DCC digital Control systems with LoDi or YaMoRc. Which is best??

[Robin C]

Hi all, at almost 80 fairly now to the hobby & want to make my layout DCC. I plan to have a 14' x 14' layout on 2 & a half levels. Baseboards are almost in & doing the track plans ready for wiring. Big problem now is which manufactures products will be best to use. I like LoDi & YaMoRc who I gather have now taken over from Digikjs?  Its a nightmare & minefield for someone with no experience to overcome. I was also thinking of using the MP1 - 10 point motors. It's a big expensive step now & don't want to get it wrong. I've heard LoDi are a bit more expensive than YaMoRc but some LoDi items will do two of the YaMoRc  ones so its swings & roundabouts.

Do any of you out there have any experience of these products yourselves & their pitfalls that would help. I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here!!! 

Many thanks if you have advice, Cheers Robin.

[Damo666]

Hi Robin,

 

I'll be interested in what answers you get, as I too find the initial research into a new area almost overwhelming with the need to understand new terminology, what it exactly means and how it may affect my decisions.

 

I tend to want to know everything before deciding so that I don’t head down the wrong rabbit-hole, but this prolongs that point where I can make a meaningful start.

 

Will be popping in to this thread to see the words of wisdom.

[ITG]

Your best bet is to pick the brains of James at DCCTrainAutomation, as he is the importer of Lodi, Yamorc and the MTB point motors. I suggest though that you define clearly what you want to do with your layout, as there’s an element of horses for courses in the choices. I’ve no connection with James, other than a satisfied customer. I’ve found him to be willing to chat at both exhibitions and on the phone, but maybe best to pre-book a slot if you think you need time.
 

From my own experience, I’d say you can’t go wrong with MTB MP point motors - easy to fit, easy to adjust, above/below board,  realistic action, reliable. But there is a whole range of them - will you be using live frogs which require switching? Will you want to link signals to them? Etc.

 

I have Yamorc turnout decoder units (YD6116 IIRC?) and YD6016 current sensors, but Lodi reversing sensor. Why mix and match? Because those products do what I want them to. Eg, the Lodi product draws zero current (virtually unique as far as I could see) - essential if you wish to link it to a current sensor.

 

BTW, the main man behind Yamorc used to design products for DIgikejis who have ceased trading. It isn’t that the former has taken over from the latter.

  I don’t know all the answers let alone all the questions but you need to specify what you’re trying to do first. It seems to me that you can spend little or lots on DCC but much of what’s on the market in the UK is not as newly developed that from Europe, so it’s interesting all three of those products you mention are not home grown in UK. Many folk will rightly point out that actual decoder prices and qualities vary significantly - but again, depends on budget and intentions as to what suits the individual.

 

Good luck

Ian

[jpendle]

DCC Train Automation also sell DCC systems from Roco, the Z21 which I use, plus others. It would be best to tell them what you want to accomplish and let them guide you.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[Robin C]

Thank you Damo666 for your reply.  I go by the old adage buy cheap buy twice so need to get it right & hopefully when I'm gone my family have something still in demand & works well. I myself am a London City boy but after many travels now live in Llanelli S Wales. I hope I get a response & perhaps some better ideas like Digitrax although I think their stuff is getting a bit behind the times now as they are not all solid state & others have moved on a bit quicker?

I follow Charlie Bishop on "Chadwick" as I find he explains things well & is easy to follow. We also have DCC Train Automation in the west country that seem to give sound advice. The thought of doing it is daunting but guess the first step is the biggest & with common sense things come easier with doing.

Look forward to you dropping in.

Good luck.

[ITG]

I meant to add that it may be helpful to ask the mods to move this thread to the DCC section, as you’ll probably get more responses there.

[Robin C]

ITG, Thank you very much for your advice, its much appreciated. You just confirmed all I here about James at DCC Train Automation & that I expect will be my main route. I'm glad you have used these products with success & mixed them. I am using Peco code 100 with electrofrog points. I started collecting a lot of my items well over 2 years ago hence code 100 & 30 Peco points in stock in preparation.  Ill health has stopped me until now getting on with it. The layout will be on 2.5 levels with a ramp of 2.2% between 1 & 2 which drop .450mm. I also have 2 reversing loops one on level 1 & another on 2. The half level is to a Timber Yard & Intermodel yard.

I think I will have to go to see James as you advise as my plan is firstly to get it up & running with points switched both manually & by my Prodigy Advanced 2.

I need to plan ahead for adding signals & block detection to be added at a later stage. I find it difficult to know if I need a bus for each track circuit up & down lines & how many more like slow lines. Also circuits for each level. Do the point motors run off a separate circuit along with yard/building  & station lights. You are quite right it needs to be planned out with expert advice.

My original plan was to use Digikejis units then we had Covid, after the all but folded. Along from the ashes came YaMoRc but you could not get the units because of shortage of materials so it became very hit & miss. Now LoDi have come on the scene & James seems to like them but not been around long where as YaMoRc have been well tested via Digikejis & improved.

That is why I put up the posting to find out from hands on users.

Much appreciated your help, Thanks Robin.

[Michael Hodgson]

My impression is that both Lodi and  Yamorc are well regarded.  Once people have chosen their command station, they tend to stick to the same supplier for other bits, although Z21 users seem happier to mix and match.

[ITG]

If, as said in your first post, you’re fairly new to all this, the layout you describe sounds pretty ambitious. I’m still building my first ‘proper’ layout (I’d been using DCC  for a few years previously) using block detection and computer control (iTrain) but I first both developed my learning and tested concepts by building a simple oval, loop and couple of sidings to ensure I grasped the basics. If you plan to use block detection, that will have a fundamental impact on how you wire the layout. I’d certainly advise getting that wiring in place, even if you don’t initially use block detection (assuming you plan on current sensing, as you mention Yamorc etc).

You also need to consider how many “live” locos you foresee on the layout, as that may affect the required power supply, and how you set that all up. I have a Roco dual power supply which will respectively power separately the two halves of my layout, effectively one half being the main station and approaches, the other being storage roads, reverse loop etc. The Roco Z21 will drive just the accessory bus.

Theres a lot of sense in keeping your track bus(es) separate from your accessory (ie turnout motors) bus so you can still move turnouts even if a derailment causes a short. (Believe me, it will happen!)

You don’t have to run other accessories (lights etc) off a DCC supply; I use a separate 12v dc supply for both electronic uncouplers and lights. But you could use DCC, it’s just that you will then need more decoders. In fact, you could even run turnout motors off dc, but either way, the frog changing needs to be run from the track bus.

Ian

[jpendle]

12 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

My impression is that both Lodi and  Yamorc are well regarded.  Once people have chosen their command station, they tend to stick to the same supplier for other bits, although Z21 users seem happier to mix and match.

That's because some of the Roco kit is a tad expensive and not necessarily the best.

 

I've got a Z21 & Roco 10808 Railcom block detectors, but I opted for NCE Switch 8's as they were best suited for my Tortoise point motors, I've also gone for the Yamorc YD8116 switch controller for signals as it is more flexible than the Roco equivalent. Moving forward I plan on using  MTB point motors with the YD8116.

 

FWIW the NCE products don't work if a Railcom signal is on the bus so I ended up turning Railcom off on the booster for my accessory bus.

 

And, for the OP, if block detection is being used then Railcom adds a lot of benefits and US designed kit tends not to support Railcom.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[melmerby]

Like John above I have also got a mix of devices.

 

Z21 DCC system, Digikeijs Loconet block detection, Switch 8s & Tortoises, as well as some MP-1 point motors driven by Arduino based decoders and Dapol later type servo signals, also driven by Arduino.

I've got an LDT booster and an LDT turntable controller for a Fleischmann TT.

 

This was arrived at after much variation. (I started with Lenz 100 system and LDT RS-8 block detectors)

I have also tried Seep, Hornby, Peco & old H&M point motors driven by Lenz LS150s, but have had the Tortoises + Switch 8s the longest with zero failures since installation.

 

 

Edited February 9 by melmerby

[Robin C]

Thanks again ITG, we seem to be singing of a similar song sheet. I don't plan to try doing it all at once but step by step. In the end I would like to use block detection & i Trains if the first parts become achievable also being aware of my age. I would like to plan for it leaving myself the option of doing if possible later on. My first thoughts are main level. 1. Fast lines up & down. 2. Slow lines up & down. 3. Possibly a freight line. Would I best bus wire them on separate buses ? On that level I also have a TMD & Network Rail yard plus a large Station as well as a reversing loop.

I then have a 2.2% twin track ramp to lower level where I plan storage yard & shunting yard & another reversing loop. The drop from level 1 down to level 2 is 450mm. My decks on both levels are approx 800-900mm wide. I also have lift up sections on level 1 & 2 for access into the room.

As you suggested I was thinking of doing bit by bit. My top boards are on a 1.2 metre long x 800-900mm wide grid. I was thinking that each 1.2m section could be lifted out. Join my bus wired with push fit connectors between each board for ease of working on & maintenance. This way I could test sections as I go? Possible??? It also gives me much more ease of track laying the lower deck.

My upper half deck is for a timber yard & intermodel yard.

I am confused by your term "Current Sensing".

Accessory buses? So confusing. I hear some AC 16 volts others DC bus & again DCC Accessory bus. Others using the rail DCC bus. Point motors ie Tortoise are DC but can run off a DCC bus? Others DCC Concepts do a DC & a digital motor.

I originally bought DCC Concepts TW 50 metres of Red & Black bus wire in 2.5mm = 13# gauge but now understand it's to heavy if I wire twin track buses separately I only need 32/0.2. For my droppers I bought DCC Concepts TW 50 metres of Red & Black 1mm = 17# gauge but now only need 16/0.2.

My locos range from Lima through to Accurascale & Cavalex so will draw various amounts of power.

I'm also aware of positioning the various units I will need to run my layout ie drop down boards etc. I guess the command unit is first followed by others, once I have an idea of what I'll need I can plan their positions on the layout & fixing methods. Measure twice & Cut once is my motto.

As you suggested I have asked the Mods to move the question to the DCC section. I cannot thank you all for your time in helping & what a great family it is to join. 

Many thanks, Robin.

[ITG]

I’ll answer in bite sized chunks…..

59 minutes ago, Robin C said:

I am confused by your term "Current Sensing

If you are planning on block detection, you need a method of such detection. There are various options (eg light detectors, which use infra red sensors to detect when a train passes) but what many folk use is ‘current sensors’. In other words, each block of track (isolated on one rail at both ends) is fed by power via a current sensing unit (Yamorc and others make these). Typically, these current sensing units will support 16 separate blocks. The current sensing unit as a whole is fed from the track bus, and feedback given via the DCC system to show (usually) on a screen when that block is occupied. This occupied state is shown by the current draw being detected - hence the term current sensing. The current draw could be the loco motor itself, but also coaches with lighting etc will cause a draw.

Edited February 10 by ITG
Added info

[Robin C]

Got it. Thanks.

[Izzy]

I may be wrong, and perhaps someone can correct me if so, but as a user of a Prodigy Advance 2 system I believe they are not compatible with any form of automation in respect of feedback/block detection since neither Loconet or Railcom is supported.

[ITG]

1 hour ago, Robin C said:

I originally bought DCC Concepts TW 50 metres of Red & Black bus wire in 2.5mm = 13# gauge but now understand it's to heavy if I wire twin track buses separately I only need 32/0.2

Better to use too heavy rather than not heavy enough, so you can still use.

[ITG]

1 hour ago, Robin C said:

Point motors ie Tortoise are DC but can run off a DCC bus? Others DCC Concepts do a DC & a digital motor.

A motor needs some control and communication to make it work. In effect, all motors could be said to be DC. To use with DC power, they need a button or switch to trigger them. With DCC, they need a decoder and a method of commanding the decoder, usually your DCC system. Some turnout motors come with a decoder built into the motor casing, others not so. For the latter, there are single accessory decoder (eg Gaugemaster) or multiple decoders in a single unit, which can switch several motors. Then there’s also the question of how to switch frog polarity, the 3 most common options being a frog juicer (which kind of causes a mini short circuit to switch polarity), a switch built into the motor unit (most if not all MTB MP models) or the multi decoder unit may also have built in polarity switches.

 

[ITG]

10 minutes ago, Izzy said:

I may be wrong, and perhaps someone can correct me if so, but as a user of a Prodigy Advance 2 system I believe they are not compatible with any form of automation in respect of feedback/block detection since neither Loconet or Railcom is supported.

I think you’re correct. I started with (still have) a Prodigy Advance2 but graduated to a Z21, not least to provide detection capability.

[Izzy]

28 minutes ago, ITG said:

I think you’re correct. I started with (still have) a Prodigy Advance2 but graduated to a Z21, not least to provide detection capability.

 

In which case @Robin C will need to confirm this with say James at DCC Train Automation before going any further. Having to change to another DCC system will I have no doubt help decide what other parts to go with it will be best. 

[Dungrange]

On 09/02/2024 at 17:27, Robin C said:

I go by the old adage buy cheap buy twice so need to get it right & hopefully when I'm gone my family have something still in demand & works well.

 

Or perhaps more likely ends up in a skip because no-one in the family cares about your hobby.☹️

 

6 hours ago, Robin C said:

This way I could test sections as I go? Possible??? It also gives me much more ease of track laying the lower deck.

 

Testing as you go is definitely recommended, otherwise it will be difficult to track down a fault.

 

6 hours ago, Robin C said:

My locos range from Lima through to Accurascale & Cavalex so will draw various amounts of power.

 

The question is how many locomotives will be drawing power at the same time?  Are the locomotives sound fitted (which will draw more current)?  Are the coaches lit (which will also draw current)?  Even a locomotive just sitting on the track will draw some power (albeit not much), as will any resister wheelsets that you fit if you go with a current sensing method of detection.  How much stock needs to be detected?  The amount of current you are drawing through the track will dictate whether your Command Station can provide enough current to operate the layout on its own or whether you will need one or more boosters.  The layout that you are planning sounds quite ambitious, so you're probably looking at dividing the layout into one or more power districts and buying one or more boosters to power these.  You'll therefore have more than one DCC 'Track Bus' (ie you'll have one from each booster).  You may also look at splitting these into sub-districts, each fed through a circuit breaker, so that a short in one part of the layout doesn't shut the entire layout down.  You could therefore have quite a few different 'DCC Track Buses', which are all isolated from each other.

 

6 hours ago, Robin C said:

Accessory buses? So confusing. I hear some AC 16 volts others DC bus & again DCC Accessory bus. Others using the rail DCC bus. Point motors ie Tortoise are DC but can run off a DCC bus? Others DCC Concepts do a DC & a digital motor.

 

An 'Accessory Bus' or 'DCC Accessory Bus' is no different from a 'DCC Track Bus' (ie it carries exactly the same DCC signals), but instead of being connected to the track it is connected only to accessories.  The advantage of a separate Accessory Bus, is that if each DCC Track Bus is fed through a circuit breaker, then when one trips, the accessories that are connected to the Accessory Bus can still be used.  That is, the points can be changed, to remove the short without manual intervention from 'the hand of God'.

 

As has already been said, point motors, etc will draw some current when stationary and usually more when they are being operated.  If they are drawing power from your DCC Track bus, then this is power that is being taken away from running the trains.  If you have lots of accessories, then they may consume so much power, that you need another DCC booster to meet your current requirements.  If this were the case, then it's likely to be cheaper to look at using a separate transformer with an AC / DC output to power some of the accessories simply to reduce the load on your DCC buses.  Not all accessories need to be powered the same way, so some could be fed from a DCC Accessory Bus, some could be fed from a 16v AC supply, and others could be fed from a 12v DC supply.  You just need to take care to keep all these different power sources separate.

 

 

Edited February 10 by Dungrange

[WIMorrison]

Another advantage of separate track and accessory busses is that you can run them at different voltages. 
 

as an example I run the track bus at 17v and the accessory bus at 12v - both DCC

[melmerby]

10 hours ago, Robin C said:

I originally bought DCC Concepts TW 50 metres of Red & Black bus wire in 2.5mm = 13# gauge but now understand it's to heavy if I wire twin track buses separately I only need 32/0.2. For my droppers I bought DCC Concepts TW 50 metres of Red & Black 1mm = 17# gauge but now only need 16/0.2.

You'll be better off sticking to one measurent system, to save any confusion.

AWG? I've no idea how that correlates with metric wire sizes.

 

I used twin & earth mains cable stripped from the sheath.

2.5mm for the track bus, mostly 1.5mm for accesories (e.g. between track bus, the occupancty detectors and the track section terminal (choc) blocks, with flexible wire from the choc block to the rails themselves (The "droppers")

 

The track is feed via a current trip from the Z21, the point/signal decoders are fed from a separate accessory bus direct from the Z21.

That way if a something causes an overload (e.g. running into a wrongly set point) , you can still operate the point, then drive the loco away after a reset.

 

 

[mevaman1]

We (Redruth MRC) are embarking on a huge project to bring ‘Reading’ to exhibitions.  We purchased this fantastic layout and want to run the trains using block sections and route setting.

 

James at DCC Train Automation plus David and the McKinley Team plus Iain (we met them all at the recent Southampton Show) have been a great help.

 

We have just purchased Roco Z21 plus some mp1 point motors and a Yamorc YD8116 switch decoder and Yamorc YD6016 sensor.  We are going to set up a short section of track with a couple of 4 aspect signals and learn the system.

 

We too are on a steep learning curve!

[Donw]

The term accessory bus covers more than just DCC you can have a DCC accessory bus but you can also have a different bus these may be referred to as an LCB layout control bus. These can include Loconet, MERG CBUS,  Open LCB,  and more.  These provide much more than the DCC used to drive trains and may be better for Automation. On a computer you can use JMRI to control  a model railway. Others include Rocrail and Itrain. 

What I suggest is to try to understand what it is you want from the system  get it really clear so you can measure system against your aims, There is no system that will suit everyone. 

The question of operating Tortoise motors over DCC arose . I  did this over 20 years ago using a lens compaq and a lens accessory decoder Lens sold a small adapter to reverse the motor current. However I  tend to use servos these days partly because they are more compact.

Don

[Robin C]

I'd like to thank you all for your input & time on this topic. Some has gone over my head at this early stage but given me great thought to look into the subject more to hopefully sidestep the many pitfalls. Over the last week I have tried to do more on my layout plan on "Any rail" so I have a good solid base to work from & it is progressing slowly. I have take your sound advice & today contacted James at DCC Train Automation for advice. What a helpful chap he is & echoed what you all say in what do I want my railway to do. In honesty I'm not 100% sure through lack of knowledge, we all want it all but what is the cost in the end & can I afford it. It's like buying your first car then realising it's not powerful to pull the caravan for holidays or not capable of leaving a tarmac surface when going to an outdoor event after it's been raining. It only all comes with age & experience. After your comments I'm a bit more aware of what I want. Talking to James as you all suggested he wants a track plan or as best as I can do at present. We then have a starting point. In our basic chat he recommends I go for YaMoRc as he feels I would not get the full benefit of the Lodi system. As ITG says a YaMoRc YD6016LN-CS & MTB points. I would as said have to change from my Prodigy Advance 2 to a Z21-10820 as its Rail com compatible & use i-Trains. He has given other advice as well. So its getting the layout plan done & to him he can then assess with a plan so hopefully by the end of March I will have some components to get started. He thinks my DCC concepts 50 mts of 2.5 red & black twisted cable is too heavy so guess I will have to sell it along with my as new & bearly used Prodigy Advanced 2. Any takers?

Thanks to all, Robin Cook.