"Things "Southern" For a Newcomer"

[Typeapproval]

Hello,

As a novice of things "Saff O the Thames" I am asking questions about things which in all probablity most people on this site grew up with and are second nature, if I offend their sensibilities, please accept my apology in advance.

 

I have previously asked some questions that have quickly been answered and for that I am very grateful.

 

I grew up with the GN mainline literally at the bottom of our garden, subsequently moving eventually to East Anglia (GER territory), my limited knowledge is therefor essentially of the LNER. 

 

After many years away from railway modelling I am amazed at the variety of locos. coaches and equipment now available. As an LNER follower these days I am spoiled for choice. The forthcoming J69 etc. is a gift to East Anglian modellers, Equally The Hornby J50 for large parts of the LNER.

 

The Holden 0-6-0 tanks seldom ventured far from home, so not as universal as Mr Riddles later Locos.

 

My question is, looking at the range of RTR Southern Railway locos is there a truly "All parts" of the railway loco? As I understand (Always ready to be put right🤔) the SR was divided into three. Eastern, Central and Western. More or less on the ground of the old pre grouping companies. 

 

The LBSC Terrier was I think the equivalent of the Holden tanks, did it venture out of the home territory? Could you see one in Bournemouth?  Gresley Coaches were in later times (1930s) to be found all over the LNER, though older company stock continued well into Nationalisation. Did the SR have multi area coaches that could be seen in Devon and Dover? The GWR had brake vans that were unlikely to wander far from the Home Depot, what was the situation on the SR? I'm sure this must show my ignorance, but I was taught "If you don't know..........ASK?"

 

I have not found a book that covers these (I admit general) questions. The books I have found so far tend to be rather specialist. This seems to be a Railway wide situation. If you want to know the history of the A4 loco no problem I know of at least 5 books and counting! Any suggestions gratefully received.

 

Thanks in anticipation of your usual kind assistance. 

 

Regards

David.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Short answer:

 

- if it was built by the SR, within reason it could probably be seen on all sections (there are exceptions and caveats!);

 

- if it was built by the LBSCR, it probably didn’t wander far, the exception oddly enough being Terriers, which got about over much of Britain on the secondhand market, although they were very largely on ex-LBSCR and  IoW as far as the SR goes.

 

- some SECR and LSWR classes were used on ex-LBSCR routes because the equivalent Brighton classes were smaller, and the 4-4-0 weren’t particularly marvellous anyway, so were withdrawn sooner as the SR tried to reduce the number of classes. 
 

- electrification had a big impact, progressively displacing and reducing the number of suburban tank engines, then displacing main-line locos, so to get your head round which locos were where when you have to get the key electrification dates.

 

Overall, date is important, because the situation in, say, 1928, was very different from, say, 1958.

 

Which locos are you thinking of particularly?

[Nearholmer]

I realised that I didn’t directly answer your question: the Maunsell Moguls were probably the most ”everywhere” classes, on all sections, and only banned from branches that had weight of curvature restrictions. Even then though, they were places they probably never, or very seldom, went, because three pre-grouping goods classes soldiered on to the end, 700 on the Western, C2X on the Central, and C on the Eastern.

[Olive_Green1923]

In general most locos stuck to their old stomping grounds I think, but as Nearholmer says, Richard Maunsell’s N Class (Mogul) ended up across the network for mixed traffic. Originally an SECR loco that was essentially restricted to Kent and SE London, upon Grouping it ended up as far west as Cornwall, which is well documented. More info here: https://sremg.org.uk/steam/nclass-mob.shtml

 

The LSWR T9s also did some duties on ex-SECR lines in the 1920s: https://sremg.org.uk/steam/700class-mob.shtml

 

[Nearholmer]

T9 were use on the Victoria- Portsmouth route too, so Central, to replace Brighton 4-4-0 until the mid-Sussex line was electrified in 1938. That meant that they worked both Portsmouth routes, which improved efficiency at the country end.

 

Another Maunsell class that got about more widely than is often thought we’re the Schools, which although primarily for the Hastings Line were also allocated elsewhere.

 

 

Edited January 13 by Nearholmer

[PatC]

The T9s that were transferred east were generally paired with six wheel tenders, usually attributed to shorter turntables on the  Central section.

 

The later batch of Schools were allocated new to  Portsmouth Direct line duties, shedded at Fratton from 1935. When the direct was electrified they were used on Bournemouth line duties where they showed their full potential, matching King Arthur performance. The Arthur's were also used in Eastern and Central sections services, again the six wheel tenders being required for shorter ex LBSC turntables.

 

 

Edited January 13 by PatC

[KeithHC]

The M7 and H class saw service on the central section in the last days of steam. Maunsell and Bulleid coaches could be seen through out the Southern area. A few Bulleid coaches even ended up as far away as Scotland. And of course the Southern parcels van could be seen anywhere in the country. Even the DEMUs could be seen far off Southern rails. With rail tours for the Hastings units ro Spalding and the famous Long thin drag over the Settle and Carlisle.

 

Keith

[Typeapproval]

Hi,

 

Thank you for some very comprehensive and speedy answers. I personally am working on a smallish "Mid Suffolk Light Railway' model. The only locos being MSLR 0-6-0s GER J65s and eventually J15s.

 

I can see that to construct a reasonably realistic SR model, it would be necessary to decide on a specific area and see what RTR locos are available to suit. The coaching stock would seem to be an easier proposition. My knowledge of RTR SR locos is rather rusty. A school friend had a 4-4-0 L1 which if I remember correctly was a Triang model, also an M7. With the information you have provided so far this was an improbable pairing! At least my Princess and Jinty were compatible! 

 

During LNER times a few Holden 0-6-0s were sent to Scotland. That provides an interesting thought! A J69 pulling a pair of Bulleid coaches on a Scottish branch line! 

 

From this information, the SR was in most respects the same as the LNER in as much that GN locos tended to stay on GN metals and GE stock similarly. Until as you say "Genuine SR" designs Q1 etc. roamed more freely. 

 

One of the models that has stuck in my memory was 'Charford'. In those far off days anything not GWR was quite exotic. (Ignoring Peter Denny as the exception in many ways.)  I was (and still am) in awe of the modellers of the 50s and 60s. I tried my hand at a Kays kit, which were considered to be quite acceptable, sadly it didn't look like the picture on the box when I finished it!

 

In the opinion of the contributors who have offered help so far, would it be possible using RTR stock available today, to build a reasonable "Southern" branch line model? As in the past the GWR modeller seems to have everything needed (Pannier tanks, Coaches etc.) to knock out an "Ashburton" without too much problem, how difficult would a Southern enthusiast find a similar project?

 

Once again many thanks.

 

Regards

David.

[Nearholmer]

Depending on period, there are some branches that you could do precisely with r-t-r locos:

 

- Hayling Island, only Terriers for c60 years;

 

- Lyme Regis, only Adams Radials for donkeys years, and before that secondhand Terriers;

 

- Hawkhurst, and I think Westerham, latterly almost entirely H, C, and 01;

 

- Anything on the IoW post 1930ish, Terriers, O2, E1;

 

- various ex-LSWR ones where an M7 and a 700 were the usual;

 

- etc.

 

There is fair scope locomotive-wise, although of course some of the models are now out of production.

 

Carriages for branch lines isn’t as simple as it might seem, because most lines used pre-grouping stock in push-pull mode, and the variety was bewildering, lots of “built that way from new”, and lots of SR created conversions, old rail-motor bodies, four-wheelers made from old suburban six-wheelers, all sorts! I think only the LSWR “Gate Stock” has been made r-t-r.  You have to bear in mind that the SR built no new non-corridor locomotive hauled stock; even a fair proportion of the 1920s-built suburban EMUs were converted suburban steam-hauled stock. BR got up to the same trick later, converting SR-built mainline stock to make PP sets (those are available r-t-r, I think). It’s like the ex-GER lines, only more so!

 

For most branches, you need to get into kits, either exact ones, or approximations using conversions of Ratio Midland low-roof stock, which can sort of pass for some LBSCR and SECR PP stock.

 

 

Edited January 14 by Nearholmer

[Rivercider]

This is an interesting thread, with a lot of useful replies.

The three main constituent parts of the SR each had their own characteristics and requirements, so their loco fleets had evolved differently.

 

The SECR had always been short of money, so even the main lines were not of the highest standard and had weight restrictions. The D and E class 4-4-0s only weighed just over 50 tons (tender excluded). It was some years after the grouping before the bridges had been strengthened to take heavier locos. There was also the Tonbridge to Hastings route with a restricted loading gauge that prohibited many classes of loco and stock.

 

London to Brighton is about 50 miles, so for the LBSCR tank engines had enough coal and water capacity to work many services, and the few tender locos did not require large tenders. Hence the turntables on that line did not need to be long.

 

The LSWR had longer main line runs, to Bournemouth and Weymouth, Salisbury and Exeter. They required larger rugged locos and tenders with a larger coal and water capacity. Many of the larger heavier locos were as a consequence banned from working west of Exeter.

 

This meant that the three different loco fleets were not initially easily interchanged between areas once the Southern Railway had been created.

 

The ongoing electrification schemes meant that the SR built almost no new tank locos (the ill-fated 'River' tanks were an exception). This meant that many tank locos originally built for London suburban services were displaced, and many found themselves far from home.

Therefore on the LSWR many of the O2s found work on branch lines in the West Country, and Isle of Wight (where they were modified with larger bunkers). Many M7s also worked in the South West. The weight and curvature restrictions of the Lyme Regis branch meant a longer life for a few Adams Radial 4-4-2Ts after several other classes including Terriers, O2s, and LBSCR D1s were found wanting. Then there were the three Beattie 2-4-0WT Well Tanks that worked the Wenfordbridge branch. No doubt also on the SECR and LBSCR tanks locos from the London area later worked further out from the capital.

 

cheers     

[Nearholmer]

Just remembered this little book:

 

https://billhudsontransportbooks.co.uk/bhtb/bh10186/southern-railway-branch-lines-in-the-thirties/

 

Worth its weight in gold, because rather than being the modern sort of book that takes one branch and goes into a gnats nadger of detail, down to the size of screws used to hold the door hinges in the gents toilets, it’s a “railway enthusiast’s recollections”, written by a guy who travelled on all these lines, and knew some of them very well. He conveys atmosphere and quirky details, as well as mentioning types of stock and locomotives.

 

The other thought is that if you want to build a “typical” rural BLT, best look to Kent for inspiration, or go into Hampshire and onwards to the west, so SECR or LSWR. Surrey and Sussex were very short of rural BLTs; most of the Surrey ones quickly became suburban or race-course BLTs and got electrified, and almost all the branches in Sussex were “double ended”, leaving only: Hayling Island (actually just over the border into Hants, and done to death in model form); The Dyke (a bit boring operationally); and Kemp Town (no passenger trains after 1932). The other Sussex places that look on a large scale map like BLTs were more like various grades of mainline station.

 

Ex-LSWR ones are almost as popular in model form as GWR ones, Charford being probably the first well known one. I think this is because a seaside BLT inspired by somewhere like Seaton or Swanage, or even somewhere like Padstow that was really at the end of a very thin secondary main-line, offer the opportunity to run not only the standard branch PP and goods services, but through coaches/portions from something like the Atlantic Coast Express, or entire through trains to/from London, either with “a big engine” or double-headed by tank engines.

 

Another ex-LSWR option is the branches in Hampshire and Wiltshire which had military connections, of which there were several. They offer heavier than typical goods traffic, plus troop trains.

 

If you want a real dead-end branch, Brookwood Necropolis would do nicely.

 

 

Edited January 14 by Nearholmer

[bécasse]

Actually the Q1s, whilst they roamed reasonably freely on much of the Southern, were extremely rare west of Salisbury and certainly shouldn't feature on any SR west of England layout.

 

Most of the Southern moguls had definite "home territories" at various periods, with the N probably being the one that spread itself most widely.

[Typeapproval]

Hi,

 

So it would be possible for somebody to for a reasonable outlay create a believable "Southern" branch line, As Nearholmer has suggested based on RTR equipment. I think the suggested locations would be interesting to investigate. I had a quick look and some of the suggested locos are quite available, the coaching stock was as mentioned more problematic. 

 

I spent many happy hours in Lyme Regis,  never found the station. I guess another case of "Destroy it quick before they realise its useful"! When I read about the Ecological situation I wonder if anybody will ever admit the good 'Doctor' got it wrong! They are trying to restore a rail link 'Cambridge to Oxford' two important Educational and Scientific centres. Amazingly there is an MP who thinks building a Duel carriage road would be a better alternative. 

 

The situation with coaching stock seems to be general for anything other than the mainline stock on the four main companies. GER is being addressed by some small suppliers, mostly 3D printed. There have also been a few wagons.

 

Were Southern branch lines mostly "Pull-Push"? they were not very common in East anglia, frequently being of the "Mixed train" variety. In many respects the MSLR would have had problems being PP as the majority of its income was "Goods" related. I already established that there were few specific Goods locos on the Southern so I guess any of the locos mentioned would double up moving goods on the branch. On the MSLR it was normal for the branch loco to drop the two coaches after the morning train, collect the branch goods run up and down the branch dropping wagons and then return with wagons, pick up the coaches for the second passenger then repeat the process as required. 

 

Thanks again for this.

 

Looking forward to any further information that can be provided.

 

Kind regards

David.

 

[PeterStiles]

My Next Layout, after this one is finished, is intended on being New Romney & Littlestone on Seas's track plan (*) moved slightly further up the coast to Dymchurch, because I want to build That Church and the Ship Inn, and have a Martello tower in the background. Depending upon the time period I end up with I may even have some Z gauge RH&D trackage...

 

(*) _With_ the turntable shown on the old OS maps

[Mallard60022]

If you decide to go Westish on the LSWR Main Line then do contact me. If you really go far west to that there Cornwall and or North Devon, then Chris Tooth is your contact, along with others of course.

A good Branch for variety could be Swanage and a lot of it is still there of course.

I know nothing of what happened Sarf of the River and east/south east of Salisbury.

Phil

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, Typeapproval said:

Were Southern branch lines mostly "Pull-Push"?

Broadly, yes, although as ever there were exceptions, the two famous ones, Hayling and Lyme Regis (I think) being among them, and they did both run mixed trains at quiet times.

 

Another “southern” thing is the way goods services worked. There were nodal yards served by “trunk” trains, then pick-up goods trains radiated from those, covering perhaps one long ramble down and back a double-ended branch, or popping in to serve one or more BLTs. This meant that the pick-up goods were more often than not headed by 0-6-0 tender engines shedded at the nodal points, or nearby, and the branch loco (latterly usually an M7 on the western or an H on the eastern) remained tied to its PP set. The Central double-ended branches followed this (E4, E5, D3 or D1 locos until M7 and H crept over the borders and displaced them), but the LBSCR, and SR and BR afterwards, had a lot of very good 0-6-2T with driving wheels of different sizes, and they were commonly used as per the 0-6-0 tender engines.

 

The trouble with trying to give generalised answers here is that things weren’t by any means totally standardised, although the SR was mad-keen on trying to achieve that. The complex of branches east of Exeter, for instance, were a little world of their own, with busy and complex operating patterns, and the IoW was stuffed full of railways, all of which would have been thought of as branches on the mainland, but operated near-suburban density of traffic in the holiday season.

 

There were also odd little electrified branches in the London area, West Croydon to Wimbledon being like a country branch in operational terms right up until it morphed into a tramway.

 

Hard to summarise it all neatly!

[Nearholmer]

3 hours ago, Typeapproval said:

I already established that there were few specific Goods locos on the Southern

The main goods classes that served branches were 700, C2X, C, 01, Q and Q1 and the E3 and E4 tanks. I think all of them were fitted with brakes for passenger work (slight doubt in mind about 01), they were largely used as goods engines, with the exception of the E4, which was fairly dual-purpose, and the C, which could handle a pretty nippy passenger train when needed (excursions etc). You will find pictures of all of them on passenger trains, but I guess nobody much bothered to be out and about photographing goods trains at all hours.

 

What the SR didn’t have was armies of unfitted 0-6-0 tender engines with only loco brakes for flogging long mineral trains about, or vast numbers of unfitted 0-6-0T for shunting and short trips, because there wasn’t much of that work. There were locos that fitted those descriptions, but not many.

Edited January 14 by Nearholmer

[bécasse]

This lists mainland Southern Railway termini (other than those in central London), those with a red background had been electrified by World War II and those marked with a ¶ were habitually worked by pull & push rail motors for at least part of the Southern Railway/Region period (although not necessarily exclusively). Some existed only for part of the Southern Railway period (some very briefly indeed). A few through secondary lines were also partly worked by rail motors.

The only SR pull & push units available ready-to-run from the "trade" have been very limited in scope  being either convertions from Maunsell SO and BCK carriages which only existed as such for a few years in the early 1960s or ex-LSWR gate stock which was only used on a few of South Western branches.

[Nearholmer]

That is a really useful summary, although non-southeronians might need to beware that quite a number of these weren’t exactly cute little BLTs.

Edited January 14 by Nearholmer

[Typeapproval]

Hi,

 

Amazing how helpful you all have been. I still have a way to go with the MSLR model so it might be some while before I could turn south. However with the information I'm amassing in a very short time and the advice of what looks to be an extremely helpful book, I think it quite possible that in the fullness of time, I could build a quite representative model. The thought of Lyme Regis is particularly attractive. The Adams Radial is still available and secondhand ones are reasonably priced. Any suggestions of suitable coaching stock, bearing in mind the advice already given about SR coaches.

 

How nice that so much help is available. I came across the "Southern Railway Group" quite by chance, definitely a "Happy accident".

 

I have the feeling that the "Brookwood Necropolis" branch might be a bit, as was said a bit of a dead end as a model, though it is probably one of the essential Southern Terminus. I understand that when it was opened it was the dead centre of the area!

 

Regards

David.

 

[Mallard60022]

28 minutes ago, Typeapproval said:

Hi,

 

Amazing how helpful you all have been. I still have a way to go with the MSLR model so it might be some while before I could turn south. However with the information I'm amassing in a very short time and the advice of what looks to be an extremely helpful book, I think it quite possible that in the fullness of time, I could build a quite representative model. The thought of Lyme Regis is particularly attractive. The Adams Radial is still available and secondhand ones are reasonably priced. Any suggestions of suitable coaching stock, bearing in mind the advice already given about SR coaches.

 

How nice that so much help is available. I came across the "Southern Railway Group" quite by chance, definitely a "Happy accident".

 

I have the feeling that the "Brookwood Necropolis" branch might be a bit, as was said a bit of a dead end as a model, though it is probably one of the essential Southern Terminus. I understand that when it was opened it was the dead centre of the area!

 

Regards

David.

 

Some decent stuff down the Lyme Branch in the Summer. Coaches (5) off/on one Main Line Expresses. Double headed Radials. Later there were Midland Micky Mouse tanks and Bog Carts.

Plenty of References for Coaches on normal services.

There is already a layout of Lyme but I've not seen one of Swanage. 

Phil

[phil gollin]

5 hours ago, bécasse said:

This lists mainland Southern Railway termini (other than those in central London), those with a red background had been electrified by World War II and those marked with a ¶ were habitually worked by pull & push rail motors for at least part of the Southern Railway/Region period (although not necessarily exclusively). Some existed only for part of the Southern Railway period (some very briefly indeed). A few through secondary lines were also partly worked by rail motors.

The only SR pull & push units available ready-to-run from the "trade" have been very limited in scope  being either convertions from Maunsell SO and BCK carriages which only existed as such for a few years in the early 1960s or ex-LSWR gate stock which was only used on a few of South Western branches.

 

.

 

To the central section you could add West Croydon/Wimbledon for the Mitcham branch.

 

.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

But that was all “double ended”, no full termini, wasn’t it? If “double ended” branches are added, the list becomes very long.

 

Coulsdon North?

 

And, what about Chard Town? I think that was briefly a SR station, with SR services, although it sort of wasn’t a terminus. Controversial one that!

 

Lynton! And, you can get most of the stock for the r-t-r these days.

 

You get a few more if you add goods only lines, but where does one set the limit in that case?

 

 

 

 

Edited January 14 by Nearholmer

[bécasse]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

But that was all “double ended”, no full termini, wasn’t it? If “double ended” branches are added, the list becomes very long.

 

Is Crystal Palace High Level an omission? Greenwich Park isn’t, because it never made it to the SR.

Second entry down on the right-hand South Eastern list - white on red because it was electrified (quite early in fact).

 

As you say Greenwich Park was omitted because it closed during the Great War - although it remained intact but derelict more or less throughout the 1920s. I have often thought that it would make an interesting "might have been" model addition to the Southern Electric network with a (perfectly practical) connection cut through towards Maze Hill and the station, in its cutting, rebuilt by the SR in a simple compact style. The basic train service would be by a diversion of the South London line 2-EPB trains across a new connection between Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye, running through to the loop platform at Maze Hill off-peak (to connect with Greenwich-Woolwich line trains) but turning back at Greenwich Park itself during the peak. In addition to the basic service, empty units (4-CEPs perhaps) would work between Victoria/Stewarts Lane and Slade Green for maintenance and C-class hauled ex-SECR birdcage sets would work empty between Maze Hill sidings and Victoria/Blackfriars to form excursions. There might be some inter-regional/divisional freight to/from Hoo Junction too. The period would be tail end of the 1950s.

[Nearholmer]

Edited accordingly. 
 

Good scheme.

 

Coulsdon North, and Lynton?

 

 

Edited January 14 by Nearholmer