Express Passenger Service Formations GWR/BR (W)

[kyle.lennard]

Can anyone help me with the Formation of the Torbay Express or any other named express passenger services during the GWR period or BR pre Dieselisation.  

Edited April 21 by kyle.lennard

[ikcdab]

That's quite a wide period,  could be colletts, Hawksworths or mk1s, or a mix! 

It would have varied a lot over the period, you're looking at a brake, a restaurant car then a mix of firsts and thirds.

You might be lucky enough to find some operating notices, otherwise, photos might be the best bet.

[Innerhome]

You may find "Operation Torbay" xpress publishing helpful -gives Summer 1957 train formations.

Up Torbay Express:

Brake Third Corridor

Third Corridor

First Corridor

First Corridor

Dining car (BR std)

Third Open (BR std)

Third Corridor

Third Corridor

Brake Third Corridor

 

Coaches of GW origin except the 2 BR stds.

 

(There is a companion volume "Operation Cornwall")

 

[The Johnster]

The train formations as requested by Traffic Dept specified only the accomodation, not the actual diagram of coaches used.  The 'Red Dragon' for example ran for some time as a set of Choc/Cream liveried mk1s, but with a Hawksworth refurbished Collett restaurant car in matching livery, eventually replaced by a mk1 RMB, the opposite situation to the consist of the 'Torbay' referred to by Innerhome (The Squeeze says that's where I ought to be, in a home...)

 

But named trains were usually given specific sets of whatever the latest stock at the time was, so the probability would be a chronological sequence of styles.  If you start at the grouping, that would be Churchward toplights, Collett bowenders, Collett 'sunshines', Centenaries on the CRE, Hawksworths introduced between 1946 and 1954, and mk 1s.  There were no Hawksworth catering vehicles, he refurbished Colletts, giving them a rather different appearance with sliding ventilator windows.  Named trains on the Bristol and South Wales routes started getting mk2s in 1966, retaining refurbished 100mph RMB catering, progressing from 2b to 2e, with the airco mk2s running with mk1100mph BG brakes ; the West of England trains retained refurbished 100mph mk1s until replaced by HSTs.

 

Outside the heady glamour of named trains, the rule seemed to be that no stock of a matching style should ever be coupled together unless there was absolutely no alternative, in which case it was essential that the liveries should be different.  Ordinary GW and WR express trains were a wonderful mix of styles, liveries, and outlines until the late 50s when a lot of the earlier stock was culled.  The Hawkworths were extinct by 1966, and some were scrapped with less than 10 years service.  By '66, a program of refurbishment of mk1s was underway, with new seating, formica panelling, and flourescent lighting along with repaints into blue/grey livery and B4 or Commonwealth 100mph bogies, with some stock repainted into blue/grey but retaining the B1 bogies, original wood panelling, and seating; this was 'B' stock, speed limited to 75mph and used in excursion and charter traffic.

Edited April 21 by The Johnster

[Steamport Southport]

Have a look at the individual instructions for the coaches on the Wizard/Comet website as there are some formations on there. Maybe the Torbay Express is in there, I haven't looked.

 

Wizard Models

 

As an example, for this Restaurant Composite

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/w5bk/

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/w5.pdf

 

6.05pm Paddington-Malvern Wells 1938 BTK/CK/RC*/BTK*/TK*/CK/CK/TK/BTK/CK/FK/TK/BTK *70’ stock 

 

6.45pm Paddington-Great Malvern 1951 BTK/TK/CK/RC/CK/BTK/CK/TK/BCK 

 

3.55am Paddington-Fishguard 1951 BTK/TK/FK/BTK/BTK/TK/CK/RC/CK/TK/BTK

 

 

Jason

Edited April 21 by Steamport Southport

[Hal Nail]

Bits and pieces in these previous threads:

 

 

Edited April 22 by Hal Nail

[rovex]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

Bits and pieces in these previous threads:

 

 

Gosh, I don't know whether to feel pride they a topic I started nine years ago is all grown up or just to feel old.😄

[Hal Nail]

4 hours ago, rovex said:

Gosh, I don't know whether to feel pride they a topic I started nine years ago is all grown up or just to feel old.😄

Take the win, this is supposed to be fun :)

[Cwmtwrch]

Not all WR named trains came from/went to Paddington https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/84189-the-devonian/ In the 1960s the northern terminal of the Cornishman was also at Bradford, after a period at Wolverhampton.

[7802]

On 21/04/2024 at 16:10, Innerhome said:

Coaches of GW origin except the 2 BR stds.

 

This is almost certainly a mistake in the book. The formation in 1957 was all of BR origin other than the Dining vehicles.

 

The Torbay Express Formation gained a Mk1 RU and SO in 1958 to compete the set.

 

I have seen photos of the train consisting of Mark 1s and a 70 foot GWR kitchen car.

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, 7802 said:

This is almost certainly a mistake in the book

 

That would make complete sense, and be in line with the formation of the Red Dragon at this time.  IIRC this train also got mk1 catering stock in 1958.

[Hal Nail]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

That would make complete sense, and be in line with the formation of the Red Dragon at this time.  IIRC this train also got mk1 catering stock in 1958.

Similarly in the BR chocolate and cream era the Cornish Riviera was mk1s with a 2 coach ex GWR dining set and the Royal Dutchy mk1 with a Collett restaurant car (H57 I think).

[nightstar.train]

W301, a diagram 16 Restaurant First, was repainted into chocolate and cream in early 1962 and is noted as running in the Red Dragon. It would've run with a open third/second as a pair*. All five of the diagram 16 RFs were built for the Western region, although it's unclear how much service they saw. They were anthracite powered and were quite unsatisfactory. They also had two of the diagram 700 full kitchen cars, which usually ran as a triplet with an open first and an open third*. 

 

 

*There were restaurant thirds and firsts. Externally they were identical to ordinary open 1st/3rd, but were branded restaurant. Internally they had loose seating rather than the usual bench types. They weren't always available however and ordinary open 1st/3rd could be subbed in. 

[The Johnster]

13 hours ago, nightstar.train said:

There were restaurant thirds and firsts. Externally they were identical to ordinary open 1st/3rd, but were branded restaurant.

Not quite; the ordinary open thirds had central vestibules which the catering opens did not have.