Conflat container BD colour

[ikcdab]

Hi all, I am building two parkside conflats (kit PC52). The instructions say that the BD containers were maroon with yellow lettering, later changed to bauxite red with white lettering. The transfers supplied are white, so I need to paint the containers bauxite red.

Oddly, this is a colour I have not come across before.  I am familiar with bauxite brown, but not red.

What shade was this?

Can I get away with mixing some maroon into bauxite brown to get to the correct shade?

Ian

[SM42]

Bauxite 

 

I think some call it red, some call it brown. 

 

Andy

[ikcdab]

3 minutes ago, SM42 said:

Bauxite 

 

I think some call it red, some call it brown. 

 

Andy

Not according to the instructions.  They clearly state that the wagon is bauxite brown, but the container is bauxite red.  The odd picture I have found suggests a difference between the two, but I'm unsure if that's weathering or I am looking at maroon containers.

[SM42]

I've not read the instructions. 

 

I painted mine early bauxite before weathering. 

 

I wonder if it's just a mixing of terms when thd instructions were written

 

 

Andy

Edited February 6 by SM42

[Michael Hodgson]

I always assumed the name of the colour reflected its literal meaning as a naturally occuring mineral

 

You could call that red.  You could call it brown.  If you want the right answer for what colour that shade is, ask a woman!

We blokes get that sort of thing wrong ... like forgetting anniversaries.

 

 

[Cwmtwrch]

The original BR VB wagon and covered container colour was described as orange brown; the later colour was described by 12/1958 as bauxite red. Whether this represents an actual change of colour is debatable. Colour photos also suggest that there may have been some slight variations in contemporary colour [different works having different suppliers, perhaps?] and that 'bauxite red' may have become more orange in the 1960s [or perhaps those are just variations in colour film rendition]. Given that most paints, and colour films, of that era were quite unstable over time, and bauxite in particular degraded fairly rapidly, it probably not worth worrying too much about exact shades, especially bearing weathering in mind.

 

Initially general use covered containers painted by BR were orange brown with unboxed white lettering. This changed to maroon [officially crimson, but actually crimson lake, i.e. maroon] with unboxed yellow lettering circa 1955/6. In the early 1960s it changed back to bauxite, but with boxed white lettering and the black and white "flying crate" logo. As usual, repainting the complete stock would take several years.

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Hi all, I am building two parkside conflats (kit PC52). The instructions say that the BD containers were maroon with yellow lettering, later changed to bauxite red with white lettering. The transfers supplied are white, so I need to paint the containers bauxite red.

Oddly, this is a colour I have not come across before.  I am familiar with bauxite brown, but not red.

What shade was this?

Can I get away with mixing some maroon into bauxite brown to get to the correct shade?

Ian

 

It's the same colour as vacuum-fitted wagons - call it what you will!

 

CJI.

[ikcdab]

20 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

It's the same colour as vacuum-fitted wagons - call it what you will!

 

CJI.

Hi John, I guess your set BL39 is the one for BD containers in this kit PC52 (4mm).  Does your set have the arrow symbol?  

Ian

[cctransuk]

41 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

Hi John, I guess your set BL39 is the one for BD containers in this kit PC52 (4mm).  Does your set have the arrow symbol?  

Ian

 

It is indeed - but it has straw yellow lettering for crimson / maroon containers; therefore no 'flying crate' logos.

 

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

[The Johnster]

The 'red bauxite' description almost certainly means 'vacuum braked/piped wagon colour bauxite', and Bachmann, who are usually pretty reliable when it comes to liveries, have produced BD containers in this colour as well as 1956 maroon.  The issue also affects some XP vans including the 4-vent MEAT available as a plastic kit from Dapol Kitmaster and as an RTR from Hornby.  The old Airfix intructions for this kit specified painting it in 1956 maroon, and the transfers with the kit were straw yellow colour, but I have not built one of these since god was in short trousers.  The Hornby is in Bauxite with white lettering.

 

BR bauxite varied quite a bit in it's actual shade and the amount of red in the mix, especially in the pre-1956 era, when paint supplies were to the wagon workshops were often inconsistent, and old LMS/LNER stocks were used up.  There were differences between pre- and post-nationalisation official versions of the colour, the LMS/LNER being more red in hue.  It faded differently on wooden and steel surfaces as well.

Edited February 6 by The Johnster

[adb968008]

Ive a container plate off a conflat container that was once maroon, which I recovered from a scrap yard.

when I took a paint chip off it, the unexposed side of the paint (touching the metal) I found the maroon was the exact same shade as Hornby used on its Duchess.

 

This also matched a maroon tender plate off a Duchess my friend has, which surprised us both at the time, but was enough to convince us Hornby got its Duchess right.

 

Unrestored railwayana is a good source for paint matching, especially if using the unexposed side of the chip, as its not subject to weathering and fading.

Edited February 6 by adb968008

[Wickham Green too]

Might not the unexposed side, touching the metal be a priming or under-coat p'raps ?

[adb968008]

10 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Might not the unexposed side, touching the metal be a priming or under-coat p'raps ?

Might paint be in layers, p’raps ?

 

its easy to see through thick layers, especially when painters of old slapped it on thick, you can split them with a jewelers screwdriver sometimes.. ive a Bury unit plate like that, I can get through flat  undercoat maroon , Green, Blue, then a few different yellows.

 

Coming back to the plate in my posession, its top coat is orange so ive no idea its final purpose, but I can see its history.

Edited February 7 by adb968008

[ikcdab]

19 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

It is indeed - but it has straw yellow lettering for crimson / maroon containers; therefore no 'flying crate' logos.

 

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

So white lettering always needs the "flying crates"? The transfers in the kit are white without crates.  So I either need to go elsewhere to get some flying crates transfers or revert to maroon and yellow lettering?

[cctransuk]

3 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

So white lettering always needs the "flying crates"? The transfers in the kit are white without crates.  So I either need to go elsewhere to get some flying crates transfers or revert to maroon and yellow lettering?

 

Not having seen the kit transfers, it's difficult to comment.

 

Is the lettering 'boxed' - if so, it is appropriately for the 'flying crate' livery on a bauxite container; most / all such containers would have had the 'crate'.

 

If it's not 'boxed', it should be straw yellow for a crimson / maroon container.

 

IF there was a period of bauxite livery prior to crimson - which I don't recall having heard of before - then the kit transfers MIGHT be appropriate.

 

White lettering on a crimson / maroon container is incorrect.

 

CJI.

[bécasse]

42 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

White lettering on a crimson / maroon container is incorrect.

I have seen a reasonable effect of cream lettering created by judicious use of a yellow highlighter. I haven't done it myself, though, so I am unaware of what potential pitfalls it might involve, or how long lasting it might be

[Wickham Green too]

My attempt with a standard fluorescent yellow highlighter looked rather like I'd gone over the white with a standard fluorescent yellow highlighter ☹️ .......... other shades of  yellow highlighter may be available ! 

[Cwmtwrch]

3 hours ago, cctransuk said:

IF there was a period of bauxite livery prior to crimson - which I don't recall having heard of before - then the kit transfers MIGHT be appropriate.

There was, used until the mid-1950s as I commented before, so visible until the later 1950s. See https://www.flickr.com/photos/36844288@N00/8078166153/in/photostream/; the source details are at the bottom of the page. For the container liveries click the right arrow and look in the bottom RH corner of the left hand page. Brian Haresnape provides the same info on page 34 of "Railway Liveries: BR Steam 1948-1968", as revised by Colin Boocock. The same book , page 48, gives the change to maroon "as around the same time" in the chapter about the 1956 revisions.

[Cwmtwrch]

16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The issue also affects some XP vans including the 4-vent MEAT available as a plastic kit from Dapol Kitmaster and as an RTR from Hornby.  The old Airfix intructions for this kit specified painting it in 1956 maroon, and the transfers with the kit were straw yellow colour, but I have not built one of these since god was in short trousers.  The Hornby is in Bauxite with white lettering.

So far as I know, the BR fresh meat van, although goods rated, was painted originally in unlined coach livery, as were others of its type. When it was built in 1952 this would have been crimson rather than maroon, with yellow lettering. The increasing use of containers made them redundant as meat vans, so they were reclassified as ordinary Vanfits at some point in the late 1950s/early 1960s [sorry, I can't be more specific than that], after which they were painted bauxite. Whether any got an intermediate repaint into maroon after March 1956 I don't know.

Edited February 7 by Cwmtwrch

[The Johnster]

Hmm. That means that, for my 1948-58 timeframe I should repaint my Hornby 4-venter in crimson with straw transfers.  

[hmrspaul]

The 1959 official repainting instructions do not differentiate covered containers - except for insulated which were white with black lettering. The others were to be maroon with yellow lining paint for lettering. {Note opens and bottom door bulk material containers are different}

 

By 1963 this altered to use of freight stock red (which largely comprised of bauxite or an artificial alternative) BR paint instructions never use bauxite* although other booklets for guidance of staff do use the term. These were to have white lettering. By now the insulated containers were ice blue with black lettering. 

 

What may make the difference in appearance compared to ordinary freight stock is that containers were to be finished with a varnish. 

 

By the way, photos of fitted wagons in the early years of BR are very orange. Freight stock red does seem to have become progressively browner as the years went by.

 

* The 1959 mixing instructions for Freight stock red 70lbs red oxide (bauxite residue, larne quality) in oil + 8lb of protective white paint paste + 16 - 20lb of boilied linseed oil + 4 - 8 lb of liquid drier and 6 - 8 lb of white spirit.  The general wagons and these containers had an undercoat of FSR primer, the mixing instructions are the same with the addition 5lb of black in oil. 

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bmfmcontainer

 

Paul

[cctransuk]

3 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

So far as I know, the BR fresh meat van, although goods rated, was painted originally in unlined coach livery, as were others of its type. When it was built in 1952 this would have been crimson rather than maroon, with yellow lettering. The increasing use of containers made them redundant as meat vans, so they were reclassified as ordinary Vanfits at some point in the late 1950s/early 1960s [sorry, I can't be more specific than that], after which they were painted bauxite. Whether any got an intermediate repaint into maroon after March 1956 I don't know.

 

Quite - hence why Airfix used lurid red plastic for the meat wagon, presumably.

 

CJI.

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Hmm. That means that, for my 1948-58 timeframe I should repaint my Hornby 4-venter in crimson with straw transfers.  

 

Indeed!

 

3 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

There was, used until the mid-1950s as I commented before, so visible until the later 1950s. See https://www.flickr.com/photos/36844288@N00/8078166153/in/photostream/; the source details are at the bottom of the page. For the container liveries click the right arrow and look in the bottom RH corner of the left hand page. Brian Haresnape provides the same info on page 34 of "Railway Liveries: BR Steam 1948-1968", as revised by Colin Boocock. The same book , page 48, gives the change to maroon "as around the same time" in the chapter about the 1956 revisions.

 

I'm not convinced that the original orange-brown livery for covered containers lasted very long at all.

 

I was around at the time, and all my memories of covered containers, on road or rail, are of crimson or maroon with straw yellow lettering, until the 'flying crate' on orange-brown came in.

 

Significantly, Hornby Dublo's rendition of a BR covered container was crimson / maroon - as was the Merit version.

 

CJI.

Edited February 7 by cctransuk

[The Johnster]

I'll need to be painting some of my BD containers in crimson as well, then (order for straw transfers coming your way soon, Chris).  I have three from Bachmann in maroon, which Paul says did not appear until 1959, so too late for Cwmdimbath's 1958 cut-off.  Crimson they shall be, then!  I've on 'Furniture' in bauxite and another in faded GW door-to-door livery, which I think can stay as they are.

[Michael Hodgson]

7 hours ago, ikcdab said:

So white lettering always needs the "flying crates"? The transfers in the kit are white without crates.  So I either need to go elsewhere to get some flying crates transfers or revert to maroon and yellow lettering?

"Flying crates" is appropriate to containers that are not securely chained to the conflat.