Freight Train Formations WCML early 80's

[bazjones1711]

Slightly later than your time frame , but here's the TOPS pool for BAA wagons  , I have the pools for West Coast BAA and BBA if your interested 

[AMac]

1 hour ago, Taigatrommel said:

 

I've been having a look at flickr as I enjoy having something to research!
 

 

I hear you - I got side tracked myself last night! Thanks for the photos, I'll be looking at a rake of BBA's (or maybe BAA's)

[AMac]

3 hours ago, bazjones1711 said:

Slightly later than your time frame , but here's the TOPS pool for BAA wagons  , I have the pools for West Coast BAA and BBA if your interested 

Hi, that would be great to have the pools for WC BAA's and BBA's

[C126]

On 07/02/2024 at 14:08, Gilbert said:

A bit late but it may help.

A lot of content still feels familar from my occasional day at Warrington in early 1980s..

Chris

 

 

Just wanted to say thanks for posting that clip.  Good to be reminded how evocative the sound of a freight train of many different wagon types was when ambling through a station.

[eastwestdivide]

A couple from Warrington 1983:

1. Possibly Mossend-Severn Tunnel Junction Speedlink, with 2x electrics, then identifiable wagon types: SPA, OCA, OBA, possibly sheeted PR82xx "salt" hoppers, possibly a UKF fertilizer van, loads of VDA or similar AB vans, then something that might be a bogie Cargowaggon at the far end where the canopy blocks the train:

 

2. Permissive block of two trains with 25s and a few AB vans including a Cargowaggon at the front:

 

3. Plenty of chemical and similar freight around, including this block train of "Tip-Air" ICI tanks. I think they had a 40 at the front:

 

4. It wasn't all air-braked by any means. Mixed VB freight with a sleeper coach exiting the yard, lots of Tube or Pipe wagons I think, and hoppers and vans further on:

 

5. Bulk sand trains for the nearby glassworks using these VB hoppers:

 

I'll try and locate some more (and my notes) when I get some time.

 

[AMac]

HI eastwestdivide,

many thanks for the photos - great to have some examples.  I'm still a bit (maybe a lot!) ignorant of what Speedlink is other than general/all round freight by BR. Looks to me like a variety with the majority airbraked so they can run at 75 mph - is that about right?   I originally thought it was just VAAs / VBA's / VDA's plus VEAs and the OBA/OCA's but I can see there is quite a variety. 

 

For 1981/82, would VDA's be more prevalent due to the palletisation making VAA's/VBA's not matching pallet dimensions (I'm sure I read that somewhere)? And would you get both the bauxite/brown wagons and the railfreight red/grey? I'll check some of the photo sites like Paul Bartlett's.

 

Good to see some vacuum braked trains - I bought some wagons that I thought looked about right and have got a couple of vanwides (VVV and VEV i think) plus a 12T pipe wagon. I may end up with a small vacuum braked rake.

[C126]

30 minutes ago, AMac said:

ignorant of what Speedlink is ...

 

How long do you have?  🙂  If you can wait till Sunday, I will photograph some of my book-shelves for you for refs.  Dr Paul Shannon's oeuvre is a good place to start.  There are many inspiring compilations of photographs out there...

 

 

[eastwestdivide]

8 hours ago, AMac said:

I'm still a bit (maybe a lot!) ignorant of what Speedlink

Very broadly, air braked mixed freight running in bigger trains trunked between main yards/destinations plus smaller air braked feeder services into the trunk hauls. E&OE!

[eastwestdivide]

One more photo from Warrington for now, April 1983, a nice short mixed air braked train: small tank (possibly chemicals? not sure), PCA cement wagon, VIX-type BR ferry van, SPA, possible ferry "stake" wagon, air-braked VDA/VCA/VAA-type van at the back. And at the front, a class 40 with its number scrawled on the nose!

 

[Rivercider]

8 hours ago, AMac said:

HI eastwestdivide,

many thanks for the photos - great to have some examples.  I'm still a bit (maybe a lot!) ignorant of what Speedlink is other than general/all round freight by BR. Looks to me like a variety with the majority airbraked so they can run at 75 mph - is that about right?   I originally thought it was just VAAs / VBA's / VDA's plus VEAs and the OBA/OCA's but I can see there is quite a variety. 

 

For 1981/82, would VDA's be more prevalent due to the palletisation making VAA's/VBA's not matching pallet dimensions (I'm sure I read that somewhere)? And would you get both the bauxite/brown wagons and the railfreight red/grey? I'll check some of the photo sites like Paul Bartlett's.

 

Good to see some vacuum braked trains - I bought some wagons that I thought looked about right and have got a couple of vanwides (VVV and VEV i think) plus a 12T pipe wagon. I may end up with a small vacuum braked rake.

Sorry I am a bit late to this thread.

As already mentioned most trains were either fully vac braked, or air braked by this time, a mixed freight with a brake van was getting rare.

The traditional vacuum braked wagon load network lasted until the early 1980s, being gradually succeeded by the introduction of the Speedlink network, (most of which were timed at 60 mph running class 6). I think the vacuum braked network was finally closed in April 1983, the last traffics being things like cement in presflos, clay in clayfits to Scotland, scrap in MCVS, some government stores/explosives in VEV vanwides and SOV pipe wagons, and domestic coal traffic in MCV/MXV/HTVs). The vac braked clay to Scotland went over to an interesting selection of air braked types like the PBA clay tigers, PNAs etc.

 

I made a few trips to the North West in the early 1980s, mostly to Warrington, but here is a train passing Lancaster in 1984. 

No. 85026 passes Lancaster northbound (?) with a train of tube wagons, 10/7/84.

 

 

 

I took more at Warrington, here is one from my Flickr collection, 86004 heads north through Warrington Bank Quay with a short vacuum braked service, a highfit, then probably VEV or VMV vanwides, and perhaps a couple of vac braked coil carriers at the rear? 23/3/82.

 

 

cheers

 

 

[AMac]

23 hours ago, C126 said:

 

How long do you have?  🙂  If you can wait till Sunday, I will photograph some of my book-shelves for you for refs.  Dr Paul Shannon's oeuvre is a good place to start.  There are many inspiring compilations of photographs out there...

 

 

Hi C126. I have a quite a bit of time as I need to put the brakes on spending for a wee while! I can easily wait 'til Sunday.😃

[AMac]

And thanks for the offer!

[AMac]

15 hours ago, Rivercider said:

Sorry I am a bit late to this thread.

As already mentioned most trains were either fully vac braked, or air braked by this time, a mixed freight with a brake van was getting rare.

The traditional vacuum braked wagon load network lasted until the early 1980s, being gradually succeeded by the introduction of the Speedlink network, (most of which were timed at 60 mph running class 6). I think the vacuum braked network was finally closed in April 1983, the last traffics being things like cement in presflos, clay in clayfits to Scotland, scrap in MCVS, some government stores/explosives in VEV vanwides and SOV pipe wagons, and domestic coal traffic in MCV/MXV/HTVs). The vac braked clay to Scotland went over to an interesting selection of air braked types like the PBA clay tigers, PNAs etc.

 

Hi Rivercider,  thanks for the info - all really helpful.  BTW, look through some of your photos on Flickr from time to time as well as your comments on RMWeb but didn't realise it was the same person until a couple of days ago!  Many thanks again.

[AMac]

15 hours ago, Rivercider said:

I made a few trips to the North West in the early 1980s, mostly to Warrington, but here is a train passing Lancaster in 1984. 

No. 85026 passes Lancaster northbound (?) with a train of tube wagons, 10/7/84.

Definitely looks northbound to me. I have never been to Lancaster but I've been trawling through online photos of the station as well as google earth/google maps street view.

[AMac]

Thanks for the follow up eastwestdivide - nice photos and info.

[eastwestdivide]

Found some freight train notes from Warrington Fri 25 Feb 1983.

Some of the more interesting workings that might also have touched Lancaster

 

1. at 1401-56 down steel with 47009 swapping to 85020: 12 BBAs, 7 BAAs, 1 BAB 900002, 1 BKB 900015

2. various 47s on HAAs with a CAR brakevan. doing a reversing move N-S-E-W (or vice versa), i.e. from the WCML north, reversing past the yard complex, then continue under the station towards the power station at Fiddlers Ferry. Think these came from the Wigan area, so not via Lancaster, but wasn't there also coal from the Cumbrian coast line??

3. at 1401 up into the yard, 40155 with mixed VB freight, including HTV 340800, covhops CHV 970817, CHP 866846 and 886995, VMV vanwides 782960, 783458, steel BCV 924581, + more stuff and a brake van on the back CAP 951017

4. at 1425-34 up 25305 with mixed tanks: 10 Shell TTB/TTA 67xxx, 4 ICI caustic soda liquor TTA BRT57611/57599/57698/57596, then 8 unbraked engineers' Sturgeon YBOs and a brake van coded ZTP 951756

5. at 1450 up 47282 with Manchester waste containers on PFA wagons GMC925xx (where was the waste dumped?)

6. at 1513 down from the yards: the freight with the sleeper coach that I posted a photo of up the thread: 40155 with departmental-numbered sleeper KDB975888, some ZCV Plaice ballast wagons (Plate wagon rebuilds) including DB987183/204, a Danzas ferry van, then some BP tanks incl TTF BPO64675/67564, then a load of HTVs

7. at 1554-1608 up, 85038 with mixed AB freight including BP Chemicals caustic soda TTB PR58547, 58501 58540 58586, OAA 100092, RRA runner wagon 400155, ZRA (van?) ADC200519, VAB van 200091, RBX ex-ferry van 787176, VDA van 210375, OAA 100058, 100057, VEA vanwide 230124

 

Generally, the BR air-braked stuff was in a mix of the older brown/maroonish livery and the newer red or red/grey Railfreight livery

 

More later if I get some time (maybe not today!)

Edited March 23 by eastwestdivide
Typos

[Rivercider]

3 hours ago, AMac said:

Hi Rivercider,  thanks for the info - all really helpful.  BTW, look through some of your photos on Flickr from time to time as well as your comments on RMWeb but didn't realise it was the same person until a couple of days ago!  Many thanks again.

You're welcome. I have had a lifelong interest in freight trains, (as a child I could hear the trucks shunted near our house),

so always look out for freight train layouts at exhibitions. I have been lucky to have had books about the WR published, the most recent was  Freight Trains of the Western Region  in the 1980s, which does not help you much for Lancaster!

 

I have the list of Speedlink trains dated 17th May 1982, there are two of the Trunk Train Routes that apply to the north end of the WCML

Route 4. South Wales - Mossend  where the relevant services are:-

6V93 09.05 MSX Mossend - STJ

6V93 05.44 SO Mossend - STJ

6V92 15.50 SX Mossend - STJ

6S97 02.10 MX STJ - Mossend

6S78 19.05 SX STJ - Mossend

 

Route 5. Mossend - Dover, some trains run ECML, but I think these ran part way WCML.

4M77 15.38 SX Bathgate - Bescot

6M53 17.16 SX Bathgate - Luton (called Warrington Arpley)

4S64 22.00 SX Bescot - Bathgate

6O56 15.32 SX Dundee - Dover (via Carlisle, SO terminate Bescot)

4S87 19.43 SX Luton - Bathgate (via Warrington)

4M38 20.55 SX Mossend - Willesden

4S48 21.56 SX Willesden - Mossend

6O38 17.14 SX Workington - Dover

 

Although I did not visit the NW that often as a TOPS clerk on BR I did enquiries on other parts of BR out of interest,

and recall that slow freight traffic tended to be diverted away from the WCML over Shap, with some via the Settle and Carlisle.

As the traditional vacuum braked wagon load network contracted up to April 1983 there were fewer and fewer unfitted wagons in revenue service, I am pretty sure that at the end there was a daily class 9 partly vac fitted service each way along the Cumbrian coast to sweep up the odd slow or unfitted vehicles passing between Warrington - Workington - Carlisle (and reverse).

 

cheers

[nigb55009]

The class 47s with HAAs & CAR could have been to/from the Cumbrian Coast. They consisted of 30 wagons + CAR, as did the north west

area MGRs, based around Bickershaw, Parkside, Bold and Sutton Manor. So not easy to to tell one from the other.

The GMC waste trains unloaded at Appley Bridge on the line between Wigan and Southport. The empties heading south (up) through

Warrington BQ would be returning to Northenden.

The photo of the two class 25 hauled freights were probably trip workings. The leading one looks like the Prescot tripper that served the

BICC cable works. The rear train looks like the Gathurst trip, also on the Southport line, this served the ICI expolsive works as well as other

traffic from the Springs Branch area. Not sure of the trip numbers, they changed some during the eighties.

The sand hoppers would have been either from Crofields or Ravenhead. The Ravenhead train (8F21) also went to Springs Branch with MTV

open wagons with sand for the Co-op Glassworks at Platt Bridge. The return empties to Oakamoor ran as 7K02.

[Rivercider]

18 minutes ago, nigb55009 said:

The class 47s with HAAs & CAR could have been to/from the Cumbrian Coast. They consisted of 30 wagons + CAR, as did the north west

area MGRs, based around Bickershaw, Parkside, Bold and Sutton Manor. So not easy to to tell one from the other.

The GMC waste trains unloaded at Appley Bridge on the line between Wigan and Southport. The empties heading south (up) through

Warrington BQ would be returning to Northenden.

The photo of the two class 25 hauled freights were probably trip workings. The leading one looks like the Prescot tripper that served the

BICC cable works. The rear train looks like the Gathurst trip, also on the Southport line, this served the ICI expolsive works as well as other

traffic from the Springs Branch area. Not sure of the trip numbers, they changed some during the eighties.

The sand hoppers would have been either from Crofields or Ravenhead. The Ravenhead train (8F21) also went to Springs Branch with MTV

open wagons with sand for the Co-op Glassworks at Platt Bridge. The return empties to Oakamoor ran as 7K02.

The May 1982 Speedlink document I have also lists the trip working and feeder services in connection with the trunk trains.

 

9T90 09.00 MSX Warr Arp - Gathurst via Southport.

6T90 08.15 MO Springs Branch - Gathurst (barrier wagons)

6T90 10.25 MO Gathurst - Warr Arp.

6T90 12.00 MO Warr Arp - Gathurst 

6T90 13.35 MO Gathurst - Warr Arp

9T90 13.45 SX Gathurst - Warr Arp

 

Not sure which trip served Prescot, I don't know the names/locations well enough from the list,

 

Through Lancaster the following trip/feeder services are mentioned.

7P28 06.25 MSX Warr WOJ - Workington

8P36 06.42 MSX Warr WOJ - Workington

7P60 05.30 SO Warr WOJ - Workington

7P36 08.10 MO Warr WOJ - Workington

I am guessing one of the above pair 7P28/8P36 runs air, and one vac (possibly 8P36 at 35mph?)

I do not see any corresponding southbound services from Workington, one loco might work 6O38 17.44 Workington - Dover

and the other 9T31 18.50 Workington - Carlisle?

 

cheers

 

[nigb55009]

As I said earlier, the trip numbers changed later in the decade. This was partly due to a reduction in local freight traffic. T90 was a 

Springs Branch duty, along with T85, which served Co-op Glassworks, amongst others. The two were amalgamated into one, T72, I

think aroond 1985. A lot of the trip numbers remained unchanged for many years, but eventually the whole  Warrington area was

reorganised. I have an old trip notice from  1975 for the old Liverpool Division. It covers trip workings for Edge Hill HS, Garston HS, 

NorthwichHS, Warrington HS and Springs Branch DD. It also covers shunt locos for station and carriage siding pilots. 

If I can find any further info I will post it here. Somewhere I have some Section CG WTTs, which cover th WCML from Crewe to Carlisle.

They are the older type covering Mandatory and Conditional services.

[Rivercider]

15 minutes ago, nigb55009 said:

As I said earlier, the trip numbers changed later in the decade. This was partly due to a reduction in local freight traffic. T90 was a 

Springs Branch duty, along with T85, which served Co-op Glassworks, amongst others. The two were amalgamated into one, T72, I

think aroond 1985. A lot of the trip numbers remained unchanged for many years, but eventually the whole  Warrington area was

reorganised. I have an old trip notice from  1975 for the old Liverpool Division. It covers trip workings for Edge Hill HS, Garston HS, 

NorthwichHS, Warrington HS and Springs Branch DD. It also covers shunt locos for station and carriage siding pilots. 

If I can find any further info I will post it here. Somewhere I have some Section CG WTTs, which cover th WCML from Crewe to Carlisle.

They are the older type covering Mandatory and Conditional services.

It was always a bit confusing to a Southerner like me, not used to that much freight!

I see in 1982 9T85 06.55 SX Warr Arp to Wigan, but cannot see a return balance.

 

cheers

[nigb55009]

9T85 returned with traffic for Central Wagon, near Springs Branch, usually empty wagons for loading  with scrap or wagons for repair

or even scrapping. There was also fuel tanks for the Diesel Depot, empty wagons for Lowton Metals, again for loading with scrap. As

well as any other wagons such as empty MGRs that may have been detached from Fiddlers Ferry trains that had been repaired at Arpley

Yard. There was also yhe occaissional traffic for Wigan Down Goods Yard, also known as Chapel Lane. T85 would have left Arpley about

half past eight. This trip would als serve Bickershaw, as required, with MGR wagons to and from repair.

[C126]

Just a quick note to add as promised a few literary refs to the answer 'What was Speedlink?', in publication date order from top-left, thus:

 

 

I would recommend Dr Shannon's 2014 Speedlink as the best history, containing several diagrammatic maps of each area, a table of national trunk trains between the yards of January 1985, and many photographs.  The 3.5 pages of "sample Speedlink consists" date from 1987-1991 though, and the map of the area for Lancaster shows all freight flows north of Carnforth routed via the Cumbrian coast line, and Warrington Yard the area's freight focus.

 

Rail freight since 1968 : wagonload  (2006) and Rail freight - today  (1989) contain further textual descriptions of the history of wagon-load and Speedlink, as does Geoffrey Freeman Allen's British railfreight : today and tomorrow (1984), all with excellent photographs.  The other two contain many photographs of such goods trains which might be if use.

 

As always, unless you wish Rule 1 to play a great role in your layout operation, I would suggest getting your hands on a Working Time Table of the area/time of interest.  Not sure what its area code would be ('C'?), but others here will be able to advise.

 

Hope all this helps.  Let me know if you want a ref. checking or more detail, but I can not promise how quickly I can reply.  With all good wishes.

 

 

[AMac]

Many thanks again C126. I'll start looking at sourcing a couple or so of those books. 

 

Thanks for the tip on the working timetables - I'd stumbled on the  "Transport Past Times" site a few months ago ( https://transportpasttimes.co.uk/ ) but have only looked at what they have every now and then. I'll keep a closer eye on this site.  I'll also start looking for other sites for these documents.

 

Edited February 21 by AMac

[TravisM]

On 09/02/2024 at 09:11, AMac said:

Yes, the Nuclear flask traffic sounds interesting. I dismissed that purely on the basis of the Bachmann wagons (and now the accuscales ones) were just a bit late for me. However after looking at the Train formations book plus your comment.

 

 

I wouldn't dismiss the Bachmann FNA's, especially the early batches as they were built in the early to mid 70's.  The Accurascale one's are far too late for your time frame.  I've attached a link to Martyn Read @Glorious NSE response about FNA's

 

Depends on which batch/numbers they are doing:

 

550000-550005 - 1970

550009-550014 - 1976/7

550015-550016 - 1978

550017-550018 - 1982

550019-550020 - 1984/6

550021-550026 - 1986

550027-550060 - 1988/9

Edited February 21 by TravisM
Additional info