Single line working through platforms

[PortLineParker]

Hi all,

 

Just a quick one; picture a hypothetical section of single track with a 2 platform station along its length. The line passes through the station and a loop is located on the Down side, something like below:

 

If a through train was approaching the station from the left and both lines were clear, would the train still pass into the left hand track to always be on the left hand side or would the through line be set? I was wondering as on the S&D Henstridge was one such station among a few and with trains such as the Pines Express passing through, would they have been given a straight run through or would they have had to slow to negotiate the points at either end of the loop? It sounds silly now I've typed it out but I've been thinking about it for a while and I wonder if anyone knew of any concrete practice or first hand knowledge?

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[phil_sutters]

My recollection is that Henstridge did not have a loop, although Stalbridge did. I suspect that in reality the entrance and exit of the loop were on a far more gradual curve than your sketch shows and many not have presented such a need for slowing, but I am sure there will be someone, probably from the signalling fraternity, who can give a more helpful answer.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, PortLineParker said:

Hi all,

 

Just a quick one; picture a hypothetical section of single track with a 2 platform station along its length. The line passes through the station and a loop is located on the Down side, something like below:

 

If a through train was approaching the station from the left and both lines were clear, would the train still pass into the left hand track to always be on the left hand side or would the through line be set? I was wondering as on the S&D Henstridge was one such station among a few and with trains such as the Pines Express passing through, would they have been given a straight run through or would they have had to slow to negotiate the points at either end of the loop? It sounds silly now I've typed it out but I've been thinking about it for a while and I wonder if anyone knew of any concrete practice or first hand knowledge?

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

At stations with that type of layout it was usual that they were signalled so that train always took the left hand track, at least when the signal box was open.

 

However some stations had a signal box could switch out of circuit at night.  In order to close the box for the night, there wa a special closing procedure which required the token for the sections either side to be at one station. a King lever was pulled to alter the interlocking enabling the route to be set for stright through running, and then signals could be cleared in both directions (against each other).  Through working then required the use of a "long section" token, with additional instruments provided at the boxes on either side.  The tokens used for long and short section working would only fit in their respective insturments.  To reopen the box next morning, the long section staff would be returned before the King lever could be put back and short section instruments reinstated iinto operation. 

 

Also the Home Signal on the left hand side in your diagram would be a bracket signal, since it would have to indicate which platform you were routed into whereas the corresponding signal on the right would still be a simple arm as the same platform was used whether short or lomg section staffs were in use.

 

In Ireland practice was a little different, and it was more common to allow trains to be routed into either platform, so that the platform adjacent to the main building would be used in both directions when there was no train to cross.

[Michael Hodgson]

Signal box diagram for Henstridge shows it without a loop

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/srx/R578.htm

 

Stalbridge did have such a loop, but as it has a level crossing it couldn't be left unmanned overnight as somebody would need to work the gates and they wouldn't have been able to close it to do long section working

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/srx/R366.htm

 

Highley Station (Severn Valley) has a loop but only one platform. so all trains use the main line.

https://www.svrwiki.com/Highley_signal_box#/media/File:HYDiagram.jpg

It is possible for a passenger train to cross a goods train here, but the goods train has to be shunted into the loop.  It is not permitted to cross passenger train in this way.

[Wheatley]

The Port Road from Dumfries to Stranraer (coincidence?) was signalled as Michael describes. When the intermediate boxes were open trains used the left hand side of the loop, but  when long section working was in use they all used one side with signals for both directions pulled off. There were no bracket signals though, the same signal arm served for both sides of the loop in the 'wrong' direction, the driver being expected to know which side they would be using by which tablet was held. 

 

The loops were originally laid out to give trains going uphill the straight road, during the war most (all ?) of the loops were lengthened and long 'Y" points laid to allow higher speed running in both directions. 

[Hal Nail]

As others have said it depends on the individual signalling set up. Until recently Medstead, which is a passing loop on a single line, was only signalled for down trains to use the left hand loop platform. Whether that was the case pre preservation I don't know but all the photos I can recall show diverted expresses going towards Winchester, using the down loop platform rather than running straight through. Although the East end shown involves a bit of curve either way, at the West end a down train needs to cross over two points whereas the up trains have a straight run.

 

 

Edited April 9 by Hal Nail

[Kris]

I've just spent a week at Harlech (the station is just as your plan) and spent a while watching the patterns of the trains using the station. Down trains and up trains always used the same platform even if there was no other train due. I suspect that this makes it easier for passengers to know where they need to be. 

[Edwin_m]

34 minutes ago, Kris said:

I've just spent a week at Harlech (the station is just as your plan) and spent a while watching the patterns of the trains using the station. Down trains and up trains always used the same platform even if there was no other train due. I suspect that this makes it easier for passengers to know where they need to be. 

Harlech is part of the Cambrian ETCS area with no signals and much more flexibility to send trains in either direction on any track without the cost of extra signalling (but still the risk of a train being unexpectedly at the opposite platform if service disruption creates a need for an unscheduled crossing move). 

 

With older signalling technologies, bi-directional running through a loop creates extra complication and probably needs extra signals, so the extra cost would only be agreed if there was a good reason.  In the cases described above there is a benefit in being able to switch the box out without non-stopping trains having to slow down, or in only needing one platform for a lightly-used station.  

[Hal Nail]

Thinking about it, Bentley (Hants) is like this. The station building and car park are on the up side, the down is just a passing loop and footpath access only. Down trains regularly use either platform but I've never seen an up train cross over on to the down side. Apart from a breakdown in the up platform there wouldn't be much point but I don't know if it is technically possible under the current signalling.

[big jim]

45 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

Harlech is part of the Cambrian ETCS area with no signals and much more flexibility to send trains in either direction on any track without the cost of extra signalling

Newtown is an example where the flexibility comes in handy under ertms, if your heading toward Machynlleth the line through the down platform is 15mph in and out at the points whereas the line toward the up, wrong direction platform is 40mph as it’s the ‘straight on’ side of the pointwork, I used to regularly run wrong direction through there with heavy engineers trains to keep them moving at 40mph 

[Michael Hodgson]

Radio Electronic Token Block used on some long remote single lines (like the Highlands) had spring loaded points so that trains always entered the left hand track at crossing places, the radio equipment having superseded physical tokens.  There was no longer a signalman to work the points and signals. Departing trains had to trail through the points set for the other loop, the flanges forcing the points blades over, which returned under spring pressure.  They were provided with indicators (resembling home signals) which confirmed whether the points were correctly set for trains to arrive in their respective loops. 

https://www.railsigns.uk/sect11page3.html    ref 11.48 to 11.51

[Pete the Elaner]

5 hours ago, Kris said:

I've just spent a week at Harlech (the station is just as your plan) and spent a while watching the patterns of the trains using the station. Down trains and up trains always used the same platform even if there was no other train due. I suspect that this makes it easier for passengers to know where they need to be. 

 

I have not been there for years, but I used to live near Kirby Cross, in Essex. Services always used to call at separate platforms there too & the platforms/tracks look ok, so I am sure they still do.

Most smaller stations like this are unmanned so it would be confusing to have most use the 1 platform then another unexpectedly used the other one without staff there to tell passengers to move across before it arrives.

It is also good practise to keep operational lines in regular use where possible.

[Flying Pig]

10 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Signal box diagram for Henstridge shows it without a loop

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/srx/R578.htm

 

Stalbridge did have such a loop, but as it has a level crossing it couldn't be left unmanned overnight as somebody would need to work the gates and they wouldn't have been able to close it to do long section working

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/srx/R366.htm

 

Highley Station (Severn Valley) has a loop but only one platform. so all trains use the main line.

https://www.svrwiki.com/Highley_signal_box#/media/File:HYDiagram.jpg

It is possible for a passenger train to cross a goods train here, but the goods train has to be shunted into the loop.  It is not permitted to cross passenger train in this way.

 

Shillingstone station S&DJR in 1960.  Note that there are no facing point locks for the siding points that would become facing if trains ran wrong line through the station, which strongly suggests it wasn't a regular occurrence.  

 

http://trainweb.org/railwest/images/sb-diag/shilling-60.jpg

[Michael Hodgson]

2 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Shillingstone station S&DJR in 1960.  Note that there are no facing point locks for the siding points that would become facing if trains ran wrong line through the station, which strongly suggests it wasn't a regular occurrence.  

 

http://trainweb.org/railwest/images/sb-diag/shilling-60.jpg

Indeed.  Several other things also indicate it wasn't signalled for reversible running through one road.  You'd want a Down Home to Up platform Home signal, a Down departure sinal from the Up Platform locked with instrument, that platform would typically be described on the diagram as "Up and Down", you'd want a King lever for it to switch out. 

 

And you couldn't leave the box unmanned if a public level crossing would be needed when the box was closed.  However that crossing lacks a gate lock lever and the gates open away from the line, so perhaps only access to the yard and not interlocked.

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Radio Electronic Token Block used on some long remote single lines (like the Highlands) had spring loaded points so that trains always entered the left hand track at crossing places, the radio equipment having superseded physical tokens.  There was no longer a signalman to work the points and signals. Departing trains had to trail through the points set for the other loop, the flanges forcing the points blades over, which returned under spring pressure.  They were provided with indicators (resembling home signals) which confirmed whether the points were correctly set for trains to arrive in their respective loops. 

https://www.railsigns.uk/sect11page3.html    ref 11.48 to 11.51

Aren't some of them set so that the trains go to the right-hand platform instead of the left?

edit - Rannoch, apparently, so the sidings can be shunted without having to manually move and lock the spring-loaded points against their usual direction.

Edited April 9 by Reorte

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I thought there are (or were) a few places where trains use the main platform/straight road when there isn't a cross. I seem to recall this happening at Axminster, but it's over 20 years since it was my local station, and I might well be remembering it wrongly.

 

I think a few places in Scotland have right hand running.

[33C]

Ockendon has this layout and 99% of the time we are signalled on the straight through platform, until peak periods where we revert to type to cross at the station. It can catch out irregular passengers who stand on the "up" platform, look confused about the amount of people on the "down" platform, and then do the mad dash over the footbridge. If they make the effort, we wait, if they dawdle, we don't. We have to clear the single line and junction on time otherwise there's a knock on. Moral: read the boards, all of it!

[Pete the Elaner]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I thought there are (or were) a few places where trains use the main platform/straight road when there isn't a cross. I seem to recall this happening at Axminster, but it's over 20 years since it was my local station, and I might well be remembering it wrongly.

 

I think a few places in Scotland have right hand running.

 

Muir of Ord (just W/NW of Inverness) is on a passing loop & trains run on the right through the station. It felt strange but was consistent with the platform information signs.

[keefer]

6 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Radio Electronic Token Block used on some long remote single lines (like the Highlands) had spring loaded points so that trains always entered the left hand track at crossing places, the radio equipment having superseded physical tokens.  There was no longer a signalman to work the points and signals. Departing trains had to trail through the points set for the other loop, the flanges forcing the points blades over, which returned under spring pressure.  They were provided with indicators (resembling home signals) which confirmed whether the points were correctly set for trains to arrive in their respective loops. 

https://www.railsigns.uk/sect11page3.html    ref 11.48 to 11.51

Thanks for mentioning this, I was going to post but couldn't remember where it happened (other than ScR RETB)

[PortLineParker]

Hi all,

 

Thanks for all the responses; some very useful information up above.

 

Yes, it is Stalbridge - my mistake. Looking on an OS map and photographs, the points don't seem to be particularly 'shallow' to allow higher speeds than normal. I'd expect a speed of around 10 or 15mph would have to be observed to avoid derailing.

 

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[Michael Hodgson]

56 minutes ago, keefer said:

Thanks for mentioning this, I was going to post but couldn't remember where it happened (other than ScR RETB)

Quite a lot of variety ...

 

The East Suffolk line was RETB for a few years, but now resignalled .

The Cambrian line was RETB, but now ERTMS

 

I think the Swansea-SHrewsbury line was operated under No Signal Token Remote (key token instruments worked by train crews rather than signalmen) with spring points similar to the West Highland system for a while, again subsequently modernised.  The advantage offered by RETB was that it did away with physical tokens, but it could be used without maintaining line wires - there was extensive damage in the Highlands one winter.  The downside of RETB is the need for every train to be fitted with RETN equipment.

 

The Whitby line including Battersby (a crossing point where trains have to reverse), is controlled by NSTR controlled from Nunthorpe SIgnal Box, although in this case I believe points are set by removing the token from the instrument.

[Steadfast]

Weston-super-Mare is on a single line but has a loop and two platforms. Trains can use either platform in either direction. Both lines have the same limit of 25 mph, so there is no slowing to diverge over pointwork.

The limitation (as I recall slightly hazily from memory, it's not something that directly affects me but was an interesting nugget of info) is that London IETs turn back in the longer of the two platforms, so if there's one of those sat waiting, everything else will use the other platform.

 

Jo

[Michael Hodgson]

3 minutes ago, PortLineParker said:

Yes, it is Stalbridge - my mistake. Looking on an OS map and photographs, the points don't seem to be particularly 'shallow' to allow higher speeds than normal. I'd expect a speed of around 10 or 15mph would have to be observed to avoid derailing.

 

If you're exchanging tokens by hand you're pretty much limited to that anyway.  When trains had tablet catchers of various types, train could be allowed to go through rather faster on lines so equipped.   M&GNJR, S&DJR, some long Scottish routes.

[ikcdab]

20 hours ago, PortLineParker said:

Hi all,

 

Just a quick one; picture a hypothetical section of single track with a 2 platform station along its length. The line passes through the station and a loop is located on the Down side, something like below:

 

If a through train was approaching the station from the left and both lines were clear, would the train still pass into the left hand track to always be on the left hand side or would the through line be set? I was wondering as on the S&D Henstridge was one such station among a few and with trains such as the Pines Express passing through, would they have been given a straight run through or would they have had to slow to negotiate the points at either end of the loop? It sounds silly now I've typed it out but I've been thinking about it for a while and I wonder if anyone knew of any concrete practice or first hand knowledge?

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

Its worth remembering that regular or normal services should only use a properly signalled route. In an emergency then different rules apply, but here I am referring to normal, timetabled services.

For passenger trains, that means that any facing points must be capable of being locked and there should be a signal authorising movement over the points.

If those are not supplied then the answer to your question is yes, the train will always take the left hand route. 

[jim.snowdon]

There is no hard and fast answer to this one, although left hand running in loops is a general convention. It all depends on how the layout is signalled, and any layout can be signalled in accordance with what the customer, ie the Operator, wants (and is prepared to fund). I don't recall the Board of Trade having any 'rules' on the subject either, although there was the common sense design principle that trains running in to a loop should have the straighter route, the presumption being that trains running out of the loop would normally be starting from rest or at a low speed and would not be inconvenienced by any speed restrictions through the reverse curves at the end of the loop.