Standard gauge locos shunting narrow gauge wagons (or vice versa)

[009 micro modeller]

Hello everyone,

 

Finally had some time off work today and yesterday, and although I already have a fairly complicated micro layout project on the go and an exhibition (with a couple of my other micro layouts) to prepare for in mid-April, I’ve also been idly sketching a possible dual gauge micro layout idea, to refer to again at some point in the future (it hopefully might be able to use some stock from the layout I’m currently building, or a previous one).

 

It involves a standard gauge loco shunting narrow gauge wagons; this is something I’m sure I’ve seen a picture of somewhere (and it was a UK industrial prototype as well), but can’t remember where or what the reason for it was. I’ve definitely seen a photo somewhere of a loco with two sets of buffers at different heights, but have a feeling that the lower set may have been for specialist wagons with low buffers (possibly in a steelworks or similar) rather than of a different gauge. I could do it the other way round and have an SG loco shunting NG wagons, which was more common (a few Irish/Northern Irish examples and one or two in Great Britain as well I think) but still quite rare, but would prefer it to be NG wagons with an SG loco as the SG wagons take up more space (there would be an NG loco elsewhere on the layout as well). Ideally I’d prefer British industrial prototype examples but as it’s only a vague idea at the moment I’m open to anything really.

Edited March 19 by 009 micro modeller

[jonhall]

common rail dual or 4 rail dual gauge? - it makes a difference to where your buffers are placed, although I'm only really familiar with Swiss prototypes

 

Jon

[009 micro modeller]

Just now, jonhall said:

common rail dual or 4 rail dual gauge? - it makes a difference to where your buffers are placed, although I'm only really familiar with Swiss prototypes

 

Jon

Either would work for me (it might end up with a converter wagon anyway). Though I’d probably use Tillig track which is common rail.

[Mol_PMB]

The two examples I'm familiar with are:

Derry Harbour Commissioners, Northern Ireland - broad gauge loco equipped for shunting narrow gauge wagons on common rail mixed gauge track.

GFM at Bulle, Switzerland - narrow gauge loco equipped for shunting standard gauge wagons on common rail mixed gauge track. (additionally at the same location, shunting standard gauge wagons on transporters on narrow gauge track)

[009 micro modeller]

55 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Derry Harbour Commissioners, Northern Ireland - broad gauge loco equipped for shunting narrow gauge wagons on common rail mixed gauge track.

Yes, that’s the NI one I knew about. Didn’t realise it worked like that, as for some reason I assumed it was more often a narrow gauge loco shunting the broad gauge wagons, but obviously it would make sense if it worked both ways. I’m sure there was an example in Great Britain though, possibly East Anglia or East Midlands in a factory somewhere.

 

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

GFM at Bulle, Switzerland - narrow gauge loco equipped for shunting standard gauge wagons on common rail mixed gauge track. (additionally at the same location, shunting standard gauge wagons on transporters on narrow gauge track)

The combination of transporters and dual gauge shunting sounds interesting, especially as my current project involves transporter wagons.

 

The layout plan I’ve vaguely sketched out (but not actually tested yet to see how the moves would work) is a sort of inversion of a 3-2-2 Inglenook shunting puzzle, in which wagons (but not locos, unlike the normal Inglenook) move on an on-scene traverser between two positions, one of which has a siding at only one end of the traverser, while the other (in another departure from normal Inglenook practice) has a track leading off each end. I’m still working out the implications of this latter element as it potentially allows the loco on that side to run round the wagons, which may not be desirable. However, for it to plausibly work it seems important to have a reason why the two sides are separate and why each loco must keep to its own side, and part of that is the dual gauge element.

[johnofwessex]

What about these built for the Guinness Brewery in Dublin

 

https://narrowgaugerailwaymuseum.co.uk/modes-images/GS001.jpg

 

They could be loaded onto special wagons which they then drove via gears and used to shunt broad gauge wagons

[009 micro modeller]

2 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

What about these built for the Guinness Brewery in Dublin

 

https://narrowgaugerailwaymuseum.co.uk/modes-images/GS001.jpg

 

They could be loaded onto special wagons which they then drove via gears and used to shunt broad gauge wagons

The link doesn’t seem to be working although I know the locos you mean. I think they’d be hard to do as a model that could work on both gauges though and not quite what I’m looking for in this instance.

[Mol_PMB]

Two of the Derry locos are preserved, the last photo on this link shows the offset ng coupler on the bg loco:

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/1-londonderry-port-and-harbour-commissioners-0-6-0st-robert-stephenson-co-works-no-2738/

 

As for Bulle, there was a branch serving several industry private sidings which was dual gauge, but electrified on low voltage dc so could only be worked by the narrow-gauge electric locos.

Photos here from the polier.ch website.

Here's a photo of part of the branch:

 

The location where the mixed gauge crossed the metre gauge to reach the standard gauge side of the station:

 

One of the metre gauge locos fitted with offset buffers (folded upwards here) for shunting standard gauge wagons on the branch, but seen here shunting standard gauge wagons on metre gauge transporters:

There were at least two electric locos so fitted, the other one was a 4-wheel loco, seen here:

 

Standard gauge wagons on transporters clatter over the mixed gauge diamond crossing:

 

Later the shunting loco buffing arrangements were simplified with wide dumb buffers that could couple to standard gauge wagons offset either horizontally or vertically:

Also there was a change from rollwagen to rolllbocken.

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Two of the Derry locos are preserved, the last photo on this link shows the offset ng coupler on the bg loco:

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/1-londonderry-port-and-harbour-commissioners-0-6-0st-robert-stephenson-co-works-no-2738/

Was there a particular reason with that one that it was used in preference to a narrow gauge loco to shunt NG wagons?

 

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

As for Bulle, there was a branch serving several industry private sidings which was dual gauge, but electrified on low voltage dc so could only be worked by the narrow-gauge electric locos.

Would a non-electric standard gauge loco have been able to work them though?

[Mol_PMB]

10 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Was there a particular reason with that one that it was used in preference to a narrow gauge loco to shunt NG wagons?

 

Would a non-electric standard gauge loco have been able to work them though?

Derry: I don’t think the harbour commissioners had any narrow gauge locos. And most of the CDR and LLSR narrow gauge locos were much too large to work on the tightly-curved dock lines. 
There were two broad gauge and two narrow gauge railways serving Derry, but they were only linked together by the harbour commissioners lines. 
There was one broad gauge and one narrow gauge on each side of the river. Locos on any gauge weren’t permitted on the bridge. It was all rather complex operationally!

 

Bulle: yes, a standard gauge diesel could have been used, and eventually that was what happened. The metre gauge rail and catenary was removed. 

Now of course the entire industrial branch has gone, and the whole area completely redeveloped. 

[009 micro modeller]

4 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Derry: I don’t think the harbour commissioners had any narrow gauge locos. And most of the CDR and LLSR narrow gauge locos were much too large to work on the tightly-curved dock lines. 
There were two broad gauge and two narrow gauge railways serving Derry, but they were only linked together by the harbour commissioners lines. 
There was one broad gauge and one narrow gauge on each side of the river. Locos on any gauge weren’t permitted on the bridge. It was all rather complex operationally!

 

Bulle: yes, a standard gauge diesel could have been used, and eventually that was what happened. The metre gauge rail and catenary was removed. 

Now of course the entire industrial branch has gone, and the whole area completely redeveloped. 

That all sounds very interesting. Potentially my layout plan works well if I have the standard gauge loco banned from the traverser (or unable to fit properly), and an overhead electric NG loco on the other side, only able to run on electrified lines (and I do have such a loco for my current, ongoing project). I’m wondering how plausible the traverser set up would be and why it would be like this (rather than just having one steam or diesel NG loco to shunt everything, as well as going on the traverser itself, for instance). It’s a very long way off actually getting built (if it ever gets built) but still a potentially interesting idea…

[pH]

If you’re prepared to look at US railroads, there were a few with mixed gauge lines. Probably the most well-known of these was the Denver and Rio Grande Western. It had about 30 miles of dual-gauged mainline (3 foot and standard) between Alamosa and Antonito and dual-gauge yards, for example at Salida and Montrose.

 

(If there was more than this, or if I’ve got things wrong, I’m sure JZ will be along to add to or correct what I’ve posted.)

 

Here’s a picture of a standard gauge “idler car” showing the two couplers:

 

https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1389/1333542762_f77c229da0.jpg?v=0
 

and a picture of a narrow-gauge loco hauling standard-gauge cars, showing the use of idler cars:

 

https://railpictures.net/photo/401911/

Edited March 20 by pH

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, pH said:

If you’re prepared to look at US railroads, there were a few with mixed gauge lines. Probably the most well-known of these was the Denver and Rio Grande Western. It had about 30 miles of dual-gauged mainline (3 foot and standard) between Alamosa and Antonito and dual-gauge yards, for example at Salida and Montrose.

 

(If there was more than this, or if I’ve got things wrong, I’m sure JZ will be along to add to or correct what I’ve posted.)

 

Here’s a picture of a standard gauge “idler car” showing the two couplers:

 

https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1389/1333542762_f77c229da0.jpg?v=0
 

and a picture of a narrow-gauge loco hauling standard-gauge cars, showing the use of idler cars:

 

https://railpictures.net/photo/401911/

 

Were there any the other way round there (with a standard gauge loco hauling narrow gauge wagons)?

[pH]

4 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Were there any the other way round there (with a standard gauge loco hauling narrow gauge wagons)?

Standard gauge loco hauling standard and narrow gauge cars in same train:
 

https://ngtrainpics.photoshelter.com/image/I0000cYRxYH0ednE

[pH]

There’s also a picture of a standard gauge train out of Alamosa (standard gauge engine and freight cars) with, on the back, a couple of standard gauge idler cars and a narrow gauge caboose.

[jonhall]

on the RhB a meter gauge barrier wagon, common rail dual 

 

a motor coach on the Aare Seeland at Langenthal - these are use to haul standard gauge wagons on rollbocks, so have unusual asymmetric buffers that seem to offer the option of shunting standard gauge as both common rail and 4 rail, and consequently have two conventional hooks and a narrow gauge type as well, but I might be wrong about that.

 

[009 micro modeller]

59 minutes ago, jonhall said:

on the RhB a meter gauge barrier wagon, common rail dual 

 

a motor coach on the Aare Seeland at Langenthal - these are use to haul standard gauge wagons on rollbocks, so have unusual asymmetric buffers that seem to offer the option of shunting standard gauge as both common rail and 4 rail, and consequently have two conventional hooks and a narrow gauge type as well, but I might be wrong about that.

 

That looks a fairly complicated arrangement.  Is this really an easier option than using a small standard gauge loco in this instance?

[sir douglas]

The Engineer 15-9-1871 Woolwich Arsenal with extra buffers, presumably for SG, though it likely didnt last long as all photos of Woolwich locos dont have them

 

1889 MW works photo without

[jessy1692]

Probably a bit hard to model but the Harrogate Gas Works interchange at Bilton junction on the old Harrogate- Ripon line had an arrangement of pulleys/cables & gravity where the lower level narrow gauge engine could shunt the full/empty standard gauge wagons on the upper level.

 

Not sure exactly how it was done but you could see a big pulley wheel in the coal drop wall.

 

 

James

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

8 hours ago, jessy1692 said:

Probably a bit hard to model but the Harrogate Gas Works interchange at Bilton junction on the old Harrogate- Ripon line had an arrangement of pulleys/cables & gravity where the lower level narrow gauge engine could shunt the full/empty standard gauge wagons on the upper level.

 

Not sure exactly how it was done but you could see a big pulley wheel in the coal drop wall.

 

 

James

 

 

Sounds interesting, though I’m not sure how well that would work on a model, compared with mixed gauge track (though I think the locos for that line are/were available in kit form in 009).

 

In a similar vein, there was another location where the 2ft gauge internal system had no wagons at all, but a Lister loco was used to haul standard gauge coal wagons. I’ll need to check the reference in the Bradford Barton industrial narrow gauge book when I get home, but a quick Google suggests this was J. S. Fry at Somerdale. Again though, this used a cable with the loco running on a parallel track rather than dual gauge track (I’m not sure why but I imagine it would permit a simplified track layout - the loco would be able to go back past the wagon without the use of points for instance). This would similarly be difficult to model, unless you either used manual uncoupling for the cable or did a very simple layout with the loco and wagon simply passing through the scene and the cable attachment taking place off-scene. In this case I’m not sure why a standard gauge loco wasn’t used, possibly there was a weight restriction.

[jessy1692]

13 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Sounds interesting, though I’m not sure how well that would work on a model, compared with mixed gauge track (though I think the locos for that line are/were available in kit form in 009).

 

In a similar vein, there was another location where the 2ft gauge internal system had no wagons at all, but a Lister loco was used to haul standard gauge coal wagons. I’ll need to check the reference in the Bradford Barton industrial narrow gauge book when I get home, but a quick Google suggests this was J. S. Fry at Somerdale. Again though, this used a cable with the loco running on a parallel track rather than dual gauge track (I’m not sure why but I imagine it would permit a simplified track layout - the loco would be able to go back past the wagon without the use of points for instance). This would similarly be difficult to model, unless you either used manual uncoupling for the cable or did a very simple layout with the loco and wagon simply passing through the scene and the cable attachment taking place off-scene. In this case I’m not sure why a standard gauge loco wasn’t used, possibly there was a weight restriction.

The models are certainly available from RT Models as kits to build around a Farish 08, RT markets 3 of them and the 4th is pretty easily built from a Langley WD Hunslet kit.

 

Like you say any model trying to portray rope/cable working is nigh o  impossible, one was I suppose would be to have motorised wagons and with a bit of careful control/dcc you could possibly get an approximation?

 

Dual gauge is certainly best thing to look at, I can't think of an exact example but didn't one of the Welsh quarry interchanges have a bit of dual gauge/cross  shunting.

 

Another interesting option I think was the Leek and Manifold where the NG had wagons that SG wagons could be shunted onto and then taken up the NG line, that would be an interesting operation.

 

Cheers

James

[009 micro modeller]

3 minutes ago, jessy1692 said:

Another interesting option I think was the Leek and Manifold where the NG had wagons that SG wagons could be shunted onto and then taken up the NG line, that would be an interesting operation.

I’m modelling a freelance transporter wagon operation at the moment (this thread - on a bit of a hiatus as work, life, and preparing other layouts for an exhibition is getting in the way, but still an ongoing project). There are a few challenges with getting the transporter wagons to work (depending on what kind of operation you want and what method you use) but it’s going reasonably well so far.

 

8 minutes ago, jessy1692 said:

Like you say any model trying to portray rope/cable working is nigh o  impossible, one was I suppose would be to have motorised wagons and with a bit of careful control/dcc you could possibly get an approximation?

My transporter wagon layout will also use motorised wagons. For the Fry’s operation I mentioned above I wonder if the best way is actually to have a partially rigid tow cable, with the wagon being motorised and pushing an unpowered NG loco. This hopefully mitigates one of the main concerns I would have with modelling that set-up (other than the complete inability to uncouple remotely), which is the small NG Lister loco not being strong enough to haul the wagons, or the strangely-angled forces exerted causing the loco and/or the wagon to derail.

[31A]

The Brohltalbahn in the Rhine Valley (in western Germany) had a dual gauge section at its lower end, and the NG diesel shunters had offset buffers to enable them to shunt SG wagons, as well as a centre coupling for pulling NG stock.

 

https://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/trains/germany21.htm#google_vignette

 

Unusually for these days it still carries freight as well as tourist passenger trains, although I don't think the dual gauge facility is used any longer.

 

[JeremyC]

This video of the Plettenberger kleinbahn shows (at 7m 25s) the narrow gauge locos shunting standard gauge wagons off the transporter wagons. The offset buffers can be seen in various shots earlier in the video.

The shots of trains traversing some of the curves on the street sections and sidings of this line are interesting.

 

Edited March 25 by JeremyC

[BR60103]

I remember seeing ads for a dual gauge coupling casting for North American locos. It was probably in the 1960s. The device had one coupler centred and two offset below it. I think link and pin couplings.  It could be inverted for use on a narrow gauge loco.

 I spent some time trying to puzzle out how it worked.  I don't know how it sorted out when the narrow gauge 3rd rail swished from one side to the other.

No buffers were involved.