Dr.Glum Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 This image is part of ECL0005 (in the L&NWR Society on-line archive, the DMS) which may be a candidate for the L&NWRS 2025 Calendar. I have been asked about the first van (which is non-LNWR) - I have no idea! Nos. 2,3 & 7 are obviously LNW D88s. Initially I thought 4 & 6 were Midland 8T & 10Ts, but the framing is wrong AFAIK. Any thoughts? Many thanks. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium magmouse Posted March 11 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 11 Number 4, and just possibly number 6, look like GWR wooden outside-framed covered wagons. Number 4 seems to be lettered with the large GW, which would put it after 1904. Is there a higher-resolution version of the image? A known date for the photo? Nick. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted March 11 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 11 The ventilators look like those of the Caledonian Railway. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 1 hour ago, kevinlms said: The ventilators look like those of the Caledonian Railway. Anyone got a copy of https://lightmoor.co.uk/books/caledonian-railway-wagons-and-non-passenger-coaching-stock/L9747 ? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 The 6th van could be either GWR or GER there is only the axle boxes and buffer beam which is different. The vents on the 1st on ook like Cally ones. Marc 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Glum Posted March 11 Author Share Posted March 11 (edited) I've been shown a page of Caledonian Wagons (author Mike Williams), and I'm now certain van 1 is a D2 meat van. Van 4 has also been suggested to be a GER D15 van, very similar to a wooden Mink. If it's any help, here's a blow-up. Edited March 11 by Dr.Glum 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted March 11 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 11 Replying to the same question on the L&NWR Society Facebook Group, i wondered if No. 4 was Great Northern - thinking the initials looked to be of the enormous height favoured by that company. But have some doubt as GN covered goods wagons of this general type had X-framing rather than single diagonals - also note the diagonals go the other way to No. 6 which is definitely a GW wood mink. No. 5 is a GW 4-plank, with sheet rail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 Later Minks with 'wrong way' diagonals weren't unknown ! 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium magmouse Posted March 11 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 11 I am pretty sure wagon 4 is a GW wooden mink. The left hand edge of the right hand letter slopes slightly relative to the verticals of the framing, suggesting a W not an N: The letters scale correctly to be 25" high, relative to an approximately 6'8" high side, which would be right for a GW mink. Wagon 6 may also be a mink, with reversed diagonals. I have seen only one photo of a GW wagon with diagonals going that way (high at the ends, low in the middle) - on p.117 of Slinn's Great Western Way. All drawings I have seen, and other photos, have diagonals as wagon 4. The arcane matter of the framing diagonals on these covered wagons has been discussed previously: Nick. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 Late to the party, but I agree about the two Minks. The GE vans by Holden were very similar (different length) but the GE didn't, to my knowledge, put the number on the end. I consider myself educated about the Caley van. What type are those roof ventilators? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted March 12 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 12 15 minutes ago, jwealleans said: I consider myself educated about the Caley van. What type are those roof ventilators? Aren't they the sort that infamously appear on the tender in a well-known modellers' drawing of a Highland Clan (or River), faithfully reproduced on many models, though of mysterious function, but all due to there being one of these vans parked behind the tender in an official photo? 1 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 Colour me intrigued..... Scotland is, to paraphrase, a far off place of which I know little. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dave John Posted March 12 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 12 I'd agree, CR Diagram 2 meat van, later planked body style. The trumpet ventilators are a CR thing. There is a detail drawing of them , wagon book p318. As far as I know they were only fitted to CR stock, but as ever any other info would be good. The earlier body style was panelled. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium magmouse Posted March 12 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 12 28 minutes ago, jwealleans said: What type are those roof ventilators? They bear a passing resemblance to the trumpet ventilators on early GWR horse boxes: (excerpt from plate 106 in Jim Russell's GW Miscellany, volume 1). Nick. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 2 hours ago, magmouse said: They bear a passing resemblance to ... ... two-tone locomotive horns ! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium magmouse Posted March 12 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 12 10 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said: ... two-tone locomotive horns ! Don’t do that - you’ll scare the horses. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Glum Posted March 12 Author Share Posted March 12 (edited) So thank you all, Gentlemen, both here in RMweb and on the L&NWRS FB site. The consensus is: 1st Caledonian D2 meat van 2nd LNWR D88 10T 3rd LNWR D88 10T 4th GW wooden Mink pre-1900 5th GW 4 plank open with Williams patent sheet supporter (lying towards us) 6th GW wooden Mink pre-1900 7th LNWR D88 10T The following wagons are all opens, liberally covered with tarpaulins, fading into obscurity with distance. Thank you again. Calendar "Aspects of the Old North-Western" should be on sale from the L&NWRS by June-ish. Edited March 12 by Dr.Glum Typo! 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 An interesting mix but indicative of the fact that before the pooling of wagons goods trains only contained wagons of companies which had a good reason for being in the rake concerned, rather than being like liquorice all-sorts with wagons of many companies being mixed in with wagons of the predominate local company. Mineral trains with typically a much greater proportion of private-owner wagons would have shown greater variety but, I suspect, even there there would have been less ownership variety than the average "old-time' modeller assumes. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted March 13 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 13 17 hours ago, Wickham Green too said: ... two-tone locomotive horns ! But it's not a cattle wagon, or a prize cattle van! 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted March 13 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 13 22 hours ago, Compound2632 said: Aren't they the sort that infamously appear on the tender in a well-known modellers' drawing of a Highland Clan (or River), faithfully reproduced on many models, though of mysterious function, but all due to there being one of these vans parked behind the tender in an official photo? Yes, this was the case and Eddie Bellass explained all this, along with his loco drawing and photos of 'Clan Mackenzie' 14768 and a C.R. horsebox with ventilators of that type. There is also a guards van, behind the tender. Most is opaqued out, but part of the wheels can be seen through the tender wheels. But the photo of 14768 is an official photograph, so that can't be wrong, can it? 😇 Model Railway Constructor 1978 August. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted March 13 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 13 11 hours ago, bécasse said: An interesting mix but indicative of the fact that before the pooling of wagons goods trains only contained wagons of companies which had a good reason for being in the rake concerned, rather than being like liquorice all-sorts with wagons of many companies being mixed in with wagons of the predominate local company. The 'good reason' is not as simple as that, because my understanding is that once a wagon has been emptied of it's load, pre-pooling of certain wagons, it had to be returned to the owning company, by the quickest practical means. However, it does not mean that it had to be returned empty, it could have a suitable return load, either to the owning company OR a location in the general direction. I'm not 100% certain of this, but if a Caledonian wagon outside of any pooling arrangement was in say London, could the LNWR load it with something going to perhaps Preston, empty it there, then send it on it's way to say Carlisle for the Caledonian to receive it back? The system allowed a few days to allow for vehicles to be returned and also there was an average, so if the LNWR had 80 wagons of a particular type and the C.R. 20, as long as the percentages matched, no fees were paid. On a given day when counted, the LNWR could have 70 LNWR and 10 C.R. and if the C.R. had 10 of it's own and 10 LNWR, then no money was due, because they had 10 of each others fleet. I'm expecting to be told I'm wrong here! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted March 13 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 13 28 minutes ago, kevinlms said: I'm expecting to be told I'm wrong here! My understanding is that you are right. In the Midland Railway Study Centre collection, there are Goods Manager's circulars giving instructions for the back-loading of Scottish wagons received at London (and I think places south of Leicester generally) to places on the main line north of Leicester on their way back to Carlisle. What I'm not sure about is how the charging worked - I think it may have been by mileage rather than simply by possession. Stations had to make returns of foreign wagons received, I think weekly, which information went back to the RCH. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 59 minutes ago, kevinlms said: .... could the LNWR load it with something going to perhaps Preston, empty it there, then send it on it's way to say Carlisle for the Caledonian ... I'm wondering if the guy who loaded the wagon would know that Preston was on the way to Scotland .................. plenty of people nowadays wouldn't have a clue ! ☹️ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted March 13 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 13 21 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said: I'm wondering if the guy who loaded the wagon would know that Preston was on the way to Scotland .................. plenty of people nowadays wouldn't have a clue ! ☹️ The guy who loaded the wagon was doing so on the instructions of the goods clerk, whose job it was to know, or at least, to know where to look it up! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forward! Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) Pre- common user my understanding was that the RCH managed two sets of charges for wagons- mileage (the fixed rate for sending a wagon out to another company's system for an agreed period) and demurrage (the penalty the other company would incur for keeping the wagon beyond that period). From a 1930s article Railway Wonders of the World: "Mileage and demurrage charges were at one time raised on wagons, and their covering sheets or tarpaulins. Wagons at the end of a journey were unloaded and sent back empty to the forwarding company - thus causing an enormous amount of unnecessary haulage. A company would frequently return empty wagons to another company at a junction and at the same time receive from that company its own empty wagons." https://www.railwaywondersoftheworld.com/clearing-house.html Edited March 13 by Forward! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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