Tortoise Point Motor Switch Wiring

[sulzer71]

Good Afternoon All

 

This may be a dumb question but I'm not that clued up on certain aspects of electronics so probably best to ask

 

I currently have my layout stripped apart for a total rebuild and would like to change the way I redo certain aspects of it upon rebuild , one is the way I will operate my Tortoise Point Motors

 

I have been using the DCC Concepts Cobalt Alpha Central and an AD-8fx Accessory  Decoder Board however this seems a waste when I'll only be running 6 sets of points maximum

 

What I want to do is move to toggle switches mounted in the fascia , however , this is the switch I'd like to use but not sure if it is suitable https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005514996138.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.d92b38daOAN7qX&mp=1

 

From looking online I see that it's easy to do using a DPDT type switch but not sure if the above switch is that type , I'm keen to use this one due to it being Bi-Colour Red/Green LED

 

From what I can tell this comes with a fly lead containing 6 wires and I see that DPDT usually have 6 connection points

 

If this switch is suitable and you have the knowledge of how to wire it could you possibly post or send me a wiring diagram

 

TIA Dave

 

 

[RFS]

You just need something like this from Ebay (other sellers available). They should be wired up as per Tortoise instructions (see attached).

 

tortoise.pdf

 

 

[sulzer71]

10 minutes ago, RFS said:

You just need something like this from Ebay (other sellers available). They should be wired up as per Tortoise instructions (see attached).

 

tortoise.pdf 208.55 kB · 2 downloads

 

 

Thanks ,Yes , this is what I have seen but don't want this type of switch hence asking this question here about the type of switch I posted

[brossard]

Am I right in thinking that you are on DCC?  If so, accessory decoders are a useful thing and avoid having separate power supplies.  I have Tortoise paired with Wabbits.  These can be used by selecting the address from the throttle.  However, I think this is tedious and opted for the momentary push button feature.  Every time the button is pressed the turnout changes.  Buttons are mounted in the fascia close to the turnouts.  They are also fitted to the front and rear.  My only regret is making them proud of the fascia because my stomach has a tendency to change points when I'm reaching over.  One of these days I will sort that.

 

I only discovered the SMAIL the other day which is a Tortoise with decoder included:

 

http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/ins/800-6200ins.pdf

 

 

HTH

 

John

 

 

 

[sulzer71]

4 minutes ago, brossard said:

Am I right in thinking that you are on DCC?  If so, accessory decoders are a useful thing and avoid having separate power supplies.  I have Tortoise paired with Wabbits.  These can be used by selecting the address from the throttle.  However, I think this is tedious and opted for the momentary push button feature.  Every time the button is pressed the turnout changes.  Buttons are mounted in the fascia close to the turnouts.  They are also fitted to the front and rear.  My only regret is making them proud of the fascia because my stomach has a tendency to change points when I'm reaching over.  One of these days I will sort that.

 

I only discovered the SMAIL the other day which is a Tortoise with decoder included:

 

http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/ins/800-6200ins.pdf

 

 

HTH

 

John

 

 

 

Hi John

 

Yes , I am on DCC and have been using the DCC Concepts items mentioned in my opening post but I want to change as I am only utilising half the outputs of them and fancy having a simple switch for each motor on the fascia

 

Dave

[Jeremy Cumberland]

The switch you are looking at is an SPDT (single pole double throw). The reason it has six leads is to allow it to be configured with red and green either way round. If you are particularly keen on using this switch, it could be done, but you'll need to use it to drive a DPDT relay which in turn drives the Tortoise.

 

Personally, I'd use an ordinary DPDT 2-posiiton (on-on) toggle switch and then have separate LEDs to indicate direction, which you can mount wherever you want on your control panel. There are a wide variety of LED options. You can have separate LEDs for each direction, in different colours if you like, or you can get bi-colour LEDs which change colour according to polarity (use a 2-pin type).

 

5 minutes ago, RFS said:

You just need something like this from Ebay (other sellers available). They should be wired up as per Tortoise instructions (see attached).

 

tortoise.pdf 208.55 kB · 0 downloads

 

 

Any idea why Circuitron (Tortoise) recommend wiring LEDs in series with the Tortoise, rather than in parallel? I'd have used 12V LEDs across terminals 1 and 8 (or across the common terminals of the DPDT), myself, or if I couldn't get 12V LEDs with built-in resistors, I'd calculate the resistor size and add it myself.

[brossard]

I have just 5 turnouts and a double slip on my layout.  If you mean the switch outputs, it is normal to use just half of them for switching crossing (frog) polarity.  The other switch can be used for aspect signals.

 

It sounds like you are going down the manual 12VDC route for turnout control.  I can't help there.

 

John

 

 

 

 

[sulzer71]

45 minutes ago, brossard said:

I have just 5 turnouts and a double slip on my layout.  If you mean the switch outputs, it is normal to use just half of them for switching crossing (frog) polarity.  The other switch can be used for aspect signals.

 

It sounds like you are going down the manual 12VDC route for turnout control.  I can't help there.

 

John

 

 

 

 

Yes I would like to just go 12v DC for the control , I don't worry about controlling the frog polarity 

[sulzer71]

49 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

The switch you are looking at is an SPDT (single pole double throw). The reason it has six leads is to allow it to be configured with red and green either way round. If you are particularly keen on using this switch, it could be done, but you'll need to use it to drive a DPDT relay which in turn drives the Tortoise.

 

Personally, I'd use an ordinary DPDT 2-posiiton (on-on) toggle switch and then have separate LEDs to indicate direction, which you can mount wherever you want on your control panel. There are a wide variety of LED options. You can have separate LEDs for each direction, in different colours if you like, or you can get bi-colour LEDs which change colour according to polarity (use a 2-pin type).

 

Any idea why Circuitron (Tortoise) recommend wiring LEDs in series with the Tortoise, rather than in parallel? I'd have used 12V LEDs across terminals 1 and 8 (or across the common terminals of the DPDT), myself, or if I couldn't get 12V LEDs with built-in resistors, I'd calculate the resistor size and add it myself.

Thanks Jeremy , I am keen on using this type of switch and don't want to have to mess around with a layout panel and LED's etc as that's effectively just remaking what the DCC Concepts panel does , there's similar sort of switches available but I have emailed the supplier of the switch I like to see if they offer other variants as I now understand that for a DPDT switch I need 2NO 2NC type

 

Dave

[Nigelcliffe]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

......

 

Any idea why Circuitron (Tortoise) recommend wiring LEDs in series with the Tortoise, rather than in parallel? I'd have used 12V LEDs across terminals 1 and 8 (or across the common terminals of the DPDT), myself, or if I couldn't get 12V LEDs with built-in resistors, I'd calculate the resistor size and add it myself.

 

Because Circuitron understand what their product does.

The motor limits the current flowing to around 15mA at "stall", which is within the maximum current of typical 3mm or 5mm LEDs (20mA or 25mA is common).       With the motor limiting the current flow, the LED will just work.   No extra resistors !     

( Though if two motors are in parallel, then their combined resistance is halved, the stall current is now 30mA and the LEDs placed over the common feed to the motors will be over-current and may blow   But, if put in the wires after they split to each motor, the LEDs will still be fine..).  

 

 

That then brings us back to switches.   

Yes, DPDT work,  but with the appropriate power supply, one can reduce the layout wiring substantially and use a SPDT switch.  

 

With a DPDT switch there are two wires from switch to each motor.  
With a SPDT switch there is one wire to each motor, and one common wire from all motors back to the power supply. 

 

But, the SPDT option requires a slightly more complex power supply;  the simpler being an AC source and two diodes for half-wave rectified output, the more complex being two DC supplies "stacked" (positive of Power-supply-1 connected to negative of Power-supply-2) so they provide -9volts, 0volts and +9volts (or -12, 0, +12 if wanting faster moving motors).       Both are shown in the Tortoise manuals.   

 

 

 

- Nigel

[Nigelcliffe]

2 hours ago, sulzer71 said:

Thanks Jeremy , I am keen on using this type of switch and don't want to have to mess around with a layout panel and LED's etc as that's effectively just remaking what the DCC Concepts panel does , there's similar sort of switches available but I have emailed the supplier of the switch I like to see if they offer other variants as I now understand that for a DPDT switch I need 2NO 2NC type

 

Dave

 

The switch you showed can be easily wired for one-colour illumination.   But doing it for both colours on the switch is complicated.   

 

( Using the SPDT switch wiring options in the Tortoise manual).  

 

- Nigel

[WIMorrison]

Rather than Tortoise motors take a look at the MTB MP10 motor which is a direct replacement for a Tortoise - even down to the screw mounting holes. It has exactly the same foot print and using real microswitches will not suffer from the known weakness with Tortoise when the plastic goes brittle and the sliding contacts fail.

 

MTB MP10 point motor

[bandmbill]

28 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Rather than Tortoise motors take a look at the MTB MP10 motor which is a direct replacement for a Tortoise - even down to the screw mounting holes. It has exactly the same foot print and using real microswitches will not suffer from the known weakness with Tortoise when the plastic goes brittle and the sliding contacts fail.

 

MTB MP10 point motor

Same footprint but has a depth of 20mm as opposed to 83mm……..

[WIMorrison]

17 minutes ago, bandmbill said:

Same footprint but has a depth of 20mm as opposed to 83mm……..

 

Yep, and we proved at McKinley that they are a straight swap for the Tortoise, no need to change anything, just cut the Tortoise wiring, screw onto baseboard, connect the wiring into the MP10 plug and off you go 😂

 

EDIT - I should have also mentioned that MTB will be manufacturing a new version that will have an in-built decoder for DCC users soon. I have seen the pre-prod models and they are extremely tempting and so much better than other slow action motors with in-built decoders 😉

Edited December 11, 2023 by WIMorrison

[sulzer71]

15 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

Rather than Tortoise motors take a look at the MTB MP10 motor which is a direct replacement for a Tortoise - even down to the screw mounting holes. It has exactly the same foot print and using real microswitches will not suffer from the known weakness with Tortoise when the plastic goes brittle and the sliding contacts fail.

 

MTB MP10 point motor

I have a good stock of Tortoise motors as is so don't need to spend more money on new motors , thanks anyway

[WIMorrison]

In your position I would watch this and modify all your motors before installing them

 

71. Tortoise Point Motor Failures at McKinley Railway

 

[bandmbill]

16 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

 

Yep, and we proved at McKinley that they are a straight swap for the Tortoise, no need to change anything, just cut the Tortoise wiring, screw onto baseboard, connect the wiring into the MP10 plug and off you go 😂

 

EDIT - I should have also mentioned that MTB will be manufacturing a new version that will have an in-built decoder for DCC users soon. I have seen the pre-prod models and they are extremely tempting and so much better than other slow action motors with in-built decoders 😉

Have they announced the price of the DCC version yet?

 

[WIMorrison]

Not yet Bill, but expected to be below the other motor with the inbuilt decoder ;)

[John ks]

I had a look at the switches & if I understand correctly then these circuits should work.

If I understand correctly then there are internal resistors for the LEDs

the circuit shows the frog wiring which can be deleted if required.

The LEDs are controlled by the switch in the Tortise

Circuit on the left requires a DC12V & a AC12V power supply.

The circuit on the right requires a more complex +12v,0V,-12V power supply.

I believe DCC Concepts make a +12v,0V,-12V power supply.

If the LEDs are out of sync with the point, then change the green & orange wires at the tortise

If the frog polarity is out of sync with the point, then change the Red & Grey wires at the tortise

 

Hope this helps. 

John

[rogerzilla]

As Charlie points (sorry!) out in the video linked above, DCC control of points is all very well until you run a train into a trailing point that has been set incorrectly.  Then the loco shorts out the track and the layout stops.  With separate switching you can move the point to clear the short and restart the train (s).  With DCC you have to push the loco back by hand.  Whether this is a real problem depends on your point of view, snd on how likely you are to set the road accurately.

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, rogerzilla said:

As Charlie points (sorry!) out in the video linked above, DCC control of points is all very well until you run a train into a trailing point that has been set incorrectly.  Then the loco shorts out the track and the layout stops.  With separate switching you can move the point to clear the short and restart the train (s).  With DCC you have to push the loco back by hand.  Whether this is a real problem depends on your point of view, snd on how likely you are to set the road accurately.

 

Easily solved and thus not something which stops a layout: 

 

Solution A - drive properly and drive to the signals.  Then you never run into incorrectly set turnouts.   

Solution B - try to drive properly, and when it fails, you can move things manually. 

Solution C - separate the track bus from the accessory bus, and fit independent cut-outs to the track bus.  This is usually recommended for all but the smallest/simplest of  layouts, and means that a fault on the track bus (track short circuit) does NOT stop the accessory bus (turnout motor controls) from working.  

 

Separating layouts into zones with their own cut-outs means that a fault in one zone of track does not shut down the rest of a larger layout.   Thus, someone could be ignoring signals in one place and causing short circuits, but the rest of the layout carries on working.   

 

All regular solutions which avoid "total layout shutdown".   

 

 

- Nigel

[sulzer71]

Morning All

 

As you guys are clearly more clued up than I am then I would like to know if it's possible to wire the switch pictured here to do what the standard switch people use for tortoises (also pictured)

 

I've bought some from AliExpress and cannot get them to reverse the polarity no matter what I try

 

They are 3 position switches with a centre off I believe

 

Tia

[KingEdwardII]

On 14/01/2024 at 10:28, rogerzilla said:

Whether this is a real problem depends on your point of view

Well, they tried this in real life on the GWSR at Broadway station and ran King Edward II over an incorrectly set loop turnout while running round. KE II got really upset about this and trashed the turnout comprehensively. The turnout required a rebuild and it was more than a month before they got it back in action.

 

Tripping your DCC system seems a minor let-off by comparison, easily avoided by having separate trip devices for your track and for your accessories.

 

Yours, Mike.

[Nigelcliffe]

3 hours ago, sulzer71 said:

Morning All

 

As you guys are clearly more clued up than I am then I would like to know if it's possible to wire the switch pictured here to do what the standard switch people use for tortoises (also pictured)

 

I've bought some from AliExpress and cannot get them to reverse the polarity no matter what I try

 

They are 3 position switches with a centre off I believe

 

Tia

 

 

 Those switches with LEDs usually have a single pole switch, plus contacts to work the LED.  But what was the specification you bought ?   The diagram isn't clear on that. 

 

 

Why do you need the LED, compared to the standard toggle switch ?  The toggle position indicates which way.  Or, if wanting rotary to line up with a track diagram, then normal rotary switches (multiple pole, break-before-make types)  are pretty cheap from UK suppliers.   

Why do you want centre-off ?   Tortoise is a stall motor and expects to be constantly driven, after it has reached end of travel.   

 

 

[5BarVT]

3 hours ago, sulzer71 said:

Morning All

 

As you guys are clearly more clued up than I am then I would like to know if it's possible to wire the switch pictured here to do what the standard switch people use for tortoises (also pictured)

 

I've bought some from AliExpress and cannot get them to reverse the polarity no matter what I try

 

They are 3 position switches with a centre off I believe

 

Yes and no (I think)!

The diagram for your switches looks like a single pole switch with connectors for an LED - would need to see from the back to be sure.

 

Assuming they are only single pole then:-

Can you wire it like the “standard switch”? No.

Can you use it to drive a tortoise? Yes.  You just need (a) differently configured power supply/supplies.

 

In the tortoise wiring instructions (http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/ins/800-6000ins.pdf  ) the “standard” switch is Diagram 1.  Your switches need Diagram 2 with 2 supplies or Diagram 3 with an AC supply and diodes.

 

Hth

Paul.