Accentuate the negative - who's trying to kill the hobby?

[Gilbert]

Weston Super Mare yesterday was absolutely rammed and with a wide age range of both genders...Oliver from Squires was very busy indeed as were other traders. I was also visited by a young lad who (with parental blessing) has visited us at Missenden and also now helps out operating our group of layouts at local shows. He asked for a list of where we'll be in the coming months and showed me some pictures of progress on his (very good) home layout.

Chris H

Edited January 15 by Gilbert

[arran]

45 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I think that's very unfair indeed. There's a great deal of difference between "can't be bothered" and finding the considerable amount of effort involved getting too much, and I don't believe the hobby owes them more than thanks for everything they have done.

 

There's nothing stopping another group organising a similar show.

and im sure someone will start another .

Edited January 15 by arran

[arran]

34 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

As I've said elsewhere, WMRC had no responsibility to carry the flag for the whole model railway community and yet here they are being asked to do so by people without a say in the matter.

That's what you think and that's fine , we can all have our opinions 

34 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

 

They had a meeting, did a democratic vote at said meeting and agreed it was time to call it a day for the reasons stated.

 

There are plenty of other shows where the same exhibitors will be, the same retailers and the same demonstrations.  Warley might have been the biggest, someone else will pick up the mantle now.

I never knew there was other shows Thanks for pointing that out .

[Graham108]

53 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Warley might have been the biggest, someone else will pick up the mantle now.

How does York compare in size to Warley?

[Neil]

13 minutes ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

I find a couple of things especially grating among the general doom and gloom: 

1. The contrast between the affection for Hattons and Warley now they're gone and the almost universal negativity about Hornby's 2024 OO launch. I for one will miss Hornby if they go bust and there's virtually nothing entry level in OO and no train sets. 

2. The suggestion that "younger modellers are priced out of the hobby/there's nothing entry level any more". Often made by super detail modellers who haven't bought anything entry level for decades and haven't studied the Railroad or train set range lately.

Once you adjust for inflation Hornby's prices are pretty flat at the entry level, while median household earnings have doubled since 1980 in real terms, meaning that the hobby's cheaper than ever. 

 

Oh dear I've become far too interested in this topic however,

 

Point 1 - Agree

 

Point 2 - Disagree.

 

In the early eighties I bought the cheapest version of  Hornby's Smokey Joe for around nine quid. Here the 1980 catalogue price is given as £8.95 for the slightly more deluxe Caledonian version. Taking a look at how much that model now costs at Rails of Sheffield with a 10% discount £44.54, more than four times the price. 

 

Also the problem with looking at wages rises in isolation doesn't give the whole picture. Housing costs have shot up leaving less disposable income. An example, my first house a two up two down terrace in York, bought in 1985 for £13,000 last sold in 2017 for £177,500 according to Zoopla. So just comparing wage rises to price rises of model railway items gives a false view of affordability.

[wagonbasher]

12 minutes ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

I find a couple of things especially grating among the general doom and gloom: 

1. The contrast between the affection for Hattons and Warley now they're gone and the almost universal negativity about Hornby's 2024 OO launch. I for one will miss Hornby if they go bust and there's virtually nothing entry level in OO and no train sets. 

2. The suggestion that "younger modellers are priced out of the hobby/there's nothing entry level any more". Often made by super detail modellers who haven't bought anything entry level for decades and haven't studied the Railroad or train set range lately.

Once you adjust for inflation Hornby's prices are pretty flat at the entry level, while median household earnings have doubled since 1980 in real terms, meaning that the hobby's cheaper than ever. 

I think as a child you play trains (track on the carpet) and if you develop the hobby you may become a  railway modeller in whatever way you want that to be.

 

My first loco was second hand in about 1975, it was a triang Jinty, I was 10. then I had a GWR Hornby pannier as new and by the time I had track down on some boards I had a Hornby Duchess, well I thought I was king of the world.

 

Well, I could buy them again today on eBay, the duchess is £15 with the tanks under £10.  They almost give away second hand track.  
 

it’s not like computer games where old versions are not supported.  You can pick any level to enter at.  There are loads of wagons and coaches that are dirt cheap.  Sure they lack the finesse and maybe sound of the latest models but you get what you can to meet the depth of your pocket.

 

My brother and I had second hand scalextix, loads of rusty track and a whole array of cars that didn’t work and a few that did.  Dad was aboard, We soon learnt to clean track, mend pick up brushes, swop motors in and out of different cars.  That’s how you learn, isnt it.

 

Today I scratch build / kit build. My modelling time is limited and so projects take a while, my spend is quite small as my expenditure is staggered in line with my progress.

Still loving the hobby, wish I had more time to do it!

Andy

[wagonbasher]

6 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

Oh dear I've become far too interested in this topic however,

 

Point 1 - Agree

 

Point 2 - Disagree.

 

In the early eighties I bought the cheapest version of  Hornby's Smokey Joe for around nine quid. Here the 1980 catalogue price is given as £8.95 for the slightly more deluxe Caledonian version. Taking a look at how much that model now costs at Rails of Sheffield with a 10% discount £44.54, more than four times the price. 

 

Also the problem with looking at wages rises in isolation doesn't give the whole picture. Housing costs have shot up leaving less disposable income. An example, my first house a two up two down terrace in York, bought in 1985 for £13,000 last sold in 2017 for £177,500 according to Zoopla. So just comparing wage rises to price rises of model railway items gives a false view of affordability.

Caledonian smokey joe on eBay, buy it now.   £11.20 boxed.   
 

Andy

[woodenhead]

42 minutes ago, arran said:

That's what you think and that's fine , we can all have our opinions 

I never knew there was other shows Thanks for pointing that out .

You're welcome.

 

But equally, you cannot put your opinion onto the WMRC - it's not your busiess to decide what they can and cannot do.

[arran]

2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

You're welcome.

 

But equally, you cannot put your opinion onto the WMRC - it's not your busiess to decide what they can and cannot do.

IM not telling them what they cant Or Cannot do . Just expressing an opinion that's different to yours on their decision .

[woodenhead]

28 minutes ago, Graham108 said:

How does York compare in size to Warley?

32 layouts at York last time around so about the third of the size, so about the size of the new Key Model World show at Warley in the Spring (35 model railways), but that new one has added non railway modelling as well, plus Pete Waterman's layout will take up some space too.

 

The two biggest shows I can think of (as I attend them) are Model Rail Scotland (53 layouts in 2024) and Stafford (54 in 2023 and 44 confirmed so far for 2024).  BRM backed ones are similar in size to the Key Model World shows.

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, arran said:

IM not telling them what they cant Or Cannot do . Just expressing an opinion that's different to yours on their decision .

But basically that opinion is telling them they owe the model railway community a big show every year which is poor form.

[Metropolitan]

1 hour ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

I find a couple of things especially grating among the general doom and gloom: 

1. The contrast between the affection for Hattons and Warley now they're gone and the almost universal negativity about Hornby's 2024 OO launch. I for one will miss Hornby if they go bust and there's virtually nothing entry level in OO and no train sets. 

2. The suggestion that "younger modellers are priced out of the hobby/there's nothing entry level any more". Often made by super detail modellers who haven't bought anything entry level for decades and haven't studied the Railroad or train set range lately.

Once you adjust for inflation Hornby's prices are pretty flat at the entry level, while median household earnings have doubled since 1980 in real terms, meaning that the hobby's cheaper than ever. 

Times change. I believe that modelling will come back as the fact that feeling or seeing something physical in your hand trumps anything on a screen. But it will be a long time. And I can't see how the the real world railway system we have now is going to inspire young modellers. It's no good blaming the media. The only people allowed anywhere near anything interesting are old,

Edited January 15 by Metropolitan

[AY Mod]

7 minutes ago, arran said:

Just expressing an opinion that's different to yours on their decision .

 

As long you're not expecting it to be a popular one.

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, Metropolitan said:

And I can't see how the the real world railway system we have now is going to inspire young modellers.

 

Go and look at heritage operations. You'll find more kids there, proportionately, than on the national network.

[arran]

4 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

But basically that opinion is telling them they owe the model railway community a big show every year which is poor form.

They don't owe the model railway world a big  show or any show for that matter  , but  that's how you interpreted what i said.

 

Don't worry others will and have been sniffing about the NEC 

[bmthtrains - David]

The media will always take a lightweight approach to stories like this by grabbing a fun headline for clickbait rather than digging deeper for the truth, but then actually isn’t that partly because at the end of the day it doesn’t matter? On the scale of newsworthy events happening in the world, the (misguided) idea that a hobby is seeing a slump due to an aging demographic is frankly not worth the time of any serious journalistic investigation even if it were true given what else is wrong in the world.
 

The internet frenzy, which as Andy has noted is very tame on here compared to Facebook/Twitter, etc., is like any fandom, in that there is no group that hates something more than its own fans. In this hobby I suspect this is due in part to a huge audience of armchair railway modellers who just like to read and complain rather than actually take part in the hobby, but also an ugly element of the hobby that also creeps in to RMWeb on occasion where the hobby is reduced to pure consumption - shopping and collecting, wish listing and despair at every new non-announcement of their dream loco, and displaying vast collections of rolling stock to show how much money they’ve spent, with the creative part, the modelmaking, forgotten.

 

While the closure of Hatton’s and the end of Warley are both sad to hear, will it in anyway affect how I partake in the hobby? Not one bit. For some overseas I appreciated Hatton’s will have an impact, but for most of us life and the hobby goes on. I for one am grateful for the past 15 of engagement on RMWeb that means I get to avoid most of the horrors of other social media platforms. That all of this has been discussed with relative calm and informed thinking is a huge relief.

 

Haters gonna hate as they say.

 

David 

[arran]

5 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

As long you're not expecting it to be a popular one.

Now Andy When ever  have i ever worried about that !!!!

[ardbealach]

The last Warley Show and the end of trading by Hattons was a shock to all us railway modellers when we first heard the news.  

The Telegraph and Guardian are just clickbait, and like much of what we knew as the professionalism of Fleet Street, that has now long gone, and they should be simply ignored.

A new ‘Warley’ will arise.  It might not be the one we reminisce about.  A new generation will make their own ‘Warley’.  And we will all attend it, whatever or wherever it might be.  Good luck to them.

The loss of Hattons is equally sad; a much respected trader and innovator.  But let’s not forget Richard Davies is young enough, and I hope enthusiastic enough, to start a new model railway venture.  I look forward to that if that is his decision.

 

It is clear that the Hatton’s business model was not going to work to anyone's advantage into the future.  How much more we respect the Hatton’s management who went about the closing their business in the orderly manner it has been carried out.  I am sure that there are others out there who would have seen the closing of their bujsiness as an opportunity to make the money and then run away leaving behind debts to creditors and employees. 

 

 Looking back on my own life, at nearly eighty years of age, I am a glass half full type of person - an optimist. And we should be optimists about the future of our hobby. [Alisdair]

[Reorte]

7 minutes ago, Metropolitan said:

Times change. I believe that modelling will come back as the fact that feeling or seeing something physical in your hand trumps anything on a screen. But it will be a long time. And I can't see how the the real world railway system we have now is going to inspire young modellers. It's no good blaming the media. 

 Whilst I'm more than happy to share that view of the real railway good models of it aren't unknown (and despite not being keen on the real thing I can still enjoy a good model of it). I've noticed that there's a bit more of a modern bias in railway simulation, and a younger demographic, so it clearly inspires some.

[Metropolitan]

3 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Go and look at heritage operations. You'll find more kids there, proportionately, than on the national network.

You are right! But do the heritage railways let youngsters ride on the footplate? Do they let them get to touch the stuff and maybe oil up an engine? No they don't. 

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, arran said:

HI All 

 

Shows come and shows go all the time But this was the biggest ,  its not only a loss to the visiting public but also the traders and manufacturers that that were attending .

 

I can understand as folk get older they cant be bothered , but this was One club that built up the National show  and to a point had a responsibility to the hobby , but they basically had a meeting to rubber stamp its demise . 

 

As for Hattons !!!!    im sad for the staff  losing their job.  Plenty other places to get models 

 

Regards Arran

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, arran said:

They don't owe the model railway world a big  show or any show for that matter  , but  that's how you interpreted what i said.

 

Don't worry others will and have been sniffing about the NEC 

But it's what you think they had and they simply gave it up without asking your opinion.

 

And I am sure other's are looking - but how many people realistically want to take on mounting a 90 layout, plus support model railway exhibtion at the NEC.  Key Model World have a toe in the water and they are quite good, along with World of Railways(BRM), at putting shows together and it's rather more than just sniffing about I think which will probably result in most people running a mile when they see just how big of a risk the undertaking is, enough that Warley set up a limited company to protect the club as best they could.

[PMP]

1 hour ago, arran said:

HI All 

 

I can understand as folk get older they cant be bothered , but this was One club that built up the National show  and to a point had a responsibility to the hobby , but they basically had a meeting to rubber stamp its demise . 

 

Regards Arran

 

 

The only responsibility they had as a limited company was to the shareholders. As a company they have decided the current business model is unsustainable for various reasons. They have said they’re looking at other options including a smaller show. 
So responsibly they have :

A. Mentioned a few years back (RM interview IIRC) that Warley Show would see significant changes including downsizing.

B. Completed their run at the NEC and advised everybody in good time that the NEC show will not happen in 2024.

C. Presumably have acted in accordance with their legal Limited Company regulations, and their clubs constitution in the cessation of hosting their club exhibition at the NEC.

 

Please tell us what specific responsibility you feel they had to the hobby regarding the show? 

[Ian Hargrave]

53 minutes ago, Graham108 said:

How does York compare in size to Warley?

Smaller,quieter,easier access by car & free parking within short walking distance. Not so much trade….it’s over the Easter weekend and virtually no show from the manufacturers apart from Bachmann who keep a token presence. Some excellent layouts and a good variety of them too. Relaxed & friendly with good sit down catering facilities upstairs ( there’s a lift too ) On several floors . My personal choice of all that I have visited over a period of 20years. There was a courtesy bus from York station but I don’t know if the Show still provides one. If within reasonable travelling distance go & enjoy. Warley it is not and never had any pretensions of being similar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Smaller,quieter,easier access by car & free parking within short walking distance. Not so much trade….it’s over the Easter weekend and virtually no show from the manufacturers apart from Bachmann who keep a token presence. Some excellent layouts and a good variety of them too. Relaxed & friendly with good sit down catering facilities upstairs ( there’s a lift too ) On several floors . My personal choice of all that I have visited over a period of 20years. There was a courtesy bus from York station but I don’t know if the Show still provides one. If within reasonable travelling distance go & enjoy. Warley it is not and never had any pretensions of being similar.

Watch out for any car boot sales that can also occur the same weekend, I usually attend on the Sunday (Easter Day) as most things are shut so the M62 over the Pennines is a joy and what better way to avoid excessive chocolate, model trains.

[arran]

2 minutes ago, PMP said:

The only responsibility they had as a limited company was to the shareholders. As a company they have decided the current business model is unsustainable for various reasons. They have said they’re looking at other options including a smaller show. 
So responsibly they have :

A. Mentioned a few years back (RM interview IIRC) that Warley Show would see significant changes including downsizing.

B. Completed their run at the NEC and advised everybody in good time that the NEC show will not happen in 2024.

C. Presumably have acted in accordance with their legal Limited Company regulations, and their clubs constitution in the cessation of hosting their club exhibition at the NEC.

 

Please tell us what specific responsibility you feel they had to the hobby regarding the show? 

option A 

 

Down sizing if its not getting the numbers , they didn't start in Hall 5 , cant remember what one it was in mind you .  

 

But its gone now so the King is dead !! Long live the New king who ever that may be