Loco Coal from the GCR via Banbury

[Compound2632]

I'm reposting this from my wagon-building topic. The bit that has really intrigued me is the implication that the Great Western was obtaining loco coal from collieries on the Great Central - i.e. in the East Midlands or South Yorkshire - in addition to the famous South Wales steam coal which its engines are said to have been designed for. This cannot have started before the opening of the Woodford Halse - Banbury line, though coal from this area could have been obtained via the Midland and Bordesley - as gas coal for Swindon was. (Photographic evidence of GW gas coal hopper wagons at Water Orton c. 1920, discussed in a previous topic in this sub-forum.) I'm wondering which sheds received this coal - there seems to be no other clue as to the location, though Iron Duke's home shed an rostered workings at this period would perhaps help.

 

Great Western loco coal wagons are in the news a bit, with Rapido announcing an N19; this appeared on a Facebook Group "19th Century Railway Enthusiasts" notwithstanding the c. 1906 date:

 

 

According to my notes from Atkins et al., GWR Goods Wagons, No. 53347 is diagram N4 of Lot 330 and No. 53490 is an N3 of Lot 368, both 20 ton wagons built c. 1900/1, but already repainted with the large G W lettering - though not the full 25" as seen on the wagon on the extreme left but scaled to fit the available space above the drop doors. What does the inscription say? I get:

 

To --- -- -----------

--------- Colliery

GCRy via Banbury

 

The wagon next to the right of No. 53490 is from the same lot, [5]349[?] but still in its original livery - small G.W.R just visible at the RH end - which does raise the question of what colour each of these wagons is. 

 

I think the wagon on the extreme right must be another N4; it has the same style of top beading as No. 53347. The inscription To Carry 20 Tons is above the LH door on both this and its neighbour.

 

The wagon on the extreme left looks taller; its number 539[??] implies that it is an N2 of Lot 462, also a 20 ton type, since it's clearly not a bogie wagon. Not having the book in my hands, I can't check on these subtleties of appearance.

Edited February 10 by Compound2632

[Miss Prism]

My notes for this picture are 'Laira, c 1900'. Without checking the build dates of the wagons portrayed, I'm inclined to think the GWS date of c 1906 is more correct!

 

I'll be back...

 

 

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

My notes for this picture are 'Laira, c 1900'. Without checking the build dates of the wagons portrayed, I'm inclined to think the GWS date of c 1906 is more correct!

 

Yes, large G W rules out a date earlier than 1904 even before one considers the wagons.

 

Loco coal by rail from the East Midlands to Plymouth seems a bit of a stretch though of course the presence of the written instruction on the side of the wagons doesn't necessarily mean the wagons are being used for that purpose!

Edited February 3 by Compound2632

[Miss Prism]

23 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Yes, large G W rules out a date earlier than 1904 even before one considers the wagons.

 

Yes.

 

Actually, I'm questioning my Laira attribute. Offhand, I don't think the Singles went west of Newton, but I'm probably wrong about that as well!

 

[The Stationmaster]

37 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, large G W rules out a date earlier than 1904 even before one considers the wagons.

 

Loco coal by rail from the East Midlands to Plymouth seems a bit of a stretch though of course the presence of the written instruction on the side of the wagons doesn't necessarily mean the wagons are being used for that purpose!

The wagons would be sent where teh Stores Dept at Swindon said r they were to be sent.  there was regular train of loco coal empties from the West of England to Soith wales (usually Rogerstone but at  times if might have run to Pontypool Road.   And similarIy I doubt it got to Laira off the GC viw Banbury in the first place.

 

There would have been some cot logic in supplying Banbury with coal off the GC and don't forget that the Western - well into BR days - used different grades of coal for different jobs hence at large depots there was a 'passenger side' (or section) for coaling and a side (or section) for engines on other work.

 

I've never been sure about teh story that Western engines were designed to bue rn soft Welsh coal because plenty of them in the northern part of the Company's area always seemed to have used coal from local pits.  Don't forget that it cost the railway money to move coal and managing everyday costs was as much a factor in Churchward's and Collett's time as it was in BR days.  But having said that the nature of certain South Walian coal, partiicularly from the seams worked  in the Western Valleys was ideal for loco use because of good calorific value and low ash content.  But I bet that sheds in the Cardiff Valleys Division used the slightly harder coal from that area instead of hauling it a couple of dozen, or more miles.

[57xx]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The wagon on the extreme left looks taller; its number 539[??] implies that it is an N2 of Lot 462, also a 20 ton type, since it's clearly not a bogie wagon. Not having the book in my hands, I can't check on these subtleties of appearance.

 

The side stanchions and buffers look to be N2 to me. I think you may be right about the right hand most wagon too, one of the tell-tales of the N4 is that they had 12" deep solebars as opposed to 10" on other diagrams.

[DCB]

11 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Yes.

Actually, I'm questioning my Laira attribute. Offhand, I don't think the Singles went west of Newton, but I'm probably wrong about that as well!

Thing is I too understand that the Dean 4-2-2s didn't work beyond  NA on the Plymouth line and even then probably worked to Paignton  with Plymouth trains changing locos at Exeter.  However if one did work through It would be an event well worth photographing...
I can't believe the GWR worked loco coal through Banbury to Laira      Tyseley(?) perhaps,   

[The Stationmaster]

There are plenty of published photos of Dean Singles in the vicinity of Teignmouth, mostly on Class A trains, and apparently at one time a couple were allocated to Newton Abbot.  I'll have a look at Ahrons tomorrow and see if he has anything to say about them going beyond Newton towards Plymouth.

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, DCB said:

Tyseley(?) perhaps,   

 

There would be much more convenient ways of getting East Midlands coal to Tysley - via the Midland and Bordesley, for example - and also more convenient places to get it from - the South or North Staffordshire coalfields, etc. 

 

Would not the most obvious sheds be Banbury, Didcot, Reading, or Swindon? 

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There would be much more convenient ways of getting East Midlands coal to Tysley - via the Midland and Bordesley, for example - and also more convenient places to get it from - the South or North Staffordshire coalfields, etc. 

 

Would not the most obvious sheds be Banbury, Didcot, Reading, or Swindon? 

The obvious route - if there was such traffic - would be Banbury Swindon (actually Marston Crossing yard for many years) thence via Bristol (or possibly Melksham)).   As a route for perishables, particularly fish traffic , and mail traffic this lasted until the closure of the GC and had at one time been responsible for seeing GC Atlantics (and some GC 4-6-0s I think), succeeded by Ivatt Atlantics, and latterly B1 making their way south of Oxford with through engine working to Swindon.

 

There are definitely no direct coal trains listed off the GC towarfds Oxford in the winter 1910 STT however there are booked Coal , or Goods & Coal  trains running from Oxley and Bordesley to the London area plus the 03.50 Bordesley to Swindon Goods & Coal train which presumably could attach at Banbury.  

 

Interestingly the 04.10 Oxley Coal to the London area could increase its load from 50 to 70 at Banbury so might well have picked up coal off the GC.  But anything for the south west would, I would think, be far more likely to go via Swindon on the 03,50 Bordesley.  So definitely coal from the Midlands, and possibly the GC, running towards the London area, and maybe Swindon in 1910.   But Plymouth is one heck of a long way from Swindon and we don't know what sort of coal these trains were conveying although we can no doubt make a very good shot at certain coal passing between Bordesley and Swindon.

 

[Compound2632]

Looking at it through the other end of the telescope, the inscription says that anyone modelling the GC main line between Woodford Halse and at least Nottingham at this period can run some GW loco coal wagons!

Edited February 4 by Compound2632

[7TunnelShunter]

This may be very naive...min which case enjoy the laugh :-)

 

Thinking about the date and coal to Plymouth, could this be traffic for the Admiralty to power his majesty's steaming navy? Repurposing of loco coal wagons to "grey funnel coal wagons"?

 

Just a thought to explain large quantities of coal from not the usual GWR loco sources ending up in Plymouth.

 

Chris

[DCB]

Coal to Plymouth would have been by ship from South Wales surely. Ships used Slow burning Steam Coal from the centre of the South Wales Coal field, not locomotive coal which was harder,  The Forest of Dean the easternmost end of South Wales Geographically of not politically was House coal and the GW owned collieries were between the Steam coal seams and the Forest.  The Forest thrived after WW1 when the South Wales trade collapsed due to the War Ministry taking all the steam coal and South Wales losing its overseas markets which found alternative supplies.
They wouldn't have run Jellico specials from South Wales to Scotland if they could have used local coal.

 

On 03/02/2024 at 23:29, Compound2632 said:

 

There would be much more convenient ways of getting East Midlands coal to Tysley - via the Midland and Bordesley, for example - and also more convenient places to get it from - the South or North Staffordshire coalfields, etc. 

Would not the most obvious sheds be Banbury, Didcot, Reading, or Swindon? 

The GWR were on better terms with the GC than the Midland, the GW had not long before opened the Honeybourne line from Cheltenham  to Stratford on Avon Birmingham etc to bypass the Midland's line , and the GC was trying in the pre WW1 era to boost trade.   I can't see any of the Thames valley  sheds having GC sourced loco coal when so much coal was moving on the main line.   Banbury sound likely  Not sure what size Banbury shed was,  presumably it took goods south and south east,  but a lot of loco workings in later days were Swindon / Oxford to Leicester .  I suppose a 4-2-2 could have been working from Oxford.  Churchward was apparently fond of them and tried to keep them updated  as they were so fast reliable and trouble free but adhesion problems were insurmountable.

[Compound2632]

@7TunnelShunter, @DCB, I'm pretty sure the Laira identification is a red herring but awaiting further thoughts from @Miss Prism. 

[The Stationmaster]

GWR Loco coal for the West of England came by rail from South Wakes - either Pontypool Road or Rogerstone (I don't think there was an Aberdare starter always involved but there might have been at some time).  The empties went back to Rogersttone or Pontypool Road.

 

While domestic coal arrived in Plymouth by sea there does appear to have been railborne domestic coal into the West of England and empties back out.  The n navy's coal would inevitably have arrived by ship in order to reduce handling and it was far simpler to coal a warship from another vessel than any ther way of doing the job.

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 03/02/2024 at 11:14, The Stationmaster said:

there was regular train of loco coal empties from the West of England to Soith wales (usually Rogerstone but at  times if might have run to Pontypool Road.

I don't know about the early years but by 1948 there were two paths for Class H trains from Rogerstone for Banbury calling at Stratford and Leamington for 30 - 60 minutes. I can't find any return path but suspect it could have been the Yarnton to Rogerstone which went via Honeybourne and Cheltenham.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I don't know about the early years but by 1948 there were two paths for Class H trains from Rogerstone for Banbury calling at Stratford and Leamington for 30 - 60 minutes. I can't find any return path but suspect it could have been the Yarnton to Rogerstone which went via Honeybourne and Cheltenham.

In 1948 there was a booked train. from Pontypool Road which terminated at Yarnton so presumably there was lkely to have been a balancing return working.

 

Now back to the West of England  and listed below are the 1911  Loco Coal workings to/from Plymouth - coming from only South Wales.   There are no other Loco Coal workings shown to/from Exeter from the east/north.

 

23.20 MX Exeter - Plymouth Loco Coal. connects out of Rogerstone - Exeter Loco Coal due 16.05

03.40 Plymouth - Exeter Loco Coal Empties, arrive 06,20,  connects into 07.30 Exeter - Rogerstone Coal Empties

[Compound2632]

All very interesting but none of which is advancing knowledge of loco coal workings off the Great Central...

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

All very interesting but none of which is advancing knowledge of loco coal workings off the Great Central...

Except tp show that loco coal for Plymouth etc came from South Wales

[johnofwessex]

But did any Railway Companies - or The Navy have their own coal mines?  

 

Not as far as I am aware.

[Mol_PMB]

14 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

But did any Railway Companies - or The Navy have their own coal mines?  

 

Not as far as I am aware.

Some coal mines had their own railway companies!

[watfordtmc]

A thought.

 

Does the writing - Loco Coal - deceive.

 

Steam Railways were significant users of domestic and industrial coals as well as ‘traction’ coals.  Swindon would have had its forges and furnaces, there were the fire devils to keep water columns and tanks warm, coals for station offices and rooms and so on.

 

You wouldn’t use best Welsh steam coal for these purposes, but coals from other coalfields had good reputations for the domestic/industrial properties of their coals.

 

 Could this be a situation were the Stores Superintendent had concluded a contract with an off-GW system colliery for a supply of coal or coal product, with a discount if loaded to customer’s own wagons, for which the N series wagons would be the most suitable?

 

In short, are the wagons not actually conveying ‘Loco’ coal at all but some other coal or coal product.

 

TMc

10/02/2024

 

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, watfordtmc said:

A thought.

 

It's an interesting thought. Coal for the railway's gas works at Swindon travelled in specially-labelled hopper wagons, with the odd loco coal wagon thrown in for good measure, as photographed at Castle Bromwich on the Midland in June 1925, presumably coming onto the Great Western at Bordesley:

 

 

[Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways image mrcb38.]

 

For myself, I think what militates against this idea is the context of the photo. It's a posed photo of a fully-coaled engine, with the loco coal wagons on a raised line behind, so it is almost certainly taken at a loco depot, the wagons being on the lines up to the coal stage. 

[billbedford]

On the other hand, why would some of these wagons be picked out for that routing instruction? Wouldn't there be enough wagons of the same type to use the next empty one?

[tomparryharry]

On 03/02/2024 at 11:14, The Stationmaster said:

The wagons would be sent where teh Stores Dept at Swindon said r they were to be sent.  there was regular train of loco coal empties from the West of England to Soith wales (usually Rogerstone but at  times if might have run to Pontypool Road.   And similarIy I doubt it got to Laira off the GC viw Banbury in the first place.

 

There would have been some cot logic in supplying Banbury with coal off the GC and don't forget that the Western - well into BR days - used different grades of coal for different jobs hence at large depots there was a 'passenger side' (or section) for coaling and a side (or section) for engines on other work.

 

I've never been sure about teh story that Western engines were designed to bue rn soft Welsh coal because plenty of them in the northern part of the Company's area always seemed to have used coal from local pits.  Don't forget that it cost the railway money to move coal and managing everyday costs was as much a factor in Churchward's and Collett's time as it was in BR days.  But having said that the nature of certain South Walian coal, partiicularly from the seams worked  in the Western Valleys was ideal for loco use because of good calorific value and low ash content.  But I bet that sheds in the Cardiff Valleys Division used the slightly harder coal from that area instead of hauling it a couple of dozen, or more miles.

It depended on the seam, Mike. Certain seams produced for different uses. Certain coal 'bloomed' whereas some needed a flat grate. Welsh coal would sometimes need a expansion gap beneath the brick arch, to ensure secondary air could get into the combustion process. If you over fired , the coal would black out until the air could get through. Putting a pricker in without the blower would produce a blowback of severe proportions.