Peterborough North

[great northern]

Oh dear, sky high pollen count finally took its toll. Awakened coughing at 0500, couldn't stop unless I stood up, which I had to do for three hours. Taken all my medication, and hoping it may quieten down soon.

 

At PN, hopefully back to the correct sequence, and you get three locos for the price of one. Well OK, perhaps one is a bit small.

The K2 is on its way.

Not long after, both the K2 and the 02 have progressed, but the 02 will be stopping.

 

[Mallard60022]

13 hours ago, great northern said:

He'd still have to stop in Westwood Yard for examination, which in his case might reveal more than one hot box.

So I heard. He had a 'reputation' and Firemen didn't always enjoy his company I read somewhere. However, her is remembered. How many others are apart from the obvious?

P  

[great northern]

41 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

So I heard. He had a 'reputation' and Firemen didn't always enjoy his company I read somewhere. However, her is remembered. How many others are apart from the obvious?

P  

Hailstone is the other one that comes to mind, again because he had a reputation as a bit of a dasher. I've read of a fireman who was transfered from E.Anglia and on his second working day found himself firing for Hoole down Stoke Bank at a speed probably twice as fast as he had ever experienced before. Its usually the extremists that are remembered, isn't it. In all walks of life.

[great northern]

2 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

Perhaps influenced by the alleged relatively poor selling of the K3 despite their greater area of operation over a longer timespan?

 

Simon

Good point. I did wonder at the time whether it was a bit early for a K3 when there were still some more exciting things to be done, and it didn't get the best of reviews. Where we are now though, with so much already covered, the K2, and even more so the B16 are I think surprise omissions.

[30368]

35 minutes ago, great northern said:

Good point. I did wonder at the time whether it was a bit early for a K3 when there were still some more exciting things to be done, and it didn't get the best of reviews. Where we are now though, with so much already covered, the K2, and even more so the B16 are I think surprise omissions.

 

Yes agree Gilbert. I rather like the look of the K2's, indeed of all Gresley's earlier designs. Was the K2 a rather useful engine in WW2 given it was two cylinders only? Certainly it was one of Gresley classes to escape a Thompson re-build so it must have been easier to service and maintain than his three cylinder engines.

 

I did build a "Scottish" side cab version of the K2, using a London Road Models kit, for a model railway club down South. It was a tricky build, but then I was still learning a great deal about loco building back then and I still am.

 

The K2.  The London Road etches and castings

do build up into a good representation of the prototype.

 

Just to show the complexity of the assembly, the motion plate consisted of around 10 parts that had to be soldered very, very carefully!

 

Sorry for the interruption all this sort of stuff should be elsewhere!

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[Clive Mortimore]

Why no K2?

1, not obscure enough

2, not popular enough

3, no preserved example to measure

4, no clue

 

Now if the rumour mill gets to work saying a leading manufacturer is going to make one, at least two will announce they intend to do so.

 

Anyhow wot about a K4?

[great northern]

Its at it again! Now hidden the next folder, but this time I wasn't fooled. Here comes the Glasgow, Mons Meg on its way home, and shortly to be going on shed.

 

[45568]

16 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Why no K2?

1, not obscure enough

2, not popular enough

3, no preserved example to measure

4, no clue

 

Now if the rumour mill gets to work saying a leading manufacturer is going to make one, at least two will announce they intend to do so.

 

Anyhow wot about a K4?

A very good question indeed Mr. Mortimore!

 I have to say, observing from a good distance, that larger steam prototypes seem to be off the radar of most 4mm RTR manufacturers. Hornby aside, with their endless supply of LNER pacifics, most of the others seem to be concentrating on smaller steam locomotives, Industrials, Y7, E1 and 15xx come to mind. Accurascale are giving us a 'Manor', which unfortunately duplicates the Dapol model. Dapol in turn promise a 28/38xx, which duplicates the Hornby model.  I agree with the desire for a K2, K4, E4, J17/9/20 and B16, but there does seem little chance at the moment. Possibly the strangest decision to me is Rapido opting for the HR Jones Goods as a first venture into Scottish RTR. I would have thought the 'Glen' would have been the more obvious choice, wider distribution, longer life in more liveries, but 'twas not to be! For GWR followers the 10xx County and 29xx Saint seem obvious targets but again, no discernable rumours.

 Meanwhile other new manufacturers seem hell-bent on duplicating diesel models that are only a few years old. Not my area of expertise but were the existing models of Class 50,56,60 and 66 all that bad? This does not mean I am anti-diesel, I have supped long at the well of obscure prototypes and pilot scheme designs, but does it indicate that manufacturers see the moving on from the traditional older steam/transition era railway modeller to a younger market more lucrative? In addition, I see that Diesel models are much more attractive for all the DCC bells and whistles, sound, lights etc. which younger more technology savvy people appreciate.

 As I say, this is not meant to be contentious, or the start of a wishlist, just the thoughts of an older modeller on a damp Sunday afternoon in the Antipodes!

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[Tony Wright]

On 23/06/2023 at 11:18, great northern said:

I agree, and I am surprised that there is still no sign of a RTR model. I don't want to get embroiled in the "build a kit" debate, though even TW said he struggled to put one together as per instructions. The argument that they were limited to a relatively small area doesn't hold water  in this case, because of the Scottish connection, and I admit that it does irk me that a class of 75 engines continues to be ignored, while a 2.6.0. of another part of the country is on about its third revamp, and with competitors too. I shall allow my blood pressure to return to normal now.

Good morning Gilbert,

 

I'm glad the smokebox 'plate arrived (safely?). Not bad - eight days, for a First Class-stamped envelope to travel less than an hour's drive! 

 

You mention my struggling to build a London Road K2 'as per the instructions'. It's because I chucked the instructions away that I was able to build it (mechanically), but not before I'd made new coupling rods because the originals didn't match the bearings in the frames! The late designer of the kit told me that had I built it as prescribed (with compensation), the discrepancy wouldn't have mattered.

 

I don't think you'll get embroiled in the 'build a kit' debate, because the only way to acquire a 4mm K2 is to build a kit for it (or scratch-build it). I assume John Houlden made yours, from a London Road kit?

 

Anyway, out of (possible) interest, here are Bytham's K2s (all built from kits by me). 

 

 

This is a very early Nu-Cast example, built/painted when the kit first appeared (over 40 years ago?), but on a scratch-built chassis - I could never get white metal lumps to work!

 

 

This one is also an early Nu-Cast example.

 

It had been started by Ian Wilson, but he gave up with it decades ago. I dismantled it (he'd glued it together!), then soldered it together, having made a 'proper' set of (brass) frames for it. Based on a prototype shot at Boston, it's one where the Westinghouse equipment had been removed, but a few bits from it were still evident. Geoff Haynes painted it.

 

 

The latest Nu-Cast & Partners K2 is a totally different animal; new masters, new patterns, new moulds and a lovely etched brass set of frames. It's the easiest way of getting a 4mm K2. Geoff Haynes painted it.

 

 

The London Road example, painted by Ian Rathbone.

 

It's seen on the M&GNR bit of LB at an early stage of the layout's construction. 

 

The first two carriages have long-gone!

 

 

It sees use on the main line as well.

 

Will there ever be an RTR K2? There's nothing on the radar as far as I know, but who does know?

 

Finally, I thought B&W images suited the period modelled as most prototype K2 shots I've seen are in this medium.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[great northern]

Back up on to Crescent Bridge now, to see Mons Meg coming to a stand.

and shortly afterwards, Sir Ralph Wedgwood backing on.

 

[thegreenhowards]

9 hours ago, 45568 said:

A very good question indeed Mr. Mortimore!

 I have to say, observing from a good distance, that larger steam prototypes seem to be off the radar of most 4mm RTR manufacturers. Hornby aside, with their endless supply of LNER pacifics, most of the others seem to be concentrating on smaller steam locomotives, Industrials, Y7, E1 and 15xx come to mind. Accurascale are giving us a 'Manor', which unfortunately duplicates the Dapol model. Dapol in turn promise a 28/38xx, which duplicates the Hornby model.  I agree with the desire for a K2, K4, E4, J17/9/20 and B16, but there does seem little chance at the moment. Possibly the strangest decision to me is Rapido opting for the HR Jones Goods as a first venture into Scottish RTR. I would have thought the 'Glen' would have been the more obvious choice, wider distribution, longer life in more liveries, but 'twas not to be! For GWR followers the 10xx County and 29xx Saint seem obvious targets but again, no discernable rumours.

 Meanwhile other new manufacturers seem hell-bent on duplicating diesel models that are only a few years old. Not my area of expertise but were the existing models of Class 50,56,60 and 66 all that bad? This does not mean I am anti-diesel, I have supped long at the well of obscure prototypes and pilot scheme designs, but does it indicate that manufacturers see the moving on from the traditional older steam/transition era railway modeller to a younger market more lucrative? In addition, I see that Diesel models are much more attractive for all the DCC bells and whistles, sound, lights etc. which younger more technology savvy people appreciate.

 As I say, this is not meant to be contentious, or the start of a wishlist, just the thoughts of an older modeller on a damp Sunday afternoon in the Antipodes!

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

For an indication of where the market is going it’s interesting to look at O gauge RTR which has developed from almost nothing in the last 10-15 years. There are far more diesels than steam with most of the main classes now having been produced. In steam, we have a few yucky GWR tanks and not much else! Ellis Clark’s forthcoming Black 5 is likely to be my first steam RTR purchase although I have bought a couple of small tanks to cut up for their chassis!

 

A K2 is a long way off - I’ve bought a Gladiator kit to join my kit mountain!

 

Andy

Edited June 25, 2023 by thegreenhowards

[great northern]

Sir Ralph now attached, and ready to go.

and just getting under way.

Another experiment, I think worthwhile?

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, great northern said:

Another experiment, I think worthwhile?

Anything underneath Crescent Bridge works for me.

[great northern]

Slightly further round the bend, and looks OK, I think. I just have to be very exact with positioning of the loco for shots like this, as a n inch either way can ruin the whole thing.

And now the D16 can move out of its siding, and collect its passengers.

[great northern]

The next afternoon named train is the Talisman, Sir Nigel at the head.

 

and soon encountering the D16, nearly ready to come to a stand.

[HSB]

By coincidence I saw Sir Nigel on Saturday on his way to Kingswear. 😉

 

 

 

[gwrrob]

14 minutes ago, HSB said:

By coincidence I saw Sir Nigel on Saturday on his way to Kingswear. 😉

 

 

 

 

There’s a cracking video of her taken using a drone from the Dawlish beach cam guys online.

[great northern]

On 25/06/2023 at 08:25, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Gilbert,

 

I'm glad the smokebox 'plate arrived (safely?). Not bad - eight days, for a First Class-stamped envelope to travel less than an hour's drive! 

 

You mention my struggling to build a London Road K2 'as per the instructions'. It's because I chucked the instructions away that I was able to build it (mechanically), but not before I'd made new coupling rods because the originals didn't match the bearings in the frames! The late designer of the kit told me that had I built it as prescribed (with compensation), the discrepancy wouldn't have mattered.

 

I don't think you'll get embroiled in the 'build a kit' debate, because the only way to acquire a 4mm K2 is to build a kit for it (or scratch-build it). I assume John Houlden made yours, from a London Road kit?

 

Anyway, out of (possible) interest, here are Bytham's K2s (all built from kits by me). 

 

 

This is a very early Nu-Cast example, built/painted when the kit first appeared (over 40 years ago?), but on a scratch-built chassis - I could never get white metal lumps to work!

 

 

This one is also an early Nu-Cast example.

 

It had been started by Ian Wilson, but he gave up with it decades ago. I dismantled it (he'd glued it together!), then soldered it together, having made a 'proper' set of (brass) frames for it. Based on a prototype shot at Boston, it's one where the Westinghouse equipment had been removed, but a few bits from it were still evident. Geoff Haynes painted it.

 

 

The latest Nu-Cast & Partners K2 is a totally different animal; new masters, new patterns, new moulds and a lovely etched brass set of frames. It's the easiest way of getting a 4mm K2. Geoff Haynes painted it.

 

 

The London Road example, painted by Ian Rathbone.

 

It's seen on the M&GNR bit of LB at an early stage of the layout's construction. 

 

The first two carriages have long-gone!

 

 

It sees use on the main line as well.

 

Will there ever be an RTR K2? There's nothing on the radar as far as I know, but who does know?

 

Finally, I thought B&W images suited the period modelled as most prototype K2 shots I've seen are in this medium.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Yes Tony, the plate is safe, and John did indeed build my K2 from the London Road kit. I'd like another one, but I don't think it is going to happen.

[Bloodnok]

On 25/06/2023 at 05:57, 45568 said:

Meanwhile other new manufacturers seem hell-bent on duplicating diesel models that are only a few years old. Not my area of expertise but were the existing models of Class 50,56,60 and 66 all that bad?

 

The class 50 moodel is 20 years old, the next two at least 17 years old as I have one of each that I bought second hand ... in 2006. While they were definitely good models for the time, standards have moved on, and 8 pin sockets with basic head/tail lights aren't what the market is after any more.
Combine that with a 2023 RRP over 4 times the launch RRP with little change in specification since, and other manufacturers have decided these classes are opportunities to target with better models at cheaper prices.

For the 66, that "new" model is actually not new tooling -- they bought the tooling for a well-received earlier model from someone else and gave it a warm-over with parts-bin electronics.
 

On 25/06/2023 at 05:57, 45568 said:

This does not mean I am anti-diesel, I have supped long at the well of obscure prototypes and pilot scheme designs, but does it indicate that manufacturers see the moving on from the traditional older steam/transition era railway modeller to a younger market more lucrative?

I can understand why the transition era might be seen as "traditional" ... but it's really not.

Before it was "traditional" to model the mid 1960s, it was "traditional" to model the early to mid 1950s. Before that, it was "traditional" to model the big four.

What is the popular era appears determined by a combination of what today's middle-aged hobby returnees (with disposable income) saw on the real railway when they were kids and what they had on their train sets when they were kids. In practice, it's roughly 30-40 years ago, but tends to stick on the early side of any specific railway related traumatic events. It appears things like grouping, nationalisation (and likely also privatisation) don't tend to count the way you'd think they would, but things like war, the Beeching axe, and the death of steam certainly did.

The death of steam was such a strong event it has caused the "popular era" to stick in that place for a much longer time than previous events, which is why there's a perception that the early 1960s is the "traditional" period. But we are far enough past that we are reverting back to the 30-40 year rule now. There is a lot of pent up demand for era 7 and 8 models, stretching from the mid 1970s to the early 1990s, and we are currently seeing companies deliver to this market. It won't stay here forever -- it's going to keep moving forward, and we'll see it move on soon. I'm not sure what the next traumatic event in railway history will be that will cause a sticking point. End of loco hauled passenger trains perhaps? That has potential...

[great northern]

An eventful day coming up. The gang are here later, Steve is bringing a really lovely goodie for me, and it is Clive's birthday, and he is bringing a cake. Phil is bringing himself, which is quite enough.

 

More of Sir Nigel's slow progress through the signal forest.

 

 

[great northern]

We've had a lovely day, chatting about everything and nothing, and eating Clive's birthday cake. The day started very auspiciously when Steve handed over my goodie, which I have to say I feel is one of the best ever.  I really am delighted with this lovely coach. Some time back I took up Worsley Works offer to do items from their 3mm range in 4mm, and I ordered a few. Then Covid intervened, and there was a wait for a while, but eventually we got there, and off went several sides to Steve@31A. This is the first to be completed.

 

 

Gresley "shortie" SK to Dia 141. Although these were initially for the GE section, by my period they had spread far and wide, and the 1958 survey shows six of them working between KX and PN in a single week, including this one. It just looks beautifully proportioned to me, and the livery really suits it. I also agree with Steve that the all door side is the better one, but not by much.

 

I'll leave Steve to add details as to how he did it, and with what materials. I'll just keep gazing at it, and you can be sure it will be making many trips on PN.

 

[great northern]

21 hours ago, Bloodnok said:

 

The class 50 moodel is 20 years old, the next two at least 17 years old as I have one of each that I bought second hand ... in 2006. While they were definitely good models for the time, standards have moved on, and 8 pin sockets with basic head/tail lights aren't what the market is after any more.
Combine that with a 2023 RRP over 4 times the launch RRP with little change in specification since, and other manufacturers have decided these classes are opportunities to target with better models at cheaper prices.

For the 66, that "new" model is actually not new tooling -- they bought the tooling for a well-received earlier model from someone else and gave it a warm-over with parts-bin electronics.
 

I can understand why the transition era might be seen as "traditional" ... but it's really not.

Before it was "traditional" to model the mid 1960s, it was "traditional" to model the early to mid 1950s. Before that, it was "traditional" to model the big four.

What is the popular era appears determined by a combination of what today's middle-aged hobby returnees (with disposable income) saw on the real railway when they were kids and what they had on their train sets when they were kids. In practice, it's roughly 30-40 years ago, but tends to stick on the early side of any specific railway related traumatic events. It appears things like grouping, nationalisation (and likely also privatisation) don't tend to count the way you'd think they would, but things like war, the Beeching axe, and the death of steam certainly did.

The death of steam was such a strong event it has caused the "popular era" to stick in that place for a much longer time than previous events, which is why there's a perception that the early 1960s is the "traditional" period. But we are far enough past that we are reverting back to the 30-40 year rule now. There is a lot of pent up demand for era 7 and 8 models, stretching from the mid 1970s to the early 1990s, and we are currently seeing companies deliver to this market. It won't stay here forever -- it's going to keep moving forward, and we'll see it move on soon. I'm not sure what the next traumatic event in railway history will be that will cause a sticking point. End of loco hauled passenger trains perhaps? That has potential...

I think you are spot on here. The last few years of steam did indeed spend an extended period as top of the pops, and even now won't go away. However, the numbers for whom it was a time they actually witnessed is inevitably reducing, and will continue to do so. I gave some thought to the K2 class when it was discussed earlier, and wondered how many people are still around who actually saw one. I know I had a footplate ride on one with my driver uncle when I was about six years old, but I wouldn't have had a clue what class it was then.  That detail came, I think when I was about 10, that's 1955. Six or seven years later they were all gone. On that basis, you'd have to be over 70 now to have seen one.

[31A]

14 minutes ago, great northern said:

I'll leave Steve to add details as to how he did it, and with what materials. I'll just keep gazing at it, and you can be sure it will be making many trips on PN.

 

Thank you for those kind words Gilbert!  I'm glad you like it.  I must admit I'm quite pleased with it myself!  Our original plan was that I would make two at the same time, one for Peterborough North and one for use on my layout, Finsbury Square, but construction of mine fell behind as I ran out of certain components.  However it is now also nearing completion.

 

As Gilbert said, the sides are from Worsley Works, and very good.  I think they capture the proportions of the coaches very well, and the beading etc. is neatly etched.  The sides are in a similar format to the MJT kits, in that each lower panel is a separate piece which has to be soldered into place individually.  The droplight frames and ventilator hoods are also separate pieces.  Apart from the sides, I used Comet components for the underframe, ends and roof, and MJT bogies.   The gangways are also MJT, as are the door handles.

 

The main reason for using MJT bogies was that we wanted to try out their Part No. 2580 "NEM 362 Coupling Box and Tongue for Rigid Bogie" to mount the Hunt magnetic couplings.  The idea with this component is that you have to shorten it to suit the coach you're building, which I did do, basing the position of the pocket in relation to the bogies on the location of the couplings on a Hornby Gresley coach.  Only when I'd finished did I realise the flaw in this, in that the bogies on these 52' 6" coaches are positioned further closer to the coach ends than the bogies on the 61' 6" coaches!  Consequently, the coupling pocket is also further outboard than it really ought to be.  However we fitted the Ultra Close Coupling Hunt Couplings from West Hill Wagon Works, and with these it seems to couple up well to other coaches.

 

Painting is with Halfords Etch Primer, Red Oxide Primer and then Ford Burgundy Red, and the lining transfers are from Fox.  I usually use HMRS Methfix transfers for insignia, but have now run out of capital Es.  So this time, I used an old sheet of Pressfix instead; I find it more difficult to adjust the position of these before they 'stick' so the numbers aren't quite as well aligned as I'd like, but hopefully not too apparent unless you cruelly enlarge the photo!

 

All in all an interesting build, which has resulted in something a little bit different for both Gilbert and myself.

[great northern]

Never miss a chance to photograph a D16. They may all be gone soon.

It soon had to be on its way though, and that allowed another 9F to bring through yet more coal for Ferme Park.

 

 

[great northern]

Just some more 9F action this morning.