

 

Work has continued on the roofs, adding the rainstrips. I found the centrepoint first, then let the natural droop of the styrene help align the gentle curve. I'm cutting the rainstrips back a little further than on the real thing - that's because I dont want to bridge the gap between roof piece and end (I did try it but it ended up just drawing attention to the gap). Pay no attention to the time travelling Class 25 in the background (or maybe my workspace is on a preserved line...)?

 

 

What may be the final pieces (except transfers) also arrived today - some goodies from Dart Castings, who I've always found are great. I did find some beautiful looking 3d printed parts for the underframe, but I think whitemetal castings are more "in keeping" with the vintage of this build!