How did Loco coal get to a shed?

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

The Operators probably don't own a lot but I'm thinking of the current railway as a whole - including Network rail ( think Mobile Operations Managers ) and all it's contractors ........... though each road-rail vehicle only scores a half point, of course.

The BR road vehicle fleet, excluding trailers but including artic tractors, peaked at 15,846 in 1956.  It dropped below 15,000 - to 14, 943 in 1959 and had further decline to 11,699 by 1966; 1966 was the first year it had dropped below the 1948 total of 12,329.  

Source - 'Facts & Figures About British Rail' Published by the BRB in September 1966, all figures correct to 31 December 1965 (so the figures are presumably 'as at 1 January).

 

Part of the reason for the decline in numbers in the 1960s was the move to higher capacity vehicles  (especially artic tractors), freight depot concentration schemes, and better fleet utilisation.  

I would be surprised - but am open to information - if the current railway (in all its forms) owns/leases/long term hires a total road vehicle fleet of anywhere near 10,000 vehicles

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Yes and then post war they had all those people who had learnt to drive in the forces and a lot of cheap ex military vehicles appearing on the market.

 

I am a little baffled why the subject even came up.

 

 

Jason

My father couldn't afford a car in the 40s though he had been an RAF officer during the war and had learned to drive and had been driving around Norway after Germany capitulated but talked of a prewar car he bought for £5 in the early 50s.   It caught fire in Southampton town centre, another motorist produced a fire extinguisher saying "I always wondered if this would work".  They managed to put the fire out but the car now wouldn't start.  So they pushed it over the summit of a small hill and it rolled into an auction site under gravity where Dad told them to sell it, no reserve.  He got his fiver back!  It was the early 60s before he bought a Morris Minor.

[Michael Hodgson]

44 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I would be surprised - but am open to information - if the current railway (in all its forms) owns/leases/long term hires a total road vehicle fleet of anywhere near 10,000 vehicles

 

A lot of railway related vehicles don't seem to belong to the railways proper.  They carry the liveries of assorted contractors who do PWay, S&T etc, and are used by the workforce to convey themselves and their tools to wherever the work is required, so when not in use are parked in ordinary residential areas rather than adjacent to a railway line.

[Southernfrance]

Wow, you guys sure wander off topic quickly!

 

Thanks to those who have replied about Loco coal......

 

Dave

[Rivercider]

2 hours ago, Southernfrance said:

Wow, you guys sure wander off topic quickly!

 

Thanks to those who have replied about Loco coal......

 

Dave

I had held off replying before, as I don't know the SR London area very well.

Locomotive coal for SR depots in the West Country was unloaded at the railway owned Fremington Quay on the River Taw.  I believe

that the loco coal for the large MPD at Exmouth Junction ran as train loads, possibly run as required. 

 

cheers 

[johnofwessex]

One point that David Wardale made about the steam locomotive was that its inefficiency brought with it a high cost, not only in terms of the  cost of coal but transporting and handling it and dealing with the resultant ash.

 

Looking at the figures quoted in the Didcot article, thats 15 tons per loco per week for 25000 mainline loco's in the UK thats 375000 tons or 625 600 ton trains.  Clearly if you could increase efficiency by 25% thats about 156 fewer heavy freight trains a week

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Southernfrance said:

Thanks to those who have replied about Loco coal......

 

On the Midland, and I presume many other companies were similar, there were contracts placed with individual collieries or colliery companies for the supply of coal to specific locomotive depots - so for the larger depots at least, one would expect to see wagons of loco coal if not in complete train loads, then at least forming a portion of a mineral train. But these might be the company's loco coal wagons, its ordinary mineral wagons, or wagons belonging to the colliery company.

 

The lines south of the Thames were a little different, in that the LSWR and the LBSCR - not sure about the SER/LCDR/SECR - contracted with a major coal factor, Stephenson Clarke, for loco coal, so it would be in that firm's wagons that coal arrived, either from the northern lines via one or other of the cross-London routes, or by sea in a Stephenson Clarke collier, to be transshipped at a Thames port.

 

The S&DJR is an interesting example: the contract for coal for Highbridge, Templecombe, Bournemouth etc. was placed with a South Wales colliery, being shipped across the Bristol Channel and loaded into S&DJR loco coal wagons at Highbridge wharf, whereas the contract for coal for Bath S&DJR shed was placed with collieries in the Bristol area, being delivered via the Midland line from Mangotsfield. Haulage of loco coal over the 1:50 gradients through the Mendips was thereby avoided; equally, the local North Somerset collieries were not patronised.

 

How far into the grouping era these arrangements continued I do not know, nor whether any trace of the survived after nationalisation.  

[phil_sutters]

On 19/12/2023 at 16:50, Stoke West said:

Look at pictures of Bristol Barrow Road  overlooking the yard off a bridge front and rear of depot , giving a good idea of what happens including ash disposal . In the inefficient old railway everything came and went by rail to depots , spares in vans , brake blocks / wheel sets in open wagons , lubricating oil in drums , larger diesel depots in tankers , even the paperwork . In the efficient modern railway nothing goes by rail just creates more traffic on the roads .

Well there's one loco coal wagon that made it to Barrow Road and will have a job making it back to the colliery!. Don't forget to leave your fire irons on top of the nearest handy shed.

[Dave John]

I think that some of the use of specific loco coal wagons, particularly prior to the grouping, is about accountancy and the way coal was taxed. 

 

We have discussed this before , but I can't find the link. 

[phil_sutters]

18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

The S&DJR is an interesting example: the contract for coal for Highbridge, Templecombe, Bournemouth etc. was placed with a South Wales colliery, being shipped across the Bristol Channel and loaded into S&DJR loco coal wagons at Highbridge wharf, whereas the contract for coal for Bath S&DJR shed was placed with collieries in the Bristol area, being delivered via the Midland line from Mangotsfield.

Would I be right in thinking that the MR shed at Bath also got its supplies from the same collieries? That would make sense practically and economically.

I don't recall seeing any S&DJR wagons, including those being loaded with coal at Highbridge Wharf, marked Loco Coal, despite this being a major use of the imports from across the Channel - the Bristol variety that is.

.

[DCB]

6 hours ago, Rivercider said:

I had held off replying before, as I don't know the SR London area very well.

Locomotive coal for SR depots in the West Country was unloaded at the railway owned Fremington Quay on the River Taw.  I believe

that the loco coal for the large MPD at Exmouth Junction ran as train loads, possibly run as required. 

cheers 

There was a grade of coal most suitable for Steam railway loco use faster burning than very soft  "Steam Coal" which burned very slowly and was ideal for steam ships,  not as fast burning as the Hard House coals.  South Wales has all these with House coal to the East (Forest of Dean) Steam Coal to the West and good loco coal somewhere between, The GWR had two Collieries in this area for their own use.

The  Southern also used similar grades of South Wales coal on the "Withered Arm"  landed at  Fremington Quay  (not sure of the spelling) 

This was the original line to Barnstaple and was built long before Ilfracomb or the line to Exeter.   
The Southern found South Wales coal (Not Steam Coal)  was the cheapest, for Devon t had nearly as much calorific value per £1 as cheap stuff and you saved 20% on transport costs, unless you treated it harshly at which point about 20% was wasted as dust .
Some railways had to use cheap local dross as coal, the  GSWR in Scotland was one, but generally companies tried to get a decent grade for at least passenger locos.    I don't believe the Kent coal was suitable for passenger locos so with good cross London connections it would have been easy for the SR to have sourced midlands coal from GC/GN / Midland  or south wales coal  via the  GWR    London was littered with Railway coal depots, some well away from their own railway served by running powers.    

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

Would I be right in thinking that the MR shed at Bath also got its supplies from the same collieries? That would make sense practically and economically.

 

I don't know. The contracts would have been separately negotiated. The S&DJR contracts are noted in the Joint Committee minutes; I expect one would find a note of the MR contracts in the MR Stores Committee minutes, which I have not examined [TNA RAIL 491/197-225].

 

7 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

I don't recall seeing any S&DJR wagons, including those being loaded with coal at Highbridge Wharf, marked Loco Coal, despite this being a major use of the imports from across the Channel - the Bristol variety that is.

 

Derby official photo DY8460, reproduced in Maggs, Highbridge in its Heyday, plate 84, shows SS Julia alongside the wharf at Highbridge, with a row of wagons behind. According to Maggs' description, this photo is c. 1895 - at any rate before SS Alpha was lengthened in 1904. He presumably could study a larger print than the reproduction in the book, as he says the wagons include No. 47A, a wagon with three wide planks, labelled "Loco Coal Highbridge". (Comparing with the standard 8-ton highside wagons further along, I estimate the depth at around 2' 9", i.e. three 11" planks.) It is next to a lowside wagon No. 676 with three Xs painted on its side and labelled "To work between Highbridge Wharf & Burnham". So I deduce that around this time, there were old highside wagons on the duplicate list (A suffix) used for loco coal from the wharf to Highbridge shed, though I suspect that 8-ton highside wagons from the regular stock would have been used for coal to more distant sheds. 

 

When the goods stock was divided between the owning companies in 1914, various vehicles were retained in S&DJR ownership as service stock, including 65 of the 80 10-ton 6-plank wagons built at Derby in 1902, these being retained for loco coal; photos from the 1920s show them so labelled. That gives an idea of the number of coal wagons needed to service a loco fleet - around 70% of the number of locomotives. (The same proportion on the Midland, with a much larger fleet of both loco coal wagons and locos.)

[Southernfrance]

Thanks for the bits and pieces so far, but no-one has yet been able to answer the key part of my question, which was did the coal arrive in a fully formed train complete with brake, or were wagons tripped in from a nearby yard. I’m tending to think the former given the volumes discussed, but I’ve never seen a picture of this at any yard, nor seen it done on a layout…..

 

Dave

[AMJ]

There are photos of wagons marked as loco for the coal.  

 

Subject to the size of the shed depends upon how it's handled

 

Small, often off loaded in a platform level pile.

 

Larger ones had had wagons unloaded by gravity into locos (having pushed wagon up a ramp).  Similar to the one that survives at Didcot.

Mechanical coaling plat similar to the one at Carnforth lifts and empties the wagon into a bunker, then gravity fed into loco.

 

Diesel locos can vary from small sites having drums that are emptied by a pump into loco tank, many industrials had a hand pump for doing this.

A pump will be needed to empty a tanker into the storage at larger sheds.

[Wickham Green too]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

... The lines south of the Thames ... not sure about the SER/LCDR/SECR ...

I'm not sure about dates but much coal was shipped into Erith and distributed around the railway(s) by CORYS.

[Compound2632]

59 minutes ago, Southernfrance said:

Thanks for the bits and pieces so far, but no-one has yet been able to answer the key part of my question, which was did the coal arrive in a fully formed train complete with brake, or were wagons tripped in from a nearby yard. I’m tending to think the former given the volumes discussed, but I’ve never seen a picture of this at any yard, nor seen it done on a layout…..

 

Yes, I think you are right that there would be a trip working from the nearest marshalling yard, where incoming mineral trains would be broken up. But such a working would certainly have a brake van if traversing the running lines, so on arrival at the shed would be indistinguishable from a direct arrival from the colliery.

 

If one looks at plans of loco sheds, there's commonly a couple of sidings behind the coaling stage with extensive stacking ground alongside - a reminder that not all coal went straight from incoming wagons to loco tenders or bunkers. Coal was bough in summer when it was cheaper and stored until winter. But was it then loaded back into wagons to be moved to the coaling stage?

 

If you are simply wanting to model a mineral train passing by out in the country, I think the usual rule of many or none applies - you could include a block of a dozen or more loco coal wagons whereas a single one is, i think, less likely.

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

I'm not sure about dates but much coal was shipped into Erith and distributed around the railway(s) by CORYS.

 

Yes indeed, but did Wm Cory & Son have any contracts for supply to loco sheds? Or were their customers other industrial users, along with domestic supplies (as factors or wholesalers to local coal merchants)?

[Rivercider]

2 hours ago, Southernfrance said:

Thanks for the bits and pieces so far, but no-one has yet been able to answer the key part of my question, which was did the coal arrive in a fully formed train complete with brake, or were wagons tripped in from a nearby yard. I’m tending to think the former given the volumes discussed, but I’ve never seen a picture of this at any yard, nor seen it done on a layout…..

 

Dave

My impression was that loco coal for the large MPD at Exmouth Junction was indeed sent in train loads. I seem to recall that in one of my books there was an extract from the Working Timetable showing freight trains, and that the loco coal service from Fremington Quay ran as required, quite possibly with a call a Barnstaple Junction to detach coal for the shed there, before continuing to Exmouth Junction.

 

Having just moved house my book collection is not yet fully accessible to check, so I cannot confirm details

 

cheers

Edited December 22, 2023 by Rivercider
tidying up.

[Wickham Green too]

Prior to the working union neither SER nor LCDR had that we'd recognise as a mineral wagon so loco coal must have been carried in privately owned vehicles - whether Cory or other. From 1899 a number of mineral/coal wagons were acquired either new or second hand and a number of these are known to have been for loco coal. With the forthcoming opening of the Kent coalfield, 1850 12T RCH wagons were placed in traffic between 1910 & 1914 - ten of which were former WD vehicles ( SR dia.1356 ). The remainder comprised 100 ( dia.1358 ) 'For William Cory & Son', 200 'Lettered '12 TONS LOCO COAL WAGON'', 200+ 'For William Cory & Son' and 600+ for other traffics ( all dia.1357 ). As Southern Wagons Vol.3 says "William Cory & Son ... business relationship with the SECR concerning these wagons is not clear ..." !

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Wickham Green too
clarification after intermission

[Mallard60022]

15 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

My impression was that loco coal for the large MPD at Exmouth Junction was indeed sent in train loads. I seem to recall that in one of my books there was an extract from the Working Timetable showing freight trains, and that the loco coal service from Fremington Quay ran as required, quite possibly with a call a Barnstaple Junction to detach coal for the shed there, before continuing to Exmouth Junction.

 

Having just moved house my book collection is not yet fully accessible to check, so I cannot confirm details

 

cheers

That's interesting. 

I also have note of Coal for Exmouth Junction coming down, Train Load, from Yeovil Junction (through Seaton Junction, my layout area). I have no idea where it was before Yeovil Jcn. I don't have working detials but I do have the info from a Book Chapter on Goods Workings on the area's Lines.

Fairly Sure that Coal for Seaton and Axminster/Lyme Regis, as well as Exmouth, were Wagon load from a Drop Off Goods. 

 

Another shot of Barrow Road. This was a dedicated Coal Siding IIRC?

 

 

[Compound2632]

12 hours ago, Dave John said:

I think that some of the use of specific loco coal wagons, particularly prior to the grouping, is about accountancy and the way coal was taxed. 

 

We have discussed this before , but I can't find the link. 

 

Interesting, but not something I've seen evidence for. The Midland's decision in 1900 to label 1,000 wagons for loco coal was explicitly an operational move, to ensure the Stores Dept had a sufficient supply of wagons.

 

The half-yearly reports of the Board and the annual Board of Trade Return include a Return of Working Stock in which service wagons were not distinguished from revenue wagons; this was a standard form of reporting across all railway companies. This changed with the Railway Companies (Accounts and Returns) Act, 1911, which changed the format of the Return of Working Stock so that service wagons were separately enumerated by type: loco coal, ballast, etc.; this came into effect in 1913. 

 

I can see that there might be accountancy and tax implications for loco coal traffic, as being non-revenue-earning, but while this would involve knowing the ton-miles involved, I suppose, I can't see that it would specifically require wagons set aside for the purpose and indeed there is plenty of evidence that this wasn't necessarily done, or that where it was done, loco coal was far from exclusively carried in loco coal wagons. 

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, DCB said:

There was a grade of coal most suitable for Steam railway loco use faster burning than very soft  "Steam Coal" which burned very slowly and was ideal for steam ships,  not as fast burning as the Hard House coals.  South Wales has all these with House coal to the East (Forest of Dean) Steam Coal to the West and good loco coal somewhere between, The GWR had two Collieries in this area for their own use.

 

You're a bity adrift in resect of the South Wales coalfield.  Basically, although there was some variation between the seams, the South Wales field ran from its softest coal in the east to its hardest coal (anthracte) at its extreme western end,.  The main steam coal seams were concentrated in the Rhondda Valley with some coming from collieries either side pf that valley of such as the Red Valey and the Wrestern (Newport) Valley.

 

By local repute the best cokl for GWR engine use came from the Western Valley - so fairly soft and friable (hence unsuitable for mechanical coaling plants) but good calorific value and low ash content.  The steam coals were also reasonably good for rail use as they weren't very much different from Western Valley coal.

 

One GWR coal train at one time came off the Vale of Neath Line - coal mainly originating I think at Aberdare and east thereof - and as it started its journey towards London from Pontypool Road it might also have conveyed some coal from the Eastern Valleys.   This train at one time ran via Worcester and Oxford but from what I've read the first location where it put off loco coal was at Oxford.  GWR West of England loco coal definitely came from the Western Valley (trains from/empties to Rogerstone) but without doing a bit of delving I'm not sure which way this was routed before the Severn Tunnel opened.

 

In later years I suspect that in South Wales most loco coal came from relatively local pits to g help keep the cost down although presumably it came from further east for the sheds in the anthracite area

[DCB]

The Forest of Dean the  Eastern end of the South Wales Coal field was house coal and  the coal field was very busy even when the Steam Coal pits were in severe decline in the 1920s .  The GWR avoided using the Severn Tunnel for coal trains, banned them at certain periods and routinely routed coal via Gloucester to Swindon, and presumably empties through the tunnel.  The GWR loved asymmetric flows.  Much of the Forest output went by River.  The River Severn  flows backwards uphill most of the time and the Canal network opened up markets for house coal as far East as Lechlade on Thames long before 1800  The Thames lacked modern locks so effectively Lechlade was the terminus for narrow boats, albeit there was a break of gauge at Brimscomb Port where the Broad Stroudwater Canal with short locks joined the narrow Thames and Severn.  Rail flows presumably went over the Severn Bridge as well as up the South Wales main line to Gloucester.   The railways took over these coal flows to established merchants, Cirencester Goods yard being just yards from the Thames and Severn wharf, and the  Parkend and similar colliery liveried Forest wagons were seen over quite a wide area as the coal was premium House coal, and pretty useless for steam engines.   The Canals could undercut the railways on price but were unreliable and the wagons could be emptied at leisure, the boat crew were desperate to get unloaded and get back for another load.   Its a big chunk of forgotten social history.   

The river Severn is super weird.  Second largest tidal range in the world, the "River"  is a constant flow of fresh water along the river bed.    Superimposed is a brackish tidal layer which flows upstream twice most days "The Bore"  This lets boats float up from Bullo Pill to Framilode on one tide but they can't get back down stream on one tide, they need two.     The Severn kills. The cold less buoyant fresh water flows under the brackish more buoyant warmer top  layer and anyone swimming who sinks  drops into unseen cold less buoyant and swiftly flowing water  which catches the unwary.

[Wickham Green too]

Further to the SECR notes, Vol.3 also states "Although much SECR loco coal traffic was handled in the company's own wagons*, some was delivered by the other large coal factor in the Southeast, Messrs Stephenson Clarke Ltd ..."

 

* 'the company's own wagons' presumably included those acquired 'For William Cory & Son' which appear indistinguishable.

[phil_sutters]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

If you are simply wanting to model a mineral train passing by out in the country, I think the usual rule of many or none applies - you could include a block of a dozen or more loco coal wagons whereas a single one is, i think, less likely.

Could be loco coal! Frome shed doesn't look as if it would need more than a wagon load. https://www.facebook.com/fromemuseum/photos/pcb.2905380859710377/2905380463043750/?type=3&theater - may be that's the one wagon.

Edited December 22, 2023 by phil_sutters