Bridge collapse in the US

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Night Train said:

Shaped charges used to cut the steel girders.

I've seen that in the UK on a TV programme.

They are very precise, cuts as clean as a gas axe.

[Sidecar Racer]

 Footage now on line showing the detonation of the girders .

[melmerby]

 

 

[MarkC]

On 09/05/2024 at 22:11, Michael Hodgson said:

Americans really don't rate this Indian crew do they? 

If this clip is true, they're being kept on board whilst the ship is blown up with explosives.  Seems a bit extreme to me.

 

My guess is that the crew don't have US visas.

 

In 2007 my ship was anchored off Corpus Christi, waiting to load. One of our crew, a Sri Lankan, suffered a head injury & had to be medevac'd, unconscious, off the ship. (I cannot speak highly enough of the CSCG & their helicopter crew for their speedy response - outstanding stuff, gents). The crewmember concerned required surgery to remove a clot from his brain; this was successful, BUT he didn't have a US visa, and from the moment that he was removed from the operating theatre, he was then handcuffed to his bed, with an armed US Marshal sat by him. (Said Marshal had to escort him to the bathroom when the lad needed to "go potty", then resecure him). When he was finally declared fit to be repatriated, he was kept handcuffed to a Marshal until the door was about to be closed on the flight taking him out of the USA, & only then was he released.

 

Mark

Edited May 14 by MarkC

[jjb1970]

I had a case during the pandemic where one of the Caribbean islands ended up shaming the US by agreeing to accept a very seriously ill (life threatening) seafarer denied treatment in the US. At that time countries all over the place were denying seafarers access to healthcare despite legal obligations to the contrarary, Europe was no better. China was brutal but in fairness they were honest about it, others were saying all the right words in public but making sure seafarers were treated like parasites. While being reliant on shipping to keep supplies of essential goods moving.

[melmerby]

53 minutes ago, MarkC said:

My guess is that the crew don't have US visas.

 

In 2007 my ship was anchored off Corpus Christi, waiting to load. One of our crew, a Sri Lankan, suffered a head injury & had to be medevac'd, unconscious, off the ship. (I cannot speak highly enough of the CSCG & their helicopter crew for their speedy response - outstanding stuff, gents). The crewmember concerned required surgery to remove a clot from his brain; this was successful, BUT he didn't have a US visa, and from the moment that he was removed from the operating theatre, he was then handcuffed to his bed, with an armed US Marshal sat by him. (Said Marshal had to escort him to the bathroom when the lad needed to "go potty", then resecure him). When he was finally declared fit to be repatriated, he was kept handcuffed to a Marshal until the door was about to be closed on the flight taking him out of the USA, & only then was he released.

 

Mark

I remember the case of an aircraft on it's way to Jamaica/Bermuda/elsewhere from the UK when the plane encountered a problem and had to land in the US

The passengers were disembarked into the airport where those without a US visa were coralled in a lounge with an armed guard until they could be effectively deported to somewhere else.

US immigration and compassion do not go together.

[Sidecar Racer]

57 minutes ago, melmerby said:

US immigration and (compassion) common sense  do not go together.

 

 Fixed that for you .

 

 Just imagine the scene if the plane had crash landed in the countryside but everyone

was able to walk off to safety , there would be armed police rounding people up in handcuffs

and leg shackles in case they tried to make a run for it .

[kevinlms]

18 minutes ago, Sidecar Racer said:

 

 Fixed that for you .

 

 Just imagine the scene if the plane had crash landed in the countryside but everyone

was able to walk off to safety , there would be armed police rounding people up in handcuffs

and leg shackles in case they tried to make a run for it .

If the plane crashed near the US/Canadian border these days, I'm sure the non-US citizens, would be running in a particular direction!

[MarkC]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I had a case during the pandemic where one of the Caribbean islands ended up shaming the US by agreeing to accept a very seriously ill (life threatening) seafarer denied treatment in the US. At that time countries all over the place were denying seafarers access to healthcare despite legal obligations to the contrarary, Europe was no better. China was brutal but in fairness they were honest about it, others were saying all the right words in public but making sure seafarers were treated like parasites. While being reliant on shipping to keep supplies of essential goods moving.

Europe was horrendous - I know of two instances where a crew member had passed away during a voyage, and the next ports called at - seriously major NW European ports - refused to allow the deceased to be landed, so the ships had to depart with their erstwhile colleagues still in bodybags in the ship's chilled stores. Awful for all concerned. Mind you, there was an Italian ship, somewhere in the Far East, which also had a fatality on board - it might even have been the Master - and when the shore authorities refused the landing of the remains, the owners immediately took the ship off hire & sailed back to Italy, landed the body & then returned to the Far East...

 

I know only too well how we seafarers were treated in 2020 - the irony being that we on board the ships were probably the least likely to be infected, yet WE were treated as pariahs, being a clear & present danger to the rest of humanity...

 

...yet we were expected to keep carrying goods to keep the rest of humanity going...

 

Mark

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Sidecar Racer said:

Fixed that for you .

Silly

 

These were people going on holiday who were desperate to get there.

No way were they going to wander off into the US, they wanted a night in an hotel and passage to their destination and their luggage/possessions were still held at the airport.

 

US Immigration & Common sense do not go together

[BR60103]

On our first trip to Britain, the Canadian air traffic controllers were on strike.  We were assured our flight would happen, At departure time, a fleet of busses pulled up to the loading ramps.  We were bussed to the Niagara Falls, U.S. airport. At the border we were given an escort and then we were put into the main waiting room of the airport until our flight was ready.  This was past the airport's normal hours and there were no amenities beyond absolute basics.

The problems were sorted by the time we came back.

 

[Ozexpatriate]

2 hours ago, BR60103 said:

This was past the airport's normal hours and there were no amenities beyond absolute basics.

I don't know if the 'transit lounge' is still a thing for international travellers anywhere.

 

There was a point (1980s) where international passengers changing planes at an intermediate stop were not admitted into the regular part of the airport (or even the gate) and were kept in a holding area that was very spartan. I remember these all over the place - Hawaii, New Zealand and I'm pretty sure in Europe too.

 

Deplaning you would take a different corridor than the passengers entering the country - there was no passport control station, and you never "entered" the country where you landed while waiting for the next leg.

 

Much changed in transiting airports once the Schengen zone was implemented in Europe.

[jjb1970]

The USA is unusual nowadays. In most countries if you transfer then provided you transfer within the international terminal you go through security and a boarding pass check and go into the departure area the same as other passengers. You're not considered to be entering the country and usually there is no immigration requirement (visa etc) other than holding a valid passport and onward ticket. I regularly transfer in Bangkok, Ho Chi Minh City, Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing and Shanghai and none of those places require a visa for transfer passengers and you just go into the general departure area. Ditto Turkiye and India. 

[jjb1970]

17 hours ago, MarkC said:

Europe was horrendous - I know of two instances where a crew member had passed away during a voyage, and the next ports called at - seriously major NW European ports - refused to allow the deceased to be landed, so the ships had to depart with their erstwhile colleagues still in bodybags in the ship's chilled stores. Awful for all concerned. Mind you, there was an Italian ship, somewhere in the Far East, which also had a fatality on board - it might even have been the Master - and when the shore authorities refused the landing of the remains, the owners immediately took the ship off hire & sailed back to Italy, landed the body & then returned to the Far East...

 

I know only too well how we seafarers were treated in 2020 - the irony being that we on board the ships were probably the least likely to be infected, yet WE were treated as pariahs, being a clear & present danger to the rest of humanity...

 

...yet we were expected to keep carrying goods to keep the rest of humanity going...

 

Mark

 

There were numerous such cases. For a few months my job changed to basically trying to figure out how to cope with government restrictions. Some governments were basically making it impossible to get surveys done then getting heavy handed about deferred surveys. Seafarer welfare received negligible attention from most governments despite a lot of pontificating in public. The various IMO crew change procedures and guidelines were drafted by industry and agreed at IMO then promptly ignored by many member States.

 

The whole saga revealed something rotten. I would like to blame an inability to respond to exceptional circumstances and there was undoubtedly a lot of that but there was also a lot of deliberate decision making to throw seafarers under the bus and rules for thee but not for me. It altered my opinion of quite a few governments for the worse. Others struggled to cope but at least made an effort. Oddly (or perhaps not) the governments that impressed me by at least making an effort in many cases were countries most would give much thought to. Europe was awful.

[J. S. Bach]

8 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 ...snip...  the governments that impressed me by at least making an effort in many cases were countries most would give much thought to. Europe was awful.

Did you leave the word "not" out from between the "would" and "give"? It really does make much sense to me without the "not".

[jjb1970]

7 hours ago, J. S. Bach said:

Did you leave the word "not" out from between the "would" and "give"? It really does make much sense to me without the "not".

 

Apologies, indeed, my scatter brain strikes again🤪

 

One of the things that I had to laugh at because it was the only reaction was more than one IMO member State ranting that their own seafarers were denied access to healthcare, could not crew change etc whilst simultaneously rationalizing why they denied seafarers access to the same things in their own ports. 

 

Another thing I observed which was frankly disgusting was abuse of diplomatic status, perhaps the exemplar of the rules for thee but not for me approach to life.

[pH]

I heard a news report this evening that the FBI have taken away the crew members’ cell phones. They have been given others as replacements, but no data was copied over to the new phones, so contact information, family photos etc. have been lost, at least temporarily.

[MarkC]

2 hours ago, pH said:

I heard a news report this evening that the FBI have taken away the crew members’ cell phones. They have been given others as replacements, but no data was copied over to the new phones, so contact information, family photos etc. have been lost, at least temporarily.

It's been reported elsewhere that the replacements are simple cellphones, aka "bricks". Phone & text only...

 

Mark

[Oldddudders]

I suppose these luckless seafarers are regarded as accessories to a ‘crime’ of ultra-high profile and public visibility, despite their actually having limited input to the ship’s fitness to put to sea, still less the decision to do so. But inhumanity is the only description of their treatment.

[F-UnitMad]

16 hours ago, J. S. Bach said:

Did you leave the word "not" out from between the "would" and "give"? It really does make much sense to me without the "not".

Did you leave the word "not" out from between the "does" and "make"? It really does not make much sense to me without the "not". 🤔

 

Sorry, someone had to do it..... 😉😉😂😂😂

[jjb1970]

5 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

I suppose these luckless seafarers are regarded as accessories to a ‘crime’ of ultra-high profile and public visibility, despite their actually having limited input to the ship’s fitness to put to sea, still less the decision to do so. But inhumanity is the only description of their treatment.

 

Unfortunately it'd be more surprising if this wasn't the case. Blame the crew is the standard response. To be clear, in some cases it is a fair assignment of responsibility, but there's plenty of cases where it is unwarranted. However, the crew generally make good scapegoats.

 

Take a look at the Prestige, ABS classed her despite structural issues and Spain denied the ship safe refuge and pushed her out to sea where she broke up and promptly caused a horrific oil spill. So naturally the Spanish blamed the master and convicted him. Then the EU went to IMO to lecture the rest of the world on why they needed to offer safe refuge to ships in distress. As clown shows go that one was right up there.

[MarkC]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

 

Unfortunately it'd be more surprising if this wasn't the case. Blame the crew is the standard response. To be clear, in some cases it is a fair assignment of responsibility, but there's plenty of cases where it is unwarranted. However, the crew generally make good scapegoats.

 

Take a look at the Prestige, ABS classed her despite structural issues and Spain denied the ship safe refuge and pushed her out to sea where she broke up and promptly caused a horrific oil spill. So naturally the Spanish blamed the master and convicted him. Then the EU went to IMO to lecture the rest of the world on why they needed to offer safe refuge to ships in distress. As clown shows go that one was right up there.

I was caught up in the aftermath of Prestige. My ship, 20 years old at the time, was employed on a time charter carrying ammonia (yuk...) from Annaba in Algeria to Castillon & Tarragona in Spain. We were getting a lot of grief from the Spanish authorities, who were trying to find fault with us so that we could be banned from Spanish waters - they didn't want any tanker over 15 years old in their ports. It got so bad that we had to get Flag State (Cayman Islands in this case) Inspectors on board to give us an inspection & audit, which we passed with flying colours. Then, there was a tragic accident off Algeciras involving a Spanish flag bunker tanker, which sprung a leak & capsized, sadly with loss of life. The age of this vessel? Over 40 years old. The Spanish campaign suddenly stopped...

 

Mark

[jjb1970]

Spain is notorious for stuff like that.

 

One of the problems with PSC is that the various MoUs have requirements for minimum number of inspections in each reporting period and in most cases have number of inspections as an internal KPI. In many cases resources are pretty thin so the natural result is that despite the theory of targeted inspections they go for easy jobs where they can be in, out and on to the next one. They will go for the really bad ones but try and avoid those that are bad but unlikely to be an immediate disaster risk (well, not until they're someone else's problem) as they don't want to get bogged down in lengthy inspections.  Which is back to front really. In fairness the PSC people hate it but in private they're quite candid about it all. The PSC MoUs are more interested in number of inspections than whether the inspections carried out are useful. Another example of how performance metrics drive behaviour.

[jjb1970]

Class surveys are no better, the surveyors have so much paperwork to check and demands to complete surveys that by the time they've finished in the Chief Engineers office there's not much time to do real survey stuff.

 

[pH]

2 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

Another example of how performance metrics drive behaviour.

OT - That would be a major topic by itself!