15” gauge prototype information needed

[scalerailmodelling]

On 01/12/2023 at 20:34, Nearholmer said:

A few more scale-gauge combinations to put into the melting pot if you enjoy making your own rolling stock for very narrow gauges:

 

- 1:48, 9mm gauge, representing 18”. There are a fair few potentially useful, de-militarisable, things in the Tamiya 1:48 range, and of course oodles and of (expensive to import these days) items aimed at the US 0 gauge market. The old Jouef Decauville skips work well at this scale.

 

- 1:35, 16.5mm gauge, representing 600mm. Absolutely loads of potentially useful things, including civilian figures, from military kit makers. The skip wagon that Peco make (or did make?) was much better for this or 1:32 than any other scale.

 

- 1:32, 16.5mm gauge, representing 20”/500mm. Vast amounts of agricultural stuff at this scale, more tractors than you can shake a stick at, plus figures. I think Scalelink may still sell WDLR kits at this scale, using it to represent 600mm/2ft.

Thanks for this, I do indeed enjoy making my own stock and it’s usually much more cost effective that RTR

[scalerailmodelling]

On 01/12/2023 at 10:43, Mike Bellamy said:

 

You should investigate the John Knowles company of Woodville, South Derbyshire who had an 18" line serving their clay pipe factory. Hunslet loco "Jack" is preserved at Statfold and sister "Gwen" is over in USA. This book tells you all you need to know about the company and their railways. Don't pay silly Ebay prices (I saw one at £83 !!) as it is available new from the Industrial Railway Society. 

 

https://irsshop.co.uk/Tramways-Railways-of-John-Knowles

 

Where are you as the 7mm Narrow Gauge Assn has a modelling day at Mickleover (Derby) in January where there are going to be 2 or 3 O-9 layouts and the Assn's main exhibition is at Burton in June - and only a few miles from the John Knowles site - but it's all under a housing estate now !

.

Thanks I’ll have a look in to this, I would never have thought of a clay pipe factory having their own line

[scalerailmodelling]

On 30/11/2023 at 22:21, Edge said:

One of the principal movers in the 15” world was Arthur Heywood - he experimented with multiple minimum gauge railways and settled upon 15” as the narrowest possible gauge for a railway designed to do useful work. 
 

His main hope was that the railway would see military use, but he was also hoping that they would be useful for estate railways of exactly the type you are describing. So I don’t think it’s implausible at all. 
 

a railway would have been a substantial investment for any estate, even if it was 15” gauge, so you’ll need to consider what traffic it might have carried (the Eaton hall railway carried fuel to the main house, but timber would also be plausible, as would output from an estate brewery etc.) but that sort of detail is half the fun :)

 

have a look for Heywood’s own railway at Duffield bank and the Eaton Hall railway, they may be of some use :)

Thanks I’ll have a look in to this

[scalerailmodelling]

On 01/12/2023 at 09:09, Nearholmer said:

Here are some photos of photos, so poor quality, of some of my former 0n10.5/0n9 bits and pieces. The loco in the first one is the late-surviving  Sylvasprings Watercress 18” one, but I can’t for the life of my remember what I based the bottom one on,  something French on 500mm, I think.

 

 

These look great thanks for the pics and info :)

[009 micro modeller]

7 minutes ago, scalerailmodelling said:

Thanks, I was thinking something modern industrial like the Brickworks at Cherry Orchard Lane, I believe they operated their 2ft gauge line until 1995

There’s a few in mining and other specialist applications still operating. There’s also a light agricultural/industrial railway near me, which I have modelled, hand-worked but still in use last time I checked and basically unchanged for about a century.

[john new]

On 30/11/2023 at 22:21, Edge said:

One of the principal movers in the 15” world was Arthur Heywood - he experimented with multiple minimum gauge railways and settled upon 15” as the narrowest possible gauge for a railway designed to do useful work. 
 

His main hope was that the railway would see military use, but he was also hoping that they would be useful for estate railways of exactly the type you are describing. So I don’t think it’s implausible at all. 
 

a railway would have been a substantial investment for any estate, even if it was 15” gauge, so you’ll need to consider what traffic it might have carried (the Eaton hall railway carried fuel to the main house, but timber would also be plausible, as would output from an estate brewery etc.) but that sort of detail is half the fun :)

 

have a look for Heywood’s own railway at Duffield bank and the Eaton Hall railway, they may be of some use :)

Plenty of military narrow gauge of around the 18” gauge, albeit a lot was for hand pushed trolleys for ammo etc., from store to gun. 
My sketch plan of the tracks at High Angle Battery on Portland - plenty about it on line with photos. Also two others locally for carrying torpedoes out for test firing. One along the Breakwater the other on a pier.

 
This is the one on the Breakwater still in situ in 2011, from memory though it was 2ft gauge. My image/copyright.

[scalerailmodelling]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

There’s a few in mining and other specialist applications still operating. There’s also a light agricultural/industrial railway near me, which I have modelled, hand-worked but still in use last time I checked and basically unchanged for about a century.

Ah interesting, do you know the names of any industrial ones that are still operating?

[scalerailmodelling]

1 hour ago, john new said:

Plenty of military narrow gauge of around the 18” gauge, albeit a lot was for hand pushed trolleys for ammo etc., from store to gun. 
My sketch plan of the tracks at High Angle Battery on Portland - plenty about it on line with photos. Also two others locally for carrying torpedoes out for test firing. One along the Breakwater the other on a pier.

 
This is the one on the Breakwater still in situ in 2011, from memory though it was 2ft gauge. My image/copyright.

Thats really interesting thank you

[009 micro modeller]

54 minutes ago, scalerailmodelling said:

Ah interesting, do you know the names of any industrial ones that are still operating?

My local one (2’ gauge) which I mentioned is here, and my 009 model of it here (photo and blog courtesy of @Phil Parker but I still have my own photos somewhere). The more well-known watercress operation in the UK, which also continued until fairly recently (it might still operate in a limited way) was the Sylvasprings/Vitacress one at Bere Regis in Dorset, which in contrast to the smaller watercress lines such as those in Hertfordshire was loco-worked (they also had a smaller operation elsewhere in Dorset with powered trolleys, which I think could be set in motion to run driverless along the line until knocked out of gear by a ramp in the track). Possibly of particular interest given your 09 idea, since Sylvasprings is 18” gauge.

 

Other industries worth looking at in general are peat (now virtually all gone for environmental reasons, but still using railways up until the end) and the Forest of Dean free mines (though these were always hand and cable-hauled, not loco). I’ve had a go at something loosely inspired by these in 009 but might have a more serious attempt in future, and possibly in 09 where the small wagons can be modelled more easily. They have used various gauges including 2’, 18” and I think 20” or 21”. This gives a rough idea but there are more photos online or in books: http://www.ingr.co.uk/vids_dig31.html 

 

Anything involving specialist mining or tunnel construction is potentially still of interest (Northern line Battersea extension and Crossrail construction involved a narrow gauge railway, for instance*). I don’t think Honister slate mine railway is in use any more but it did continue into the 21st century. Finally and perhaps a bit more randomly I really like Littlethorpe Pottery, but I’m not sure whether the railway is still used partly to illustrate the history of the site and the ceramics process rather than as a purely industrial operation. Littlethorpe again is 18” gauge.

 

 

*as if we needed another narrow gauge railway from Paddington to Whitechapel…

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, john new said:

Plenty of military narrow gauge of around the 18” gauge, albeit a lot was for hand pushed trolleys for ammo etc., from store to gun. 
My sketch plan of the tracks at High Angle Battery on Portland - plenty about it on line with photos. Also two others locally for carrying torpedoes out for test firing. One along the Breakwater the other on a pier.

 
This is the one on the Breakwater still in situ in 2011, from memory though it was 2ft gauge. My image/copyright.

I did do a Hurst Castle-inspired layout once, but it was 009 and very loosely based - a more closely themed micro layout of inside the fort in 09 might be a nice idea. Plenty of inspiration for military 18” gauge locos from Woolwich Arsenal etc.

[john new]

Something I forgot earlier. When originally built the N G/miniature tracks at the lavender farm just off the A64 east of Malton ran tourist trains but also used the line for bringing the crop in to the processing plant (distillery?). I am not 100% certain of the name and there is more than one probably Wolds Way Lavender.

Edited December 3, 2023 by john new

[scalerailmodelling]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

My local one (2’ gauge) which I mentioned is here, and my 009 model of it here (photo and blog courtesy of @Phil Parker but I still have my own photos somewhere). The more well-known watercress operation in the UK, which also continued until fairly recently (it might still operate in a limited way) was the Sylvasprings/Vitacress one at Bere Regis in Dorset, which in contrast to the smaller watercress lines such as those in Hertfordshire was loco-worked (they also had a smaller operation elsewhere in Dorset with powered trolleys, which I think could be set in motion to run driverless along the line until knocked out of gear by a ramp in the track). Possibly of particular interest given your 09 idea, since Sylvasprings is 18” gauge.

 

Other industries worth looking at in general are peat (now virtually all gone for environmental reasons, but still using railways up until the end) and the Forest of Dean free mines (though these were always hand and cable-hauled, not loco). I’ve had a go at something loosely inspired by these in 009 but might have a more serious attempt in future, and possibly in 09 where the small wagons can be modelled more easily. They have used various gauges including 2’, 18” and I think 20” or 21”. This gives a rough idea but there are more photos online or in books: http://www.ingr.co.uk/vids_dig31.html 

 

Anything involving specialist mining or tunnel construction is potentially still of interest (Northern line Battersea extension and Crossrail construction involved a narrow gauge railway, for instance*). I don’t think Honister slate mine railway is in use any more but it did continue into the 21st century. Finally and perhaps a bit more randomly I really like Littlethorpe Pottery, but I’m not sure whether the railway is still used partly to illustrate the history of the site and the ceramics process rather than as a purely industrial operation. Littlethorpe again is 18” gauge.

 

 

*as if we needed another narrow gauge railway from Paddington to Whitechapel…

Thanks that is really interesting, especially the watercress lines, I had heard of nurseries using lines but not specifically watercress, another one for my research list - beats watching the telly 🙂

[scalerailmodelling]

1 hour ago, john new said:

Something I forgot earlier. When originally built the N G/miniature tracks at the lavender farm just off the A64 east of Malton ran tourist trains but also used the line for bringing the crop in to the processing plant (distillery?). I am not 100% certain of the name and there is more than one probably Wolds Way Lavender.

Thanks, a distillery railway would definitely be of interest, I will look in to that 👍

[Mike Bellamy]

There has been a local layout based on the Pipeworks but I can't find photos at the moment. However some other links below may help

 

7mmNGA picture galley of O-9 layouts  https://7mmnga.org.uk/galleryO-9.php

 

The Brickworks which I think is O-14   https://7mmnga.org.uk/view_gallery.php?gallery=9

 

Mynydd Mawr brick works Standard 7mm and O-16.5 by Don Mason (known as Member Number One as he founded the 7mmNGA with an advert in Railway Modeller in 1979)

https://7mmnga.org.uk/view_gallery.php?gallery=43

.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

If, as seems the case, you are prepared to encompass 18” gauge, the field becomes very fertile, certainly compared with 15” for genuine “industrial” use. If you are prepared/able to splash out a bit, Mark Smither’s book on locomotive worked 18” steam railways is the best single source, almost certainly definitive given the work he put into it. Coming down progressively to lines that were worked by horses, internal combustion locos, battery locos, and by hand, there is a lot of inspiration to choose from, so many that it’s difficult to know where to start. Anyway, a random list from SE England ‘off the top of my head’;

 

- a wide range of military and military production and construction uses;

 

- coal from river barges or standard gauge siding to water pumping station;

 

- clay pit to brick, tile, pottery, or pipe works;

 

- poultry farming;

 

- market gardening;

 

- watercress farming;

 

- gypsum mining;

 

- hearthstone and whiting-stone mining;

 

- fuller’s earth mining;

 

- storage of museum artifacts in old stone mines during wartime;

 

- storage of ‘bonded goods’ (alcohol and tobacco) in old stone mines during peacetime;

 

- mushroom growing in old stone mines;

 

- a very mysterious WW2 line into caves (probably former stone mines), which is suspected to have been used to store royal archive material, but may have had something to do with the SE Battle Group command centre;

 

- “alley and archway” systems in urban areas to serve factories and warehouses;

 

- internal transport of materials at major railway works (Wolverton, which I admit is pushing the SE England boundary a bit).

 

18” was never anything like as widely used as 24”, but it did have a niche, especially where space was very cramped.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Nearholmer

[john new]

11 hours ago, john new said:

Something I forgot earlier. When originally built the N G/miniature tracks at the lavender farm just off the A64 east of Malton ran tourist trains but also used the line for bringing the crop in to the processing plant (distillery?). I am not 100% certain of the name and there is more than one probably Wolds Way Lavender.

Getting overly forgetful of what I have on my own website - it was/is Wolds Way Lavender and I have a photo gallery on line from a visit several years ago. https://www.island-publishing.co.uk/jalbums/Wolds Way/Wolds Way/album/index.html

 

[009 micro modeller]

11 hours ago, scalerailmodelling said:

Thanks that is really interesting, especially the watercress lines, I had heard of nurseries using lines but not specifically watercress, another one for my research list - beats watching the telly 🙂

There was an interesting location in Hampshire (Cuckoo Hill I think) using Moors Valley-designed and built stock on a 7 1/4” gauge (and I think passenger-only) tourist line, alongside what seem to be the remains of a hand-worked wider NG nursery/greenhouse line. Although not sure if they ever worked at the same time (I haven’t been there myself) and the miniature line might have closed as well now:

 

 

13 hours ago, john new said:

Something I forgot earlier. When originally built the N G/miniature tracks at the lavender farm just off the A64 east of Malton ran tourist trains but also used the line for bringing the crop in to the processing plant (distillery?). I am not 100% certain of the name and there is more than one probably Wolds Way Lavender.

I think they may still use it for transporting Lavender, though not over as great a distance as originally designed.

[ColinK]

Although it is 2’ gauge, something similar could be done in 15”, and it is still operational, the Poppleton Community Nursery Railway.  Indeed I could be tempted to gaveva go myself.

 

 

[Artless Bodger]

The first ones to enter my mind when 18" and industrial were mentioned were - Horwich and Crewe works.

[scalerailmodelling]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

If, as seems the case, you are prepared to encompass 18” gauge, the field becomes very fertile, certainly compared with 15” for genuine “industrial” use. If you are prepared/able to splash out a bit, Mark Smither’s book on locomotive worked 18” steam railways is the best single source, almost certainly definitive given the work he put into it. Coming down progressively to lines that were worked by horses, internal combustion locos, battery locos, and by hand, there is a lot of inspiration to choose from, so many that it’s difficult to know where to start. Anyway, a random list from SE England ‘off the top of my head’;

 

- a wide range of military and military production and construction uses;

 

- coal from river barges or standard gauge siding to water pumping station;

 

- clay pit to brick, tile, pottery, or pipe works;

 

- poultry farming;

 

- market gardening;

 

- watercress farming;

 

- gypsum mining;

 

- hearthstone and whiting-stone mining;

 

- fuller’s earth mining;

 

- storage of museum artifacts in old stone mines during wartime;

 

- storage of ‘bonded goods’ (alcohol and tobacco) in old stone mines during peacetime;

 

- mushroom growing in old stone mines;

 

- a very mysterious WW2 line into caves (probably former stone mines), which is suspected to have been used to store royal archive material, but may have had something to do with the SE Battle Group command centre;

 

- “alley and archway” systems in urban areas to serve factories and warehouses;

 

- internal transport of materials at major railway works (Wolverton, which I admit is pushing the SE England boundary a bit).

 

18” was never anything like as widely used as 24”, but it did have a niche, especially where space was very cramped.

 

 

That is very interesting thanks, must have been a lot of mushrooms!

[scalerailmodelling]

16 hours ago, Mike Bellamy said:

There has been a local layout based on the Pipeworks but I can't find photos at the moment. However some other links below may help

 

7mmNGA picture galley of O-9 layouts  https://7mmnga.org.uk/galleryO-9.php

 

The Brickworks which I think is O-14   https://7mmnga.org.uk/view_gallery.php?gallery=9

 

Mynydd Mawr brick works Standard 7mm and O-16.5 by Don Mason (known as Member Number One as he founded the 7mmNGA with an advert in Railway Modeller in 1979)

https://7mmnga.org.uk/view_gallery.php?gallery=43

.

 

 

Great thanks 🙏 

[scalerailmodelling]

Thanks again for all the replies, I have decided to go for a 009 brickworks. I already have 009 skips and track and a track plan, which I will at some point get around to making.
The track plan will use 5 of the 6 009 turn outs I have and 3 out of the 4 yards of flexi track.

 

so thats an end of it…

 

 

 

or is it?

I have found out about the 

 

John Knowle's Mount Pleasant Pipe-works at Woodville in Derbyshire

 

this firm had its own internal 18” gauge railway, so a potential 09 micro layout with one turnout could be on the horizon!

 

Thanks again

 

Tim

[ColinK]

Looking forward to seeing your brickworks, or pipeworks or ….

[009 micro modeller]

8 hours ago, scalerailmodelling said:

Thanks again for all the replies, I have decided to go for a 009 brickworks. I already have 009 skips and track and a track plan, which I will at some point get around to making.
The track plan will use 5 of the 6 009 turn outs I have and 3 out of the 4 yards of flexi track.

 

so thats an end of it…

 

 

 

or is it?

I have found out about the 

 

John Knowle's Mount Pleasant Pipe-works at Woodville in Derbyshire

 

this firm had its own internal 18” gauge railway, so a potential 09 micro layout with one turnout could be on the horizon!

 

Thanks again

 

Tim

If you did still want to do 09 some of the skips might be suitable, depending on the size.

[scalerailmodelling]

On 08/12/2023 at 09:18, ColinK said:

Looking forward to seeing your brickworks, or pipeworks or ….

Thanks, I am also working on a 00 biscuit factory shelf layout, 3-2-2 shelves inglenook track plan