BR Mark 1 Suburban Coaches in the 60’s

[Fredo]

Hi, following the Accurascale announcement, does anyone know if there were any Mark 1 Suburban Coaches carrying unlined BR Maroon and Crimson liveries in the 60’s?

Thanks Fred

[bécasse]

Probably some just at the beginning of the decade when there would have still been vehicles around that hadn't been repainted or revarnished since unlined crimson and then unlined maroon were the norm. They would quickly have become lined maroon (unless they were in store) since crimson vehicles would have been repainted lined maroon and unlined maroon vehicles would have had lining added when they were revarnished.

[roythebus1]

There was a set of lined maroon suburbans on the southern for a while, I used to see it on the Kenny Belle for a couple of months. It made a change from the usual green sets that appeared.

[ISW]

On 23/02/2024 at 09:34, Fredo said:

Hi, following the Accurascale announcement, does anyone know if there were any Mark 1 Suburban Coaches carrying unlined BR Maroon and Crimson liveries in the 60’s?

Thanks Fred

Kings Cross suburban lines? By the time I was trainspotting in the early 1970s, these were all-over blue, but;

Above extracted from https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/231-lner-er-suburban-traffic-king-s-cross-inner-surburban

 

Ian

 

[bécasse]

That Peter Groom photo definitely dates from somewhen during the year 1960.

[Wickham Green too]

You can only build a model of that train if you do the Gresley artic set on the other line too !

[Fredo]

Thanks for the replies.

Does anyone know if mixed lined and unlined maroon sets operated on the London Midland Region?
Thanks Fred

[ISW]

2 hours ago, Fredo said:

Thanks for the replies.

Does anyone know if mixed lined and unlined maroon sets operated on the London Midland Region?
Thanks Fred

Fred,

 

Euston suburban lines? By the time I was trainspotting in the early 1970s, these were all-over blue Class 501s, but take a look at https://www.derbysulzers.com/willesden.html. There are a few photos showing Class 24s on Euston Suburban services in the 1960 with suitable rolling stock.

 

Ian

[bécasse]

The same livery considerations would apply wherever the MkI suburban stock was being used (except, of course, on the Southern Region where unlined green was adopted from 1956 but where such stock was rare anyway).

 

A greater question is the extent to which MkI suburban stock was in use on the London Midland Region. There was certainly some on the lines out of St.Pancras but some, at least, of these were short "metro gauge" vehicles which could work through the Widened Lines to Moorgate. My recollection of outer-suburban services out of Euston is that ex-LMS suburban vehicles continued to be used until replaced with AM10s on electrification in 1966 - although the same livery considerations would apply to the ex-LMS stock, and my recollections could be wrong anyway.

[Cwmtwrch]

A lot of non-corridor coaches disappeared from the late 1950s onwards, due to cessation of services post-Beeching or replacement by DMUs and EMUs. How many actually survived long enough to be repainted in lined maroon is a good question; a lot did not.

[Wickham Green too]

4 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

A lot of non-corridor coaches disappeared from the late 1950s onwards, due to cessation of services post-Beeching or replacement by DMUs and EMUs. ...

Ah - how things had changed ........ the Southern Railway would have used them to MAKE EMUs rather than replace them !

[keefer]

Looking for something else, found an image of SR coach in lined maroon, August 1964

N Class 31401 at Farnborough, Aug '64 by David Christie on Flickr

 

Another thing to watch for is 57' versus 64' stock - 64' ones had one more compartment

Only certain coach types were 64' (S/BS?) and were less numerous (mainly SR/WR?)

Edited February 26 by keefer

[The Johnster]

I think I am correct in saying that only the GWR designed a 64’ non-gangwayed ‘suburban’ compartment coach, the Swindon-built Hawksworth all-third introduced in Western Region days.  AFAIK this coach shared underframe and bogies with Hawksworth’s gangwayed stock, but did not have the bow ends.  This may throw some light on the WR’s requirement for 64’ non-ganwayed mk1s, which were allox London area and were produced as Brake Seconds and Seconds, but not apoarently, TTBOMK, marshalled into sets, rather being mixed in with the Collett sets as strengtheners, as were the Hawksworths.  
 

 

Some LMR 57’ mk1 suburbans were transferred to the WR in the late 50s, 1958 ISTR, all seconds with no brakes, and dispersed over the region as strengtheners.  Tondu, my area of interest of course, had at least one, in lined maroon by 1960.  I do not know its running number, so for now will buy a 57’ coach and replace the prefix with a W pending better information.  Tondu had at least one Hawksworth suburban as well, but I am not sure of dates; I suspect later than my 1958 cut-off. This could be made up from Comet sides and a Hornby underframe.  TTBOMK no mk1 suburban brakes ran in South Wales.  

[Wickham Green too]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I think I am correct in saying that only the GWR designed a 64’ non-gangwayed ‘suburban’ compartment coach, ...

The Southern ones - of which there were hundreds - were only 62' ............................ electrically powered, of course.

[JohnR]

15 hours ago, keefer said:

Looking for something else, found an image of SR coach in lined maroon, August 1964

N Class 31401 at Farnborough, Aug '64 by David Christie on Flickr

 

Another thing to watch for is 57' versus 64' stock - 64' ones had one more compartment

Only certain coach types were 64' (S/BS?) and were less numerous (mainly SR/WR?)

 

I think that must be one of the Seconds the Southern acquired from the Western Region in 1964 to strengthen the Basingstoke-Waterloo peak services. They were the only ones on the SR that were in lined Maroon (the Southern having painted all of its own allocation into Green in 1959/60)

[keefer]

Thanks @JohnR for that. I suspected the SR's stock would be pretty much all green, so thought this must be a bit of a rarity.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, keefer said:

... I suspected the SR's stock would be pretty much all green, ...

There could have been 'carmine' survivors but the Southern were pretty quick to return to green when permitted - at the time lined maroon appeared elsewhere.

[JohnR]

2 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

There could have been 'carmine' survivors but the Southern were pretty quick to return to green when permitted - at the time lined maroon appeared elsewhere.

 

All the Southern ones were painted into Green. The only Southern Region ones that were withdrawn not in Green were the ex-WR ones in lined Maroon (not Crimson Lake).

[Cwmtwrch]

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I think I am correct in saying that only the GWR designed a 64’ non-gangwayed ‘suburban’ compartment coach, the Swindon-built Hawksworth all-third introduced in Western Region days.

C83 all third, D132 brake third, officially shown as 63ft ¾in x 8ft 11ins.

 

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Some LMR 57’ mk1 suburbans were transferred to the WR in the late 50s, 1958 ISTR, all seconds with no brakes, and dispersed over the region as strengtheners.

Fair exchange, I suppose, as Swindon built 35 E156 composites for the LMR in early 1953.

 

 

[New Haven Neil]

54 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

All the Southern ones were painted into Green. The only Southern Region ones that were withdrawn not in Green were the ex-WR ones in lined Maroon (not Crimson Lake).

 

Presumably this is one - no idea where this clip from a bigger image came from in my 'interesting things' box so apologies re copyright, will remove if requested.

 

The green coach is a 64 footer, the maroon, who knows!

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

Judging by disposition of the undergubbins I'd guess that's the same length.

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

There could have been 'carmine' survivors but the Southern were pretty quick to return to green when permitted - at the time lined maroon appeared elsewhere.

 

The Southern began to paint passenger stock in malachite green in 1956, at the same time as the WR began painting stock for some named expresses in a version of chocolate and cream.  Other signs of regional autonomy at this time included the painting in Crimson Lake of some LMR Princess Royal and Coronation pacifics and the appearance of Liverpool St. pilots in GER blue and York & Newcastle J72 pilots in NER green liveries.  The coach livery was changed from carmine/cream to lined maroon for gangwayed stock other than the above-mentioned, and from unlined carmine to unlined maroon for non-ganwayed and some NPCCS; this is relevant to the mk1 suburbans.

 

A decision to paint all passenger stock in lined maroon including non-gangwayed and NPCCS (except wooden bodied) was implemented in 1959, the last change until the introduction of blue livery in 1966.  The Southern continued to paint all its passenger stock in unlined malachite green.  So, by the mid 60s, there were probably no mk1 suburbans left in service in unlined carmine, indeed many had been withdrawn only a few years after being built as their work was assumed by dmus, and the majority were in lined maroon livery with a dwindling number of unlined maroon survivors.  There were a few Southern Region 64footers in malachite green, but transfers from other regions tended to be in lined maroon.

 

Post 1966, the remaining mk1 suburbans on the ER KX/Moorgate services were given plain rail blue livery.  As a rough guide, coaches were repainted every seven years, so the last carmines, painted in early 1956, should have disappeared by 1963, possibly sooner than that as withdrawal of non-gangwayed stock replaced by new dmus was in full swing in the early 60s.

 

My last experience of them on the WR was Whitsun Bank Holiday 1964, a Barry Island excursion from Cardiff Queen Street, a mix of Hawksworths and mk1s, a 5-coach spare Valleys set hauled by a 5101, 4179 from Radyr IIRC and fairly clean, in excellent fettle.  A lively run, non-stop from Cardiff General, Johnster's 12-year-old heat out of the window all the way in both directions, grinning ear-to-ear from the leading compartment, easy 50mph between Dinas Powis and Cadoxton, glory days.  It may well have been the final outing for this set, which did not last much longer; a similar jaunt on the August Monday was a pair of 116s and Queen Street carriage sidings were empty and derelict.  It was to be the last time I rode in or out of the bay platform at Queen Street for many years as well...