Was using the name Oliver Cromwell on a loco controversial at the time?

[009 micro modeller]

4 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

It could feature such people as Nicola Sturgeon, Liz Truss,

I thought the Leader Project was relatively short-lived and not as successful as hoped, so in some ways it’s very appropriate surely? Though perhaps veering a bit too far into politics there.

[6990WitherslackHall]

23 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Don't think there has ever been a Loco named Beeching?

As AYmod has posted earlier, there is a Class 47 named Beeching's Legacy (kind of funny as the Class 47 helped to replace the steam locos that Beeching got rid of)

Edited April 19 by 6990WitherslackHall

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

Some do not include Huntingdonshire & Cambridgeshire in East Anglia.

70013 was unlikely to be seen hauling a train through Huntingdon as it was intially a Norwich loco and until transferred to Carlisle 12 years later spent it's time on the GE system land would have spent it's early years in and out of Liverpool St.

I think they were (mostly) in the Anglo-Saxon East Anglian kingdom and therefore should by some definitions be included, but not all of Lincolnshire was (Mercia I think) and Essex was a separate kingdom at one stage, so also not East Anglia. But ‘West Anglia’ really is a daft term - who would they describe as ‘the West Angles’?

[The Johnster]

Brown Windsor featured on the menus of cafes in the 50s and 60s as well. 

 

The naming of Britannias was carried out to be appropriate to the regions they were allocated to, and the initial batch included Britannia, arguably a figure based on Boudicca, and Boudicea, the Roman spelling of Boudicca, both appropriate to the territory of the Iceni.

 

The WR batch, with different tenders, were named for famous broad gauge GW engines in an attempt to persuade the region and it's drivers to accept them.  Swindon had lobbied for more Castles, but Marylebone had put their foot down with a firm hand, an action repeated with the 3MT tanks instead of 5101s, 4MT 4-6-0s instead of Manors, and 9Fs instead of more 28xx.  The first of these, Iron Duke, was allox Old Oak Common at the exact time that problems with William Shakespeare, the 'Golden Arrow' engine, at Stewart's Lane coinciding with a lack of serviceable Merchant Navies gave Old Oak a chance to offer Iron Duke on loan; Stewart's Lane practically bit their hand off, and Old Oak contrived to forget that their loco was on loan and never asked for it back.  GW, 1, Marylebone, 0. 

 

There was no chance of the WR fobbing 70015 off on anyone else, though, and the WR batch were duly delivered, allox Old Oak, Laira, and Canton.  Old Oak and Laira were not happy with their new engines, and considered them vastly inferior to Castles, but Canton had a lot of uphill slogging work that a 2-cylinder loco with a free-steaming boiler and 6'2" wheels was very capable of, and liked them.  A few years later, at a meeting of divisional Loco Dept, GMs, the Newport manager stated that he would be happy to take on the whole allocation of 14 engines at Canton and the locos were transferred forthwith.  Iron Duke remained at Stewart's Lane as understudy to William Shakespeare; TTBOMK nobody commented on the use of a loco named for the victor of Waterloo on the principal Paris-London service of the day...

 

Canton got Kings in 1960, and the WR's Brits were all xfer LMR at that time.

 

On the subject of names, they do have political significance on occasion.  There is a story concerning Eamon DeValera, the Irish Teaichoc (not sure I've spelt that right) returning from a meeting at Downing Street on the 'Irish Mail' from Euston.  There was a photo-opportunity with him and his party with the smiling loco crew and the stationmaster in his top hat at Euston, with the group placed in front of the loco's nameplate; Ulster Rifleman!  No doubt unintentional, but a tad insensitive all the same... at least it wasn't 70013!

[009 micro modeller]

2 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The naming of Britannias was carried out to be appropriate to the regions they were allocated to, and the initial batch included Britannia, arguably a figure based on Boudicca, and Boudicea, the Roman spelling of Boudicca, both appropriate to the territory of the Iceni.

On an East Anglian theme but a bit later in history, they also named one after Hereward the Wake. A national hero or a troublemaker and arsonist? You decide. I wrote my dissertation on him.

 

In a similar vein I’m thinking of setting my next layout in Shropshire and naming a freelance loco after Eadric Silvaticus/Eadric the Wild (who I don’t think has a loco already named after him).

[The Johnster]

Depends which side you're on, but I tend in general not to be on that of the Normans.  Owain Glyndwr; national hero and the inspiration for modern Welsh institutions, and resistor of a murderous usurper, or a treacherous and treasonous rebel leader who destroyed more than half of his own country for no gain (both are valid viewpoints).  I was a little unprepared for the sudden release of my inner Welsh nationalist a few years ago prompted by the English flags on display all around the village of Tintagel.  Tintagel has an anglicised name in the Cornish language, Kernoweck, and Arthur, if he existed, was a saxon's worst possible nightmare, a Romano-British chieftain capable of effectively uniting opposition to them.  Welsh legends do not have him as a king, never mind the 'true king of all Britain', though there was a High King of the Isles at one time; he is described as Dux Bellorum, war leader.  Tintagel is a travesty.

[Michael Hodgson]

47 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

But ‘West Anglia’ really is a daft term - who would they describe as ‘the West Angles’?

Well we were never too sure but the GN in WAGN was previously the Great Northern Suburban lines, so presumably the WA was the GER routes - people living on the Hertford East line rather than Hertford North, or Cambridge to Liverpool Street rather than Kings Cross?

[009 micro modeller]

19 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Well we were never too sure but the GN in WAGN was previously the Great Northern Suburban lines, so presumably the WA was the GER routes - people living on the Hertford East line rather than Hertford North, or Cambridge to Liverpool Street rather than Kings Cross?

Yes it is - I think Liverpool Street to Cambridge is known as the West Anglian line, presumably because it’s slightly further west than the East Anglian one.

 

42 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Depends which side you're on, but I tend in general not to be on that of the Normans. 

Generally I’m not either, which is why I liked Hereward (an English rebel after the Norman Conquest). Not that I’d approve of what some of his ancestors did to the Britons though.

[melmoth]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I thought the Leader Project was relatively short-lived and not as successful as hoped, so in some ways it’s very appropriate surely? Though perhaps veering a bit too far into politics there.

 

Also theoretically possible but unworkable in practice

[Jeremy Cumberland]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

at least it wasn't 70013!

At least he didn't go via Fishguard and find 6007 King William III on the front. It might be called the Glorious Revolution in England, but it didn't half stir up some trouble in Ireland.

 

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

No doubt unintentional

I wouldn't be too sure about that. I can easily imagine someone with anti-Irish sentiment engineering such a thing.

 

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Owain Glyndwr; national hero and the inspiration for modern Welsh institutions, and resistor of a murderous usurper, or a treacherous and treasonous rebel leader who destroyed more than half of his own country for no gain (both are valid viewpoints).

I suspect he got a Britannia named after him purely because of his appearance in Shakespeare's Henry IV Part 1, being placed alongside another renegade (and would-be regicide), Hotspur. 70012 John of Gaunt is Henry IV's father, and a major character in Richard II (where he gets one of the finest speeches Shakespeare ever wrote, although doubtless you'll not agree).

 

This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,

This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall,
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,

Edited April 19 by Jeremy Cumberland

[The Johnster]

Oh, yes, I'm sure that it was the Shakespearean connection that led to the loco namings.

 

Gaunt's speech is rarely quoted in full, and is in fact a damning prophecy of the future of the country under Richard II:-

 

'.. .This England, this nurse, this teeming womb of royal kings

feared by their breed and famous for their birth,

Renowned for their deeds as far from home

for christian service and true chivalry

as is the sepulchre in stubborn Jewry

of the world's ransom, blessed Mary's son.

 

This land of dear, dear, souls, this dear, dear land,

dear for her reputation through the world is now leased out 

- I die pronouncing it - like to a tenement or pelting farm.

England, bound in with the triumphant sea, whose rocky shore

beats back the envious siege of watery Neptune, is now bound in with shame,

with inky blots and rotten parchment bonds.

 

That England that was wont to conquer others

hath made a shameful conquest of itself'. 

 

 

Thus died time-honoured Gaunt, at least according to Stratford Bill; hardly the tone of most sceptered isle quotes!  No good quoting half the speech, let's have the whole thing...  Gaunt never forgives the king for ending his regency, and by this time, has lost his son Henry Bolingbroke to the king's banishment from the realm.  Bolingbroke is no hero either, and has Richard II murdered, or at least taken into his custody at Wakefield Castle after which he was pronounced dead, having never been seen again amongst the living. 

 

 

 

[pete_mcfarlane]

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Cromwell lived for a goodly time at Ely, 

And his house is now a museum. 

https://www.olivercromwellshouse.co.uk/

 

 

[Matt37268]

I appreciate I’m throwing a massive hand grenade into the mix here and it’s  nothing to with naming BR 7MTs but wasn’t there a plan to name something after a certain DJ from Leeds several times and that got vetoed? 

[Tumut]

On 19/04/2024 at 11:45, DCB said:

Why?   He and Fuller,  potentially saved millions of lives by inventing Blitzkreig  in place of WW1 style trench warfare.   

Hello All, while I will not dispute the role that Messrs Liddill-Hart & Fuller played in advocating mobile armoured formations, it should be pointed out that they were not the only advocates of this approach. The Red Army Generals, Tukhachevsky and Timoshenko were also advocates of, and practiced in manoeuvres of mobile armoured formations in the 1920s. The between the wars Reichswehr also did covert training and manoeuvres with the Red Army at this time. Whilst I would also agree that such tactics were then in early infancy, it is also significant that Zhukov was also well aware of, and participated in similar manoeuvres as a young Red Army officer. Stalin's notorious, and murderous purges of the late 1930s eliminated most of the Red Army's expertise in this regard. ( Stalin did not forgive Tukhachevsky, whose defeat in Poland was partially due to Stalin refusing to send requested backup, a fact that Lenin heavily criticised Stalin for. Tukhavchesky was executed in June, 1937.) The ongoing problem of co ordinating a Blitzkrieg type offensive, even late in WW2, was the actual inadequacy of communications between various formations. The theory and actuality of continuous radio contact  being an ongoing problem, Regards from Australia.

[Cruachan]

7 hours ago, Matt37268 said:

I appreciate I’m throwing a massive hand grenade into the mix here and it’s  nothing to with naming BR 7MTs but wasn’t there a plan to name something after a certain DJ from Leeds several times and that got vetoed? 

I'm not sure about multiple times, but that name was intended to be applied to 47712 as part of the Waterman Railways fleet in March 1997.

[Cruachan]

On 19/04/2024 at 08:05, johnofwessex said:

Naming a modern train Lady Godiva with matching vinyl's anyone?

 

I'd be doing a Monsieur Alphonse (Undertaker from Allo Allo,)clutching my heart and keeling over

There is of course a Pendolino currently named 'Lady Godiva', though without the accompanying vinyls.

[DCB]

Someone could get a lot of free publicity  for naming a loco inappropriately.   Or a gasp at an exhibition when it or even 7930  "That's Hall" appears.   They say you can't rewrite history but we modellers can.   70014 painted name Iron Duck anyone?    My layout has posters for Harry Markle and Anton Deck appearing at the local theatre

[APOLLO]

Oliver at Wigan Wallgate on a special, probably the last time a BR Brit seen in the town.

 

 

And the real Oliver has form in this Royalist town - long tale

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wigan_Lane#:~:text=Lilburne deployed part of his,chased the Scots in 1648.

 

A re-enactment some time ago.

 

https://greatacre.wordpress.com/2012/05/31/civil-war-in-wigan/

 

We even have a ditch named after him

 

 

 

Anyway, Wigan was loyal to the crown, as our coat of arms shows.

 

 

Brit15

[Matt37268]

6 hours ago, Cruachan said:

I'm not sure about multiple times, but that name was intended to be applied to 47712 as part of the Waterman Railways fleet in March 1997.

I read that sometime ago  it was a possibility at some point in the 1980’s, and again just after his death by VTEC (just before we know what we know now) Someone at VTEC dodged a massive bullet there. 

[petethemole]

8 hours ago, Tumut said:

he ongoing problem of co ordinating a Blitzkrieg type offensive, even late in WW2, was the actual inadequacy of communications between various formations. The theory and actuality of continuous radio contact  being an ongoing problem,

The Germans got round this problem by using national flags.  All the leading vehicles of the attacking formations had the flag draped over the engine deck, bonnet or roof. Red with a white centre, they were highly visible from above and the Luftwaffe was clear to attack anything in front of the lead vehicles.  Thus when communications failed or the artillery couldn't keep up (being almost all horse-drawn in the "Blitzkrieg" period) the Air support was still available.  This did require achieving air superiority first.

[009 micro modeller]

5 hours ago, DCB said:

Someone could get a lot of free publicity  for naming a loco inappropriately.

I’m surprised this hasn’t been tried, or more to the point that railway operators haven’t tried to sell ‘naming rights’ to individual locos/multiple units as a way of getting companies to sponsor them.

Edited April 20 by 009 micro modeller

[62613]

On 19/04/2024 at 17:45, OnTheBranchline said:

I've seen arguments that Crommell is overcredited for his successes in the English Civil War and the credit should go to Sir Fairfax. 

Well, Sir Thomas Fairfax (junior) was the first G.O.C. of the New Model Army. Cromwell was the commander of the cavalry.

[62613]

On 19/04/2024 at 17:55, 6990WitherslackHall said:

As AYmod has posted earlier, there is a Class 47 named Beeching's Legacy (kind of funny as the Class 47 helped to replace the steam locos that Beeching got rid of)

Beeching didn't have anything to do with ending steam; that was the 1955 modernisation plan

[Dunalastair]

Wiki has an interesting take on the BR loco naming : 

"The names had to be euphonious (they had to have a pleasant sound). Also, their meaning had to be readily apparent to anyone interested, whether railwayman or member of the public. There had to be good publicity value in the names as well as providing good morale for the staff, and the collection of names for a class had to provide some form of class identity. Another rule was not to use names of people who were still alive at the time, and some on the committee had a strong dislike of names or associations with the military (largely because they were fed-up with the recently ended war). There was a preference for names of heroes and other well-known people. However, slavishly following a single theme to an absurd extent was discouraged"

 

Wiki also illustrates the statue of the Lord Protector here in St Ives (Hunts), erected after the county town thought better of the idea.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Oliver_Cromwell,_St_Ives

 

St Ives station was indeed in GER country, but latterly joint with the GN. BR standards did appear, but I don't think services on the farmers' lines into the Fen would have justified a class 7.  

 

https://stives100yearsago.blogspot.com/2020/09/bringing-railway-to-st-ives.html

 

Now we have the guided busway ... 

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Dunalastair said:

Another rule was not to use names of people who were still alive at the time, and some on the committee had a strong dislike of names or associations with the military (largely because they were fed-up with the recently ended war).

I don’t think Cromwell could be said to be ‘not associated with the military’, though if they specifically mean contemporary (or at least relatively recent) military figures it makes sense.