GraFar OO 2 pole motor replacement

[Hacksworth_Sidings]

Good afternoon, RMWeb,

 

Recently I bought two Graham Farish, OO, black fives from another user, one has the original, chunky, 2 pole motor, which I plan to try and get running, the other is motorless, I understand many converted theirs to run on things like Triang X.04s, and that’s what I seek for the motorless loco…

 

 

I plan to use a Triang/Hornby X.03 (the one with the large nylon worm gear), mounting it isn’t an issue, more so coupling it to the drivetrain, any suggestions as to what I should use? Universals? Ball sockets? Brass tube? I don’t have the full clutch assembly for the motorless 5MT, only the dish on the first reduction gear, no arms to fit to the motor shaft, so refitting the clutch isn’t an option.

[Hacksworth_Sidings]

Finally got access to the layout and my spare motors… Here’s the setup I have planned:

 

 

Using a Triang Princess tender chassis, as the original GraFar tender chassis was broken and missing parts. Any suggestions for joining the motor shafts? I’ve seen some drives use a flexible tube to transmit power so I’m considering one of those…

[Captain Slough]

the model boating fraternity used to have various products available to connect motors with angled propeller shafts, just a possibility

[cctransuk]

22 minutes ago, Hacksworth_Sidings said:

Finally got access to the layout and my spare motors… Here’s the setup I have planned:

 

 

Using a Triang Princess tender chassis, as the original GraFar tender chassis was broken and missing parts. Any suggestions for joining the motor shafts? I’ve seen some drives use a flexible tube to transmit power so I’m considering one of those…

 

Biro ink tube?

 

CJI.

[Hacksworth_Sidings]

34 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Biro ink tube?

 

CJI.

If I can get that to fit on both the motor shaft and the gearbox shaft, that might be doable.

 

Adapt, improvise, overcome.

[kevinlms]

I suppose you could build yourself a new 2-pole motor!

 

https://www.instructables.com/2-Pole-DC-Motor-Kit/

[GeraldH]

Silicone tubing with a ball bearing in it can apparently work...

 

http://www.clag.org.uk/silicone-tube.html

[railroadbill]

Interesting about the silicon tubing with ball bearing.

 

 

I've used these from Branchlines but they might be a bit small/short for your purposes here.

 

 

A small u/j at the end of each shaft. Thin shaft doesn't show up too much going through cab....

 

I was given one of those Farish tender drives many years ago, it did in a transistorised controller trying to run it!  A "proper" motor was obviously a better idea, but early Farish is  intriguing though.

[stewartingram]

I once had a Farish Black 5 in for repair at my local model shop when I did their repairs. We usually got Triang/Hornby/HD, it made a change!. I ended up putting an X04 un the tender, driving the loco wheels, but can't remember the details now. Customer was well pleased though.

[GeraldH]

Another possibility from AliExpress (who I've never used), although it might be a bit too unstable for a loco-tender connection?

 

6pcs 1:87 Ho Scale Coupler Connector Railway Train Accessories Motor Drive Rod Train Model Connecting Rod

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004310881703.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.4a639e3bw9bOIf&algo_pvid=2281d404-2cbf-42d5-b2a2-f640f193d196&algo_exp_id=2281d404-2cbf-42d5-b2a2-f640f193d196-0&pdp_npi=4%40dis!GBP!8.41!4.97!!!10.28!6.07!%402103835c17081735540184983e9a1d!12000028709883794!sea!UK!0!AB&curPageLogUid=VpzQP5NXIpSZ&utparam-url=scene%3Asearch|query_from%3A

[Hacksworth_Sidings]

1 hour ago, GeraldH said:

although it might be a bit too unstable for a loco-tender connection?

The driveshaft doesn’t need to go from loco to tender, thankfully I still have the original metal shaft, just a short one between the motor and the first reduction gear as shown above.

Edited February 17 by Hacksworth_Sidings

[Il Grifone]

On 17/02/2024 at 12:45, GeraldH said:

Another possibility from AliExpress (who I've never used), although it might be a bit too unstable for a loco-tender connection?

 

6pcs 1:87 Ho Scale Coupler Connector Railway Train Accessories Motor Drive Rod Train Model Connecting Rod

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004310881703.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.4a639e3bw9bOIf&algo_pvid=2281d404-2cbf-42d5-b2a2-f640f193d196&algo_exp_id=2281d404-2cbf-42d5-b2a2-f640f193d196-0&pdp_npi=4%40dis!GBP!8.41!4.97!!!10.28!6.07!%402103835c17081735540184983e9a1d!12000028709883794!sea!UK!0!AB&curPageLogUid=VpzQP5NXIpSZ&utparam-url=scene%3Asearch|query_from%3A

 

Beware you are warned not to eat them!  🤔

 

Also watch out for customs charges. Or rather the exorbitant charge for collecting these! There used to be allowance for small orders, but this has been abolished.

 

I must do my two GF locomotives (Black 5 and King), but there are other calls on my time....

 

I'm trying to sort out my Meccano collection. I didn't realise I had quite so much!

 

 

Edited February 18 by Il Grifone

[Hacksworth_Sidings]

4 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

I must do my two GF locomotives (Black 5 and King), but there are other calls on my time....

 

That reminds me of another question I have, relating to GraFar’s time producing OO… How many locos did they actually produce? I’ve counted seven so far:

LMS 5MT, GWR King, SR Merchant Navy, GWR 8100, GWR 9400, NYC (Dreyfus?) Hudson, and the SR Q class(?) from the 3 rail “Formo” train set, which I can’t seem to find much info on, besides YouTube user “Kleedham’s” video on it…

 

I recall hearing something about a GF OO 8F? Unsure where, but confirmation on that would be interesting, as Dublo produced the 8F, so was there a need for two OO, RTR 8Fs on the market?

 

Also, if you ever need/want to sell off the King, let us know!

Edited February 18 by Hacksworth_Sidings

[kevinlms]

8 hours ago, Hacksworth_Sidings said:

 

That reminds me of another question I have, relating to GraFar’s time producing OO… How many locos did they actually produce? I’ve counted seven so far:

LMS 5MT, GWR King, SR Merchant Navy, GWR 8100, GWR 9400, NYC (Dreyfus?) Hudson, and the SR Q class(?) from the 3 rail “Formo” train set, which I can’t seem to find much info on, besides YouTube user “Kleedham’s” video on it…

 

I recall hearing something about a GF OO 8F? Unsure where, but confirmation on that would be interesting, as Dublo produced the 8F, so was there a need for two OO, RTR 8Fs on the market?

 

Also, if you ever need/want to sell off the King, let us know!

I think the only OO 8F by Graham Farish, was a picture on a box or catalogue. Bit hard to search for anything, because all that comes up are N Gauge versions!

[Captain Slough]

Model Railway Collector magazine issue no2 in about 1993 had a full article on Grafar 00 including what they believed was the full range of locos

 

I doubt anyones ever documented the full range of coaches and coach kits, and wagons, they produced as some of those came out as late as the 1980s

[1E BoY]

3 hours ago, Captain Slough said:

Model Railway Collector magazine issue no2 in about 1993 had a full article on Grafar 00 including what they believed was the full range of locos

 

I doubt anyones ever documented the full range of coaches and coach kits, and wagons, they produced as some of those came out as late as the 1980s

 

Ramsay's Model Railway Catalogues compiled by Pat Hammond are a good starting point. They have a comprehensive listing of the OO Graham Farish ready to run models up until the end of production in 1981. 

Edited February 19 by 1E BoY

[kevinlms]

Nothing mentioned here.

 

https://www.brightontoymuseum.co.uk/index/Category:Graham_Farish_00_gauge

[DCB]

I have just found this thread.   What is the "Clutch"  I have never had a complete running Grafar 2 pole powered loco?   A dyna drive type clutch would be brilliant!

Personally i would use the Airfix 14XX motor.  Not the Prairie, not the MW005 the 14XX which has a ball and socket joint and driveshaft as standard, Torquey  and otherwise pretty useless as its too fat to fit between 00 driving wheels.
The other alternative and I suspect the favourite in years gone by is the X04 type turntable motor (Notbthe XT 60 worm drive, which I believe came with a short armature shaft and a small spur gear, the same gear as the Scalextric  X04 clone motor used except the Scalextric might have been wound differently and the Power sledge commutator is at 90 degrees to the Loco X04 as the brushes are top and bottom not left and right.   Oddly enough the  5 pole K's and MW 00X whatever and most likely Kitmaster armatures run equally happily with either brush configuration,  the K's being top and bottom brushes and I have both X04 and Hornby Dublo 1/2" motors with K's armatures. 
I have Triang powered Farish 94XX and 81XX with  5 pole armatures, Triang Chassis  (Jinty / Hall) with H/D and or Romford wheels as my main shunting and banking locos for the past 40 years. and another 94 sitting on my workbench  having new footsteps fabricated as I write.
I had a GP 5 less motor probably still have it,  It looked most odd next to a H/D 8F, and had a King body, until I dropped the body and it just about exploded into a shower of Mazak.   The odd thing is Grafar solved the loco tender yawning gap by extending the tender forward into the cabs and no one else has done it as effectively since

[Hacksworth_Sidings]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

I have just found this thread.   What is the "Clutch"

The motor has two arms on the shaft, as the motor turns over the centrifugal force swings the arms outwards, these engage with a dish on the first reduction gear, providing a smooth take up of the drive when giving 12V directly from a standstill. (Clutch assembly pictured below, will be able to get more photos this weekend)

 

It is for this reason that examples with the clutch removed in favour of a permanent coupling will stall on points with insulated frogs if there aren’t any modifications to the pickup system, as the model only picks up power in a small range (I believe the pickup range, using only the plungers on the tender, is less than 1cm, so you’ll need some serious speed to get over points if you’re relying only on the plungers on a drive with the motor permanently coupled!)

 

 

The model pictured with the 2 pole motor runs rather nicely, so I’m keeping it in original condition, the other I’m planning on fitting wiper pickups to the loco, to combat the issues caused by such a short pickup range.

Edited February 19 by Hacksworth_Sidings

[DCB]

My GP 5 tender has a split axle  pick up through the mazak side frames, It  was missing the motor and the front footplate had snappeed off and I  was planning to use the tender chassis for a Triang 3F.    The older GP 5s seem to just have one plunger each side of the tender, not sure if they had the 6 wheel split axe pickup as well. The early Rovex(?)  Triang Princesses only had 1 pick up plunger per side. but apart from the old Triang  track Live frogs seemed to be the norm, back then. often the blade assembly swivelled on a central point and  touched the metal frog  and the relevant running rail providing continuous support and a continuous conductor. I have quite a few crude ancient 2 rail points, GEM possibly maybe Grafar of this type.  When working as designed the running was very good compared to dead frog Triang  series 1/3/4/ system 6 or Peco  Set track, but they look pretty ugly .  I suspect  the old Grafar models didn't really do slow running  with the crude spur gearing

[Hacksworth_Sidings]

Never knew GraFar offered split-axle pickup… Possibly a thing with later models then? My two didn’t have such.

[Barclay]

I can't quite tell from the picture whether the motor and gearbox shafts are in the same plane or not? If they are then a simple length of neoprene tube, as supplied by Branchlines, could suffice, as I used in this re-motored Tenshodo brass GP35.

 

[DCB]

The neophrene tube works well if the motor spins fast and under moderate load.   They don't work for me as my locos have to work for a living and are maintained to WW2 LNER standards,  If it still moves it don't  stop it for repairs.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.
As it's just a coupler not to take up angles as in the GP 35  Plan B  I would be looking  at a square metal tube  slipped over a pair of metal pinions which have been filed square to suit     I tried filing an Xo4 worm square many years ago but got sidetracked as always.

Plan C   There were some super cheap H0 battery powered train sets 20 years ago, 0-8-0 tank , BoBo diesel, US 4-4-0, and 0-8-0 Diesel plastic track, no reverse,and they had a spring loaded sprag clutch arrangement so if overloaded the motor kept spinning and the clutch clicked happily and no damage was done.  I have often wondered about a similar system where a heavy flywheel is on the end of a non reversible worm gear transmission like the Dyna Drive, just hitting the buffers could wreck the gearing on those..   Plan C was why Plan B never was finished, Plan D was why Plan C was never finished.  Plan D was stick it on eBay as a non runner,  Sorted.

[bobthemilk]

On 19/02/2024 at 13:03, Hacksworth_Sidings said:

The motor has two arms on the shaft, as the motor turns over the centrifugal force swings the arms outwards, these engage with a dish on the first reduction gear, providing a smooth take up of the drive when giving 12V directly from a standstill. (Clutch assembly pictured below, will be able to get more photos this weekend)

 

It is for this reason that examples with the clutch removed in favour of a permanent coupling will stall on points with insulated frogs if there aren’t any modifications to the pickup system, as the model only picks up power in a small range (I believe the pickup range, using only the plungers on the tender, is less than 1cm, so you’ll need some serious speed to get over points if you’re relying only on the plungers on a drive with the motor permanently coupled!)

 

 

The model pictured with the 2 pole motor runs rather nicely, so I’m keeping it in original condition, the other I’m planning on fitting wiper pickups to the loco, to combat the issues caused by such a short pickup range.

Found some pictures lurking in the darkest files on my laptop ( whilst looking for something else! ) that may or may not help , a before shot and some after . I think an airfix motor is being used

Apologies if these belong to 'you' , I show purely to spread some knowledge about these locos . TIA

 

PS I have somewhere a tech sheet on how to set these motors up , apologies again if you have seen it before but if I find it , I will post

[bobthemilk]

And this from our very own , https://www.youtube.com/@sncf231e , showing an X03/4 in action

And then search Graham farish oo gauge 

DOH!

Edit due to smart phone being clever

Edited February 24 by bobthemilk
Clever smart phone in the hands of the operator