Signal Spacing clearing point

[DCB]

Looking for a bit of confirmation here.  
Double track main line,   Station with short 300 foot platforms and  Up goods dead end lay bye  requiring train to draw past signal box and  into Up platform before setting back.
Station has Home and lay bye starter side by side 50 yards North of the Signal Box . Some  400 yards South, Up the  line (in advance) is the Up Starter.   There is an outer home signal 400 yards North of the Up Home Signal.
So  Goods has passed the Box.  Signalman has seen tail lamp, given train out of section etc to box in the rear and conveyed to driver he should set back into Lay bye.   
Can Signalman accept  express passenger.   He has 1/4 mile clear beyond Outer home.?  
Goods has reversed into lay Bye.  Up "Fast" goods has entered station and stopped for water with tail of train 100 yards North of Signal box and within 1/4 mile of the outer home, can signalman accept another train, if so would that be under section clear but station blocked "Warning" arrangements, which I think involves the following train to be checked and crew advised that the station is blocked?  Is that right.  Are my signals labelled correctly?   Just trying to get my head round this.

TYPO Should be 440 yards not 400.

Edited February 14 by DCB

[Wheatley]

1. Yes

2. Yes provided he can ascertain the fast goods is complete (get the guard to take the tail lamp off and wave it at the box  if there's no phone provided for the purpose).

3. Yes provided Regulation 5 (later 3.5) Warning Acceptance is authorised at that box, it wasn't universal. 

 

Indicating to the driver of the following goods that he was accepted at 5 / 3.5 was at various times done by bringing him almost to a stand at the previous box's starter, or by waving a green flag slowly from side to side as he passed the previous box, it wasn't necessary to actually speak to the driver. 

[Michael Hodgson]

It would be unusual for reg 5 to be authorised in this situation - the reason for providing an outer home is to allow acceptance of train when you've got a train stopped at station.  In any case, regulation 5 acceptance was usually permitted only for goods trains.

 

The clearing point is 440 yards past the home signal where there isn't an outer home.  Where it does exist, the clearing point is the inner home.

Whether or not there is anything in the siding would not affect the ability to accept, it's the main line that has to be clear, and if it's not, then you can't accept.

 

In any case it would be poor regulating to have a slow goods needing to be overtaken by a fast goods which needs to stop for water just before an express is due. 

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, Wheatley said:

 

Indicating to the driver of the following goods that he was accepted at 5 / 3.5 was at various times done by bringing him almost to a stand at the previous box's starter, or by waving a green flag slowly from side to side as he passed the previous box, it wasn't necessary to actually speak to the driver. 

Green flag waved slowly from side to side was an emergency signal given to drivers of trains which have divided, where suddenly stopping would run the risk of the back part catching up and colliding with the front part.  It was used at various dates, but whether or not it was appropriate would depend on gradients, and to a large extent also on the signalmans judgment on the best course of action.  When given, this signal authorised the passing of signals at danger, letting the first portion continue into a section already occupied, and the driver has to understand that he may have to stop because of the train that's already there; the hope however is that it is carrying on in blissful ignorance.  Train divided bells signal may been received from the box in rear to advise the signalman.

Edited February 13 by Michael Hodgson

[Jeremy Cumberland]

6 hours ago, DCB said:

There is an outer home signal 400 yards North of the Up Home Signal.

You've drawn it as 450 yards, which is I am sure what you meant. 400 yards would defeat the entire point of having an outer home, unless signal box special instructions modified the clearing point to 400 yards.

 

The distance to the up starter depends (only?) on the maximum length of train that you might want to shunt or have stopped in the station.

[Flying Pig]

5 hours ago, Wheatley said:

1. Yes

2. Yes provided he can ascertain the fast goods is complete (get the guard to take the tail lamp off and wave it at the box  if there's no phone provided for the purpose).

3. Yes provided Regulation 5 (later 3.5) Warning Acceptance is authorised at that box, it wasn't universal. 

 

Indicating to the driver of the following goods that he was accepted at 5 / 3.5 was at various times done by bringing him almost to a stand at the previous box's starter, or by waving a green flag slowly from side to side as he passed the previous box, it wasn't necessary to actually speak to the driver. 

 

And if Regulation 5 was not authorised, the following train could not be accepted with the tail of the fast goods outside the inner home?

[Wheatley]

Apologies, I was writing that on the train at 7am this morning; somewhere between the Wi-fi disappearing and re-appearing I forgot to mention the 400 yds / 450 yds mismatch. The Outer Home needs to be (at least) 440 yards outside the inner home otherwise (as mentioned) it's just there for show.

 

As for signal labelling (which I also forgot), Outer/Inner Home is fine as is Starter/Advanced Starter. Other regions labelled them Home 1, Home 2, Home 3 etc ... Starter, and from some point before 1987 Starters became Section signals. Not sure what happened to the Starter/Advanced Starter in those circumstances, I don't think you can have Section/Advanced Section, you have to re-name the first one something else.  

 

Quote

And if Regulation 5 was not authorised, the following train could not be accepted with the tail of the fast goods outside the inner home?

 

Correct, because the 440 yard clearing point is fouled. Unless there's a colour light distant in which case the clearing point is 200 yards. Unless .... etc etc ! 

Edited February 13 by Wheatley

[RailWest]

'Section' signal is the one which actually controls entry into the block section ahead.  Any other signal in rear of it is not a 'section' signal. What it might actually be called would depend upon the local railway practice...

[Michael Hodgson]

48 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Apologies, I was writing that on the train at 7am this morning; somewhere between the Wi-fi disappearing and re-appearing I forgot to mention the 400 yds / 450 yds mismatch. The Outer Home needs to be (at least) 440 yards outside the inner home otherwise (as mentioned) it's just there for show.

 

Until they were brought in line with everybody else (about the time of grouping, I think), the 440 yards was only 400 yards on the NER.  Outer homes were usually a bit further than 440 yrds as bridges, curves etc made it better for sighting.

[Michael Hodgson]

The rules on when a signalman should give train out of section and hence when you could accept varied from company to company in pre-grouping days, for example depending on whether or not the train was continuing away from you on its journey.  It took a long time for the LNER to standardise their block regulations because they inherited four different practices!  It was less of a problem for the other three of the Big Four, but even BR didn't consolidate them until 1960 (with the Western still having their own Regulation 4a acceptance in some places!)

[DCB]

17 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

In any case it would be poor regulating to have a slow goods needing to be overtaken by a fast goods which needs to stop for water just before an express is due. 

I think something similar happened on the Gloucester Bristol Line at Haresfield (?)as described in Red for Danger, 

[Right Away]

On 14/02/2024 at 05:02, DCB said:

I think something similar happened on the Gloucester Bristol Line at Haresfield (?)as described in Red for Danger, 

Charfield?

[The Stationmaster]

On 13/02/2024 at 13:36, Michael Hodgson said:

The rules on when a signalman should give train out of section and hence when you could accept varied from company to company in pre-grouping days, for example depending on whether or not the train was continuing away from you on its journey.  It took a long time for the LNER to standardise their block regulations because they inherited four different practices!  It was less of a problem for the other three of the Big Four, but even BR didn't consolidate them until 1960 (with the Western still having their own Regulation 4a acceptance in some places!)

Just doing some catching up (after eye surgery).

 

The WR Regulation to which you refer was 4A, Lone Clear to Clearing Point Only.  4a was one  of the clauses of Regulation 4.    The regulation was taken out of the Block Regulations book with the 1972 reissue when the separate WR book ceased to exist.  However Regulation 4A effectively remained in use because where it still applied it was incorporated in the Signalbox Special Instructions - a common procedure if a Regulation ceased to be in widespread use.  

 

I can't recall if it still remained in use in any WR 'boxes by the 1980s but I was rather amused to find, when I visited the 'boxes at Shrewsbury in 1993, that it was still in use there - although obviously no longer called Regulation 4A.

[St Enodoc]

17 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Just doing some catching up (after eye surgery).

 

The WR Regulation to which you refer was 4A, Lone Clear to Clearing Point Only.  4a was one  of the clauses of Regulation 4.    The regulation was taken out of the Block Regulations book with the 1972 reissue when the separate WR book ceased to exist.  However Regulation 4A effectively remained in use because where it still applied it was incorporated in the Signalbox Special Instructions - a common procedure if a Regulation ceased to be in widespread use.  

 

I can't recall if it still remained in use in any WR 'boxes by the 1980s but I was rather amused to find, when I visited the 'boxes at Shrewsbury in 1993, that it was still in use there - although obviously no longer called Regulation 4A.

Is that much the same as Section Clear but Station or Junction Blocked (3-5-5) on other railways?

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Is that much the same as Section Clear but Station or Junction Blocked (3-5-5) on other railways?

No.  They were used for different reasons and in different situations.

 

The Warning Arrangement 3-5-5 means the line is clear only as far as the Home Signal - so no overlap is available if the driver misjudges his braking, and the driver must be cautioned (green handsignal unless a Warning subsidiary signal is provided).  Used only where authorised and for the classes of train to which the autorisation applied, or for Engineering trains stopping in the section and Platelayers Trolleys going through tunnels.

 

Under Regulation 4a, you do have the 440 yards overlap, but boxes are too close together to provide adequate braking at the distant signal (typically with the distant under the starting signal of the box in rear). 

If Box B is offered a train by A, he offers it to C before accepting.  If C accepts from B, B accepts from A in the normal way and immediately clears his signals, and A can now also clear all of his signals including his distant.

However if B does not get acceptance from C but the line is clear to B's clearing point (the usual 1/4 beyond his Home SIgnal), he returns 2-2-2 Line Clear to Clearing Point Only to box A.  This tells A to keep his signals on, and the train speed will be checked passing the distant at caution.  Once the train has passed the Distant, A can then clear the rest of his signals.

The effect is that A's distant acts as a distant for C. 

 

This was a GWR/Western Region practice not used by other companies.  They moved their distant signals further out as speeds got higher, or provided additional outer distants if necessary or had indicators so that one box could tell another to keep its distant on.

 

Under the Warning Arrangement, if the situation improves before Train Entering Section is received and the overlap now becomes available, B can tell A by sending 3-3-5, and A now longer has to caution the train if it has not yet passed him.

Under Reg 4a, there is no equivalent way of handling the improvement when B does get acceptance from C.  So if A received 2-2-2 from B and some time might elapse before the train sights his distant, A might refuse the 2-2-2 and try again shortly afterwards in the hope of a full Regulation 4 acceptance.

 

In both cases, different rules applied in fog.

 

 

[Wheatley]

On 13/02/2024 at 11:30, Michael Hodgson said:

Green flag waved slowly from side to side was an emergency signal given to drivers of trains which have divided, where suddenly stopping would run the risk of the back part catching up and colliding with the front part.  It was used at various dates, but whether or not it was appropriate would depend on gradients, and to a large extent also on the signalmans judgment on the best course of action.  When given, this signal authorised the passing of signals at danger, letting the first portion continue into a section already occupied, and the driver has to understand that he may have to stop because of the train that's already there; the hope however is that it is carrying on in blissful ignorance.  Train divided bells signal may been received from the box in rear to advise the signalman.

Sorry, only just noticed this. Yes you're absolutely right, apologies. 

 

Green waved slowly - train divided.

Green held steady - Warning acceptance - section clear but station or junction blocked. 

[5BarVT]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

This was a GWR/Western Region practice not used by other companies.  They moved their distant signals further out as speeds got higher, or provided additional outer distants if necessary or had indicators so that one box could tell another to keep its distant on.

I have also seen the term “underbolting” applied to distants (seems to be an LMS/LMR terminology, hence why I don’t know precisely what it means).  Is that related to using another boxes distant cos yours isn’t far enough out?

Paul.

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Is that much the same as Section Clear but Station or Junction Blocked (3-5-5) on other railways?

No - completely different as it means exactly what it says, i.e. the line is clear to the Clearing Point.  It was a GWR/WR Regulation to get round the problem of lack of control over the distant signals of the 'box in rear where there were short sections but it was still used in some places where such controls were provided.   One of the most fascinating examples was at Reading where on one particular running a train/movement could be accepted by several different bell signals depending on the condition under which it was accepted - there were at least 5 conditions of acceptance on that line when you include Permissive and Shunting acceptances!

 

The Report linked on this page explains the use (and failure to use) the Regulation and is well worth a tread for anyone who is interested -

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=513

 

The Regulation was considerably amended and henceforth it was applied only where authorised by the Signal Box Special Instructions, WR Block Regulations, Supplement No.4, August 1965. (although it might well have been published in a Section D Notice before then, quite likely I would have thought)

[RailWest]

3 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

I have also seen the term “underbolting” applied to distants (seems to be an LMS/LMR terminology, hence why I don’t know precisely what it means).  Is that related to using another boxes distant cos yours isn’t far enough out?

Paul.

AIUI it was a mechanical bolt on the distant lever in the box on rear, preventing the chap in rear clearing his distant without prior release from the box in advance. I am guessing that the term underbolt arose because it was fixed to the lever tail below (under) the operating floor?

[beast66606]

3 hours ago, RailWest said:

AIUI it was a mechanical bolt on the distant lever in the box on rear, preventing the chap in rear clearing his distant without prior release from the box in advance. I am guessing that the term underbolt arose because it was fixed to the lever tail below (under) the operating floor?

 

(Often) Operating in conjunction with a face disc in the box, I own one from Hooton South which would have been worked by Hooton North and it reads "Down Slow Distant Off" - when North cleared the down slow distant the disc would move from the horizontal to the vertical for the text to be visible and the bobby in South would then know he could pull off the down slow distant.

[RailWest]

The attached photo apparently shows a MR 'improved' underbolt, tho' I've no idea either how it worked or what the 'improvement' was :-(

[5BarVT]

13 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

I own one from Hooton South

Now I know who to ask - our mutual friend who probably took it out.

 

4 hours ago, RailWest said:

I am guessing that the term underbolt arose because it was fixed to the lever tail below (under) the operating floor?

Hadn’t thought about it being related to under the floor . . .

 

12 minutes ago, RailWest said:

The attached photo apparently shows a MR 'improved' underbolt, tho' I've no idea either how it worked or what the 'improvement' was :-(

. . . which, given the MR went for locking behind the levers on the operating floor, could be the derivation.

Thanks to both, my education has been increased and will probably be increased further.

 

Paul.

[RailWest]

This might prove of interest also.....

Edited April 22 by RailWest

[5BarVT]

5 hours ago, RailWest said:

This might prove of interest also.....

Indeed it does.  Fills in the gaps nicely - slotting of the lever rather than the arm.

I suspect it made it easier to get the pulls adjusted, although I did very little mechanical semaphore, I did learn that getting slotting of (lower) distants adjusted right was not the easiest thing.

Paul.

[beast66606]

8 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Indeed it does.  Fills in the gaps nicely - slotting of the lever rather than the arm.

I suspect it made it easier to get the pulls adjusted, although I did very little mechanical semaphore, I did learn that getting slotting of (lower) distants adjusted right was not the easiest thing.

Paul.

 

I also own an indicator for a bolt lock, from Green Lane Junction (not too far from Hooton ^^) which has an indication "Blackpool Street Down Distant" and Off or On. Additionally I photographed one at Birkenhead North No.2 which was worked by Bidston East Junction and was very noisy when B.East pulled the lever to release.