Heljan Class 07 Vs Hornby BR class 08 shunters

[Cliff M]

Hi all. I am very new to model railways and I am building my first layout after a lot of input from this forum. Thank you all.

I have been trying to buy a Class 08 shunter and have found that Bachman only has the purple/blue, black, or bright orange liveried ones available.

I wanted the BR green livery so in the absence of Bachman I have been looking at the Hornby Class 08, 0-6-0, D3069 - Era 5.  and the Heljan Class 07 both from Kernow Model Rail.  Does anyone have any experience or comments on either of these?

I am using DCC and would prefer sound-fitted.

I am particularly interested in how they run mechanically, and the build quality rather than their scale detailing, etc.

2937 Heljan Class 07 Diesel number D2998 BR Green wasp stripes (kernowmodelrailcentre.com)

R30301TXS Hornby BR, Class 08, 0-6-0, D3069 - Era 5 (kernowmodelrailcentre.com)

Many thanks  

 

[Albie the plumber]

The Hornby model is IMO  the better model  in terms of running qualities and indeed detail .

I did own Bachmann versions of the 08 but they used to pick up dirt from the rails like mad .

While both models can be converted to DCC sound , again , the Hornby model has more space .

I've got an 07 waiting in the wings for sound treatment .

It's a lovely model but would benefit from having stay alive .

There are videos on YouTube showing installation of sound and stay alive .

Personally recommend stay alive in the 08 too as I have models both with and without and the difference was notable .

HTH

 

[ColinK]

I agree, the Hornby 08 is an excellent and reliable slow runner.  I’ve two Heljan 07s, one of my favourite loco types, but both are terrible runners, indeed they just sit on a shelf and never get used.

 

All three are sound fitted, the 08 I did myself, the 07s I got fitted professionally.   They are quite tricky to do.  Unless you are really experienced at sound fitting I recommend you get it done professionally - fitting isn’t expensive, far cheaper than either wrecking the loco or destroying an expensive DCC sound chip.

[andyman7]

From a modelling point of view, the Class 08 was an enormous, ubiquitous class found virtually everywhere, whilst the 07s were a small class based around Southampton docks. So unless you have a very specific locale in mind the 08 is an obvious choice.

[PMP]

I have DC versions of both and they are excellent runners. Some of the early Hornby 08's had bearing problems so steer clear of those if you're in the secondhand market for them. It was a short lived issue and not all examples suffered from it.

Another type that may be worth looking at is the Heljan 05 if you're after a BR green locomotive and the prototype region etc isn't of major concern. Bachmann 08's are also a good bet, quality reliable models, noting you've already been hunting for one.

[SRman]

Mechanically there's not a lot to choose between any of the Hornby 08/09s, Bachmann 08/09s, and Heljan 07s, as all have decent motors with heavy flywheels and low gearing.

 

The Heljan 07 suffers from poor electrical pickups and a short, rigid (vertically) wheelbase reducing the pickup area over potential dead spots. While there is no vertical travel allowed in any of the axles, there is a lot of side-play, which contributes to the pickup problems because the short and fairly soft pickup strips cannot maintain contact with all of the wheel backs at their extremes of side travel. I did a fix for this on the leading axle, which seems to have the most problems with the excessive side-play, by soldering extra phosphor-bronze strips leading back from the front edges of the existing pickups, bearing on the trailing edges of the driving wheels, and giving a lot more side-play allowance.

 

Earlier Bachmann 08/09s had poor pickups too, with the pickup strips bearing on the tops of the wheel treads: later releases were much improved. Their 08/09 allows some vertical movement on the centre axle.

The Hornby 08/09 has more delicate detailing (better detail in my opinion), and also lacks any vertical play on any of its axles. 

Fitting sound in the Hornby and Bachmann models is relatively easy, the Heljan 07 is much more difficult due to lack of free space (I haven't done one, and I note that a couple of other contributors have had theirs done professionally).

[Hal Nail]

A couple of previous threads are worth looking at. Hornby and Bachmann 08 compared in the attached link, plus the specific Heljan 07 thread obviously. I find searching Google including RMWeb in the subject, usually comes up with info.

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

12 hours ago, SRman said:

Earlier Bachmann 08/09s had poor pickups too, with the pickup strips bearing on the tops of the wheel treads: later releases were much improved. Their 08/09 allows some vertical movement on the centre axle.

Of the two mechanisms, Bachmann and Hornby, I'll take the Bachmann every time for operation. (Once covered in typical filth there's nowt to choose between them for appearance.)

My Bachmann specimens are early and the wipers have been lightly reformed to bear on the flange tops , which is effectively self cleaning and requires no attention.

 

And then there is the killer advantage, the centre wheelset is sprung by a saddle acting on the axle. For reasons known only to Bachmann the spring action is often not strong enough, and the downward travel permitted the axle very limited: but this is a ten minute job to rectify.

 

Undo underside screws to remove keeper plate.

 

If the centre wheelset rises freely of its own accord, the spring action is fine. If not lift out wheelsets, lift out saddle, if it  is glued by solid grease clean up and reassess, if that is of no benefit stretch spring slightly so the centre wheelset rises about 1mm compared to the unsprung axles. (Non-precision job.)

 

Then take the keeper plate and file a 0.5mm deep notch under the centre axle position, using a round swiss file, which will permit a little more downward travel. (Non-precision job.)

 

Clean up and reassemble. Done.

 

I have  a Hornby 08 (a worm shaft bearing screamer which will be a fond memory for some here) got cheap s/h. It's a fine model for appearance, especailly as it is unweathered because it lives in the 'occasional freight train vehicle stock' siding, and goes out being delivered new in a freight once in a while. That way if it momentarily loses pick up the mighty loco up front solves the problem (the decoder in the 08 is set for no time delay before restart in event of power loss) just the poor guard gets a sudden rug..

[Cliff M]

Thanks all. Very helpful and detailed. So I think I will place a pre-order for the Hornby 08 with sound fitted at £237.99 from Kernow.

 

Do I need a stay-alive fitted as well with the Hornby?  Can I do that part myself?

 

My layout has no radius 1 curves at all. 

[Cliff M]

I meant to add. Can you give me your experiences with uncoupling please.?

Is it better with magnets under the track, ramps, powered systems, solenoids, etc.?

Or is there no real practical solution?

Am I right in thinking I need to change the NEM couplers for Kadee?

What would you use and recommend?

 

Many thanks

 

 

 

[johnd]

Have you considered the Model Rail/Heljan class 11 diesel shunter from which the BR class 08  was developed ?

 

A new model due to arrive shortly.

[Albie the plumber]

13 hours ago, Cliff M said:

Thanks all. Very helpful and detailed. So I think I will place a pre-order for the Hornby 08 with sound fitted at £237.99 from Kernow.

 

Do I need a stay-alive fitted as well with the Hornby?  Can I do that part myself?

 

My layout has no radius 1 curves at all. 

Regarding stay alive , my  advice would be to suck it and see .

If the performance over paintwork is poor then it could be an option .

Aftermarket V5 decoders usually have the 3 wires for the stay alive pre attached but I'm not sure if that is the case with factory fitted decoders.

Certain companies will fit stay alive for a reasonable fee e.g. Roads and rails .

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

13 hours ago, Cliff M said:

I meant to add. Can you give me your experiences with uncoupling please.?

Is it better with magnets under the track, ramps, powered systems, solenoids, etc.?

Or is there no real practical solution?

Am I right in thinking I need to change the NEM couplers for Kadee?

What would you use and recommend?

I use two RTR autocouplers which uncouple reliably on the same track magnets, fitted on straight track only:

Kadee, mounted either at standard height or at near scale height for 4mm (and they still work on the standard Kadee magnets!); they are not mixed however, a conversion programme to 'all at near scale height' is underway.

 

Bachmann's miniature tension locks with the Brian Kirby modification for magnetic uncoupling. Nowhere near as sophisticated as Kadee, but they do replicate the UK's  loose coupled freight action very well, mounted with the bumper bar face in the same plane as the buffer faces, usually by shortening both the coupler pocket and the 'swallow tail' on the coupler. Couplers mounted at this spacing allow stock to buffer up when pushed, and pull out to 2mm between buffers when pulled, and there is complete protection against buffer locking. For 4W wagons of up to 12' wb this works down to 24" minimum radius.

 

All autocoupling for both couplers is on straight or nearly so track.

 

I would say these are pragmatic practical solutions. The Kadee is superior in looking decently like the knuckle coupler standard on the gangwayed coach stock for the location I model. The miniature tension lock looks all wrong, but works.

 

The first thing I learned when trying the miniature tension locks over 20 years past was that the Bachmann and Hornby patterns were incompatible if reliability was required. Since the way greater majority were Bachmann's that was what I chose: and this was fortunate as they have a non-ferromagnetic hook which made the Brain Kirby mod possible.

[31A]

20 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Then take the keeper plate and file a 0.5mm deep notch under the centre axle position, using a round swiss file, which will permit a little more downward travel. (Non-precision job.)

Even less precision job: I fitted small washers over the keeper plate retaining screws, sandwiched between the keeper plate and the chassis block, which give an extra smidgen of downward travel to the sprung axle.

 

Quite agree re. performance, I have three Bachmann ones and one Hornby; the Hornby doesn't get used as it stalls every time on the dead frogs of the Peco double slips (OK there shouldn't really be any dead frogs on the layout, but when I built it Peco didn't make live frog double slips, and changing it now would be too much of a faff).  Whereas thanks to the sprung middle axle, the Bachmann ones sail across every time, even at dead slow.

 

The later Bachmann 08s have modified pick ups which don't collect crud, but the earlier ones I modified by soldering short pieces of wire across the tops of the pick up wipers, such that the wipers now run on top of the flanges rather than on top of the wheel treads; they no longer collect crud, as @34theletterbetweenB&D says.

 

[Multigauge]

I bought a second hand Hornby 08 a couple of years ago and it still blows me away how well it performs on DC. Lovely slow speed, never stalls and looks great. It sits square on the track and moves smoothly without any wobble; it is also very quiet. I have put a DCC chip in and I'm not entirely happy with the performance as it seems to slow down on some sections for no apparent reason, and then speeds up.

 

I also bought a second hand Bachmann 08 recently which hasn't seen much use yet, but when I test ran it, whilst I was happy with it, it didn't make me as smitten as the Hornby one does.

 

I have a Heljan 07 which looks lovely, but I think its running qualities are only adequate - not a patch on either of the 08's - and it sort of has a weave/wobble to it.

 

On the subject of couplings I like kadees. I like the way they look and operate. No, they are not prototypical (unless they are on coaching stock, old EMU's, EDL's of 33 1's), but they do look better IMO that tension locks. However, I have found on my short shunting layout that placing the magnets on even the slightest curve ends in unreliable operation. 

I have been trying to have a go with the BK method as alternative, but I can't seem to get the staples to adhere to the coupling tails very well; need more practice.

 

[SRman]

14 minutes ago, Multigauge said:

I bought a second hand Hornby 08 a couple of years ago and it still blows me away how well it performs on DC. Lovely slow speed, never stalls and looks great. It sits square on the track and moves smoothly without any wobble; it is also very quiet. I have put a DCC chip in and I'm not entirely happy with the performance as it seems to slow down on some sections for no apparent reason, and then speeds up.

...

 

 

It can be too quiet!! I recorded this one at Doncaster in 1999. I have yet to find a sound project that includes this racket. 🤣🤣
 

 

[ColinK]

I use Kadees, they are good when set at the right height.  They couple/uncouple fine on straight track, but not on curves.   I’ve had problems of stock uncoupling where gradients change when one of the couplings has been not quite the correct height.   But don’t bang them into buffer stops etc. as that knocks them out of adjustment.

 

I think tension locks are more reliable, but unmodified harder to uncouple.  Note that if you don’t mind your stock being ‘handed’, you can remove the hook from one end.

[Flying Pig]

9 hours ago, SRman said:

It can be too quiet!! I recorded this one at Doncaster in 1999. I have yet to find a sound project that includes this racket. 🤣🤣

 

That'll be a Farish one with the crankpins rubbing on the platform.

[ITG]

On 17/01/2024 at 16:45, Cliff M said:

I meant to add. Can you give me your experiences with uncoupling please.?

Is it better with magnets under the track, ramps, powered systems, solenoids, etc.?

Or is there no real practical solution?

Am I right in thinking I need to change the NEM couplers for Kadee?

What would you use and recommend?

 

Many thanks

 

 

 

As I use tension locks (too much trouble to change to other on a lot of stock) I have found the Heathcote Electronics servo operated uncoupling ramps to be effective. As with all static type devices, the downside is being able to uncouple only in that specific location, but I haven’t really found that too much of an issue.

i did modify the Heathcote standard offering, which uses bent steel rods to push up the ramp, to firstly two inline plastic or wood rods/tubes. Two inline (ie an inch apart along the track centre) because one connects to the servo and the other is simply a guide to keep the ramp straight in line with rails. I then amended this with experience on the under construction layout to using two square section brass tubes, one inside the other. Being square, the rise of the ramp stays true to the rails alignment.

Control is via a push button, powered by 12v dc.

Ian

[Cliff M]

Great thanks all. So I think I am going to use Kadee for the loco and the 'end' pieces of rolling stock but I like the magnetic couplers from Hunt Couplings aka West Hill Wagon Works for all the 'permanently attached stock' as they just seem less fiddly to use.

 

Have you any experience of these?  What size for a Bachman Class 37 00 gauge or a Hornby Class 08?

 

Many thanks 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

34 minutes ago, Cliff M said:

Have you any experience of these?  What size for a Bachman Class 37 00 gauge or a Hornby Class 08?

With any coupler system to be installed in NEM pockets, may I suggest that the best way is to acquire and keep to hand a test set covering the size range. This is because no one else knows what minimum curve radius and loco and stock combinations you will be operating, so there's no 'one size fits all' answer, if looking for best appearance. (Obviously enough you could opt for the longest coupler available, and have everything spaced off like 1950's Triang...)