Tortoise Point Motor Switch Wiring

[sulzer71]

2 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Yes and no (I think)!

The diagram for your switches looks like a single pole switch with connectors for an LED - would need to see from the back to be sure.

 

Assuming they are only single pole then:-

Can you wire it like the “standard switch”? No.

Can you use it to drive a tortoise? Yes.  You just need (a) differently configured power supply/supplies.

 

In the tortoise wiring instructions (http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/ins/800-6000ins.pdf  ) the “standard” switch is Diagram 1.  Your switches need Diagram 2 with 2 supplies or Diagram 3 with an AC supply and diodes.

 

Hth

Paul.

 

It does have connections for the LED but the switch itself is the DPDT latching version

[5BarVT]

5 minutes ago, sulzer71 said:

It does have connections for the LED but the switch itself is the DPDT latching version

So it has 8 connectors?

Paul.

[sulzer71]

6 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

 Those switches with LEDs usually have a single pole switch, plus contacts to work the LED.  But what was the specification you bought ?   The diagram isn't clear on that. 

 

 

Why do you need the LED, compared to the standard toggle switch ?  The toggle position indicates which way.  Or, if wanting rotary to line up with a track diagram, then normal rotary switches (multiple pole, break-before-make types)  are pretty cheap from UK suppliers.   

Why do you want centre-off ?   Tortoise is a stall motor and expects to be constantly driven, after it has reached end of travel.   

 

 

The switches I bought are DPDT , here is the link to them https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003539167770.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.4.17c61802XF9TQm

 

I bought the 3 position LATCHING version , I don't need the LED Ring but I like it , it doesn't need to be wired but I have other uses for them anyway , eg last night I wired one to control something else but did it in a configuration that it comes on when the switch is turned on

 

I bought them for the tortoises as they were DPDT which is needed to run them on simple DC power and assumed the 3 position one would be correct

 

Thanks

[sulzer71]

3 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

So it has 8 connectors?

Paul.

Paul , it does indeed

 

Here's a link to the actual item , I bought the DPDT 3 position latching version https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003539167770.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.4.17c61802XF9TQm

 

Thanks

[Nigelcliffe]

2 hours ago, sulzer71 said:

The switches I bought are DPDT , here is the link to them https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003539167770.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.4.17c61802XF9TQm

 

I bought the 3 position LATCHING version , I don't need the LED Ring but I like it , it doesn't need to be wired but I have other uses for them anyway , eg last night I wired one to control something else but did it in a configuration that it comes on when the switch is turned on

 

I bought them for the tortoises as they were DPDT which is needed to run them on simple DC power and assumed the 3 position one would be correct

 

Thanks

 

From the wiring on the Ali-express page,   the 6 pins are in two columns.   Labelled "C" = common,  "NO" = normally open  "NC" = normally closed.  

 

So, if it is a DPDT switch,  with a meter on "continuity", I'd expect:

   no contact from one C to adjacent C,  no contact from one NO to the other NO,  no contact from NC to other NC.  

Then, switch in one position, should show:

   C to either NC or NO on the same side.    Identical on the other column of three.  

Switch in other position, should show

   C to the other of NC or NO.    Identical on other column of three.  

 

Then, wiring is a matter of -  input to the "C" common.    Output from the NC.   Crossed wires from NO to NC (ie. left NO to right NC, and right NO to left NC).  

 

If that isn't how it works, then no idea how the documentation lines up with the description.  

 

 

( I repeat, the Tortoise does not need a centre-off,  and if anything centre-off can be a disadvantage as the motor can relax from its end position  ).  

 

 

[sulzer71]

2 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

Then, wiring is a matter of -  input to the "C" common.    Output from the NC.   Crossed wires from NO to NC (ie. left NO to right NC, and right NO to left NC).  

 

If that isn't how it works, then no idea how the documentation lines up with the description.  

 

 

( I repeat, the Tortoise does not need a centre-off,  and if anything centre-off can be a disadvantage as the motor can relax from its end position  ).  

Nigel , this is exactly what I thought and wired it as such (no differently to what others do with the standard type switch just a different way around) but for some reason when crocodile clips are attached it will spark/arc as if there's a short and the lights on my 12v solar generator it's connected to for testing (12v DC OUT) go off

 

Re the centre off , I know what you're saying but this switch will stay locked when turned to the right and as I can get the tortoise to switch one way , it backs off slightly when the switch is turned back to the centre 

 

My hopes with the switches was that they would operate the tortoise correctly as in when thrown left or right of the centre off 

 

Thanks

[johnb]

( I repeat, the Tortoise does not need a centre-off,  and if anything centre-off can be a disadvantage as the motor can relax from its end position  ).  

 

I agree I've got 11 on my DCC layout all operating on an independent 12v DC supply, switched by DPDT switches without a centre-off. The Tortoise does relax without power, particularly as the operating wire to the point tie bar is a bit flexible.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

The web page shows a "2P" switch with five pins and a "3P" switch with eight, but this makes no sense that I can see. 2P and 3P matches "2 position" and "3 position" in the description, but whether a double throw switch is two position or three position does not affect the number of pins. On the other hand, the number of poles affects the number of pins, but the only realistic options are one pole and two pole, not two pole and three pole. In any case, the five-pin switch cannot be a DPDT.

 

If you have a multimeter, you can check continuity or resistance between pairs of pins:

First of all check there is no continuity (or overload resistance if you don't have a continuty setting) between each parallel pair of pins.

Then check C to NO and C to NC on each side, first with the switch set one way, then with the switch set the other way. Both sides should have the same reading for each test. With the switch set one way, you should have continuity from C to NC and no continuity from C to NO. With the switch set the other way, continuity/no continuity should be the other way round.

 

If you don't have a multimeter, connect the power supply to the two C pins, with nothing else connected to the switch. If it sparks or trips, you've got a short, and on the face of it the switch appears to be an SPDT. I expect that connecting the power supply to the other parallel pairs of pins (the NC pair and the NO pair) will have the same effect.

 

Edited February 12 by Jeremy Cumberland

[WIMorrison]

Remember that two of the pins are for the LED, therefore you have 3 pins on one variant a common, plus NO and NC or a SPDT switch. The other variant with 8 pins is two pins for the LED and 6 for switching which could be a DPDT switch.

[5BarVT]

29 minutes ago, sulzer71 said:

but for some reason when crocodile clips are attached it will spark/arc as if there's a short

I’m suspicious about the wording of the description.  They are called DPDT, but the 2 position is SPDT not DPDT.

Now there is a version of DPDT switch that can be made into a three position ON-ON-ON SPDT.  If you put the standard ‘cross’ on that type of DPDT you will get a short in the centre position.  Given that they call the 2P switch DPDT when it isn’t, I wouldn’t be surprised if the 3P isn’t a ON-OFF-ON DPDT either.

 

I’m not keen on testing contact positions by looking for a short - there’s a good chance of damaging the contact so that it won’t work anyway once you know how the contacts are arranged.

 

Paul.

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, sulzer71 said:

Nigel , this is exactly what I thought and wired it as such (no differently to what others do with the standard type switch just a different way around) but for some reason when crocodile clips are attached it will spark/arc as if there's a short and the lights on my 12v solar generator it's connected to for testing (12v DC OUT) go off

 

Buy yourself a multi-meter.   Ideally one with a "continuity buzzer".  Doubt you need to spend over £25 from UK sources.   It makes testing so much simpler and safer than shorting things on the hope nothing goes burns out. 

 

If the switch is not a DPDT, then its shoddy documentation.     Without access to it, I can't work out how it is wired.    

 

 

 

- Nigel

[WIMorrison]

Confirming what Nigel has said and showing that you can get what is needed for less than £10!

 

Screwfix Multimeters

 

It is impossible to build and definitively fault find a model railway without a multimeter and they are very easy to use.

 

There are hunders of videos and thousands of web pages about them, this video shows you have to use them.

 

 

[Nigelcliffe]

2 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

Confirming what Nigel has said and showing that you can get what is needed for less than £10!

 

Screwfix Multimeters

 

 

Though take care with the Screwfix range.   The £8.99 model lacks "continuity buzzer".   The £9.99 model has it.  The continuity buzzer is worth a lot more than £1 - its probably my most used function on model railway work.    

 

 

[sulzer71]

Thanks for all the input guys , I have been mailing the seller and trying to explain what I need the switch to do but as can be expected they don't really understand!

 

I have got one switch to do a normal function (turn on power to something) , for this I have wired a negative feed to the bottom left common post , then one from the same side of the NO to negative side of the device that needs switching on , my positive feed goes to the right pin on the NO and then to the device , I've found that you can do this on either side of the switch 

 

Turn the switch right and device switches on , turn it centre it's off , turn it left and nothing happens

 

When you do the same but on the NC pins it turns device on when switched to the left but also stays on when in the centre position , turn it right and the device goes off

 

Am I missing something?

 

Cheers

[WIMorrison]

1 minute ago, sulzer71 said:

Am I missing something?

yes, a multimeter to enable PROPER testing to be undertaken.

 

yiu can then create a matrix showing what works and what doesn’t.

[sulzer71]

2 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

yes, a multimeter to enable PROPER testing to be undertaken.

 

yiu can then create a matrix showing what works and what doesn’t.

It is something I will invest in soon

[sulzer71]

10 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

Though take care with the Screwfix range.   The £8.99 model lacks "continuity buzzer".   The £9.99 model has it.  The continuity buzzer is worth a lot more than £1 - its probably my most used function on model railway work.    

 

 

Doesn't appear to be a £9.99 version on the site

[WIMorrison]

LAP DC Digital Multimeter 600V - Screwfix

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ULTRICSÂ-Digital-Multimeter-Voltmeter-Ammeter/dp/B00TM0W8ZY/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=multimeter&qid=1707814144&sr=8-5&th=1

 

Edited February 13 by WIMorrison

[5BarVT]

27 minutes ago, sulzer71 said:

Thanks for all the input guys , I have been mailing the seller and trying to explain what I need the switch to do but as can be expected they don't really understand!

 

I have got one switch to do a normal function (turn on power to something) , for this I have wired a negative feed to the bottom left common post , then one from the same side of the NO to negative side of the device that needs switching on , my positive feed goes to the right pin on the NO and then to the device , I've found that you can do this on either side of the switch 

 

Turn the switch right and device switches on , turn it centre it's off , turn it left and nothing happens

 

When you do the same but on the NC pins it turns device on when switched to the left but also stays on when in the centre position , turn it right and the device goes off

 

Am I missing something?

 

Cheers

That’s a much better way of testing!

Using both sides of the switch is making it more difficult to work out what’s happening because you don’t know whether it is the positive that is being switched, or the negative, or both.

A better approach (using the kit you have) would be to wire the +ve direct to the device and use each side of the switch in turn as follows:-

-ve to common, device -ve to NO, record L, C, R.  Repeat with device to NC and record.  Repeat both for other side of switch.

 

Those results will show how each side is connected.  It assumes there are no connections between the two sides, but we can deal with that later if necessary.

 

Paul.

 

[KingEdwardII]

28 minutes ago, sulzer71 said:

Doesn't appear to be a £9.99 version on the site

Classic website mistake. The £9.99 one does not appear if you search for "Multimeter", but it does turn up if you go for "Electrical Testers". Iain gives you the direct link to the £9.99 model above.

 

Yours, Mike.

[sulzer71]

I have just found this diagram from a seller of a similar switch , it appears they offer a 2 position DPDT one which would maybe have been a better choice ?

 

Ignore on the diagram that the 'C' is in the centre of the picture because if you look at the switches in the picture then the positions are in the same positions as the ones I have

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33017259461.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.17.62a1428agzhJJp&algo_pvid=9f9f3269-3885-4348-aa45-f436f54fa801&algo_exp_id=9f9f3269-3885-4348-aa45-f436f54fa801-8&pdp_npi=4%40dis!GBP!3.59!2.87!!!4.40!3.52!%402103846917078147997564313e1f28!12000033283826390!sea!UK!132658013!&curPageLogUid=4CdG79cWJSPY&utparam-url=scene%3Asearch|query_from%3A

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Just now, sulzer71 said:

I have just found this diagram from a seller of a similar switch , it appears they offer a 2 position DPDT one which would maybe have been a better choice ?

 

Ignore on the diagram that the 'C' is in the centre of the picture because if you look at the switches in the picture then the positions are in the same positions as the ones I have

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33017259461.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.17.62a1428agzhJJp&algo_pvid=9f9f3269-3885-4348-aa45-f436f54fa801&algo_exp_id=9f9f3269-3885-4348-aa45-f436f54fa801-8&pdp_npi=4%40dis!GBP!3.59!2.87!!!4.40!3.52!%402103846917078147997564313e1f28!12000033283826390!sea!UK!132658013!&curPageLogUid=4CdG79cWJSPY&utparam-url=scene%3Asearch|query_from%3A

 

Well, well. I now suspect what you have is the bottom switch, whereas what I and I am sure everyone else had assumed was that you had the middle switch.

 

The bottom switch won't work. On the face of it, you need to connect the two NCs together and the two NOs together, but you'll then get a short in the centre "off" position.

 

You need the middle switch.

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

With the kit you have got, you can check the switch operation. Connect just to one side of the switch as before (there is no need to connect the +ve lead to the switch at all), and note whether your device is on or off with the wire connected to the NC or NO pin and the switch in the left, middle and right positions. Then connect to the other side of the switch and do the same thing. I expect you will end up with something like

 

Edited February 13 by Jeremy Cumberland

[sulzer71]

13 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

 

Well, well. I now suspect what you have is the bottom switch, whereas what I and I am sure everyone else had assumed was that you had the middle switch.

 

The bottom switch won't work. On the face of it, you need to connect the two NCs together and the two NOs together, but you'll then get a short in the centre "off" position.

 

You need the middle switch.

 

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I have , so I'm guessing if I was to order some of the type in the middle and wire the 2 NO + 2NC together in the cross figuration , put positive and negative to the commons  and the outputs to the tortoises on the NC posts that should work as per the normal type of switch people use?

 

Thanks

[5BarVT]

5 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

 

Well, well. I now suspect what you have is the bottom switch, whereas what I and I am sure everyone else had assumed was that you had the middle switch.

 

The bottom switch won't work. On the face of it, you need to connect the two NCs together and the two NOs together, but you'll then get a short in the centre "off" position.

 

You need the middle switch.

 

Almost!!

 

You can’t put the power on the C pins because of the short you describe.

 

But, if you put the power on the NO and NC pins (linked NO to NO, NC to NC) and the motor on the C pins then you don’t get the short.

Hopefully the switch will test out as per Jeremy’s table and then you can try the alternative wiring.

 

Paul.