Dapol OO 14XX and 517 Class 0-4-2Ts

[Edwardian]

8 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

The photo in Lewis' "Auto Trailers Part 1" is definitely the same loco and auto-trailer setup as that shown in the GWR magazine article, IMHO, but from a slightly different angle and looking much more like an official company photo.

 

Very much my conclusion.

 

So, given we have two pictures of the Calne train, yours usefully taken at some point before the publication of the article in 1907, what does this tell us about 517 livery?

 

The key seems to me to be the trailer livery, which demonstrates the value of looking at Lewis and at locos and trailers together.  In 1905 there are instances of both the standard intertwined monogram and no mongram. No.13 has the so-called 1906 prize monogram, so I went back to what Lewis says about the prize monogram in his SRM volume and, yes, it started to be used in 1905.

 

The competion for the new monogram was run in the GWR Magazine in August 1905. No.13 trailer, built December 1905, was its first recorded use.

 

I think both the photographs are likely to be taken by the GWR. The Lewis one has, as you suggest, has more of the official portrait look, while the one in your magazine article could be a 'staged in service' shot. It seems clear that these pictures represent the as-built condition, so seem also to place 517 No.1468 in its circa December 1905 condition.

 

So, we have a nice idea of how a 517 was painted for auto-services in December 1905. 

 

There is the point you mention, with the dark patch on one side of the lower backsheet. Then there is the dome. Both pictures seem to show it painted. This may indicate we are seeing a rather rapid evolution of the brown livery during 1905, and appears to pre-date what is said of the general practice of dome painting.

 

 

8 hours ago, Harlequin said:

The quality of the photo in Lewis Auto Trailers is much better so we can see that the trailer is No. 13 with the Calne destination board and that the loco is 1468. It has the cream backsheet but the inside of the cubby around the handbrake winder is either brown or black, probably brown?

 

This book is full of photos of 517s, as you might expect. Three high quality full page photos in the first few pages concentrate on 517s.

 

Readers of this thread probably already know this but, Lewis also says something useful about the all brown livery and the crimson lake livery on coaches: The all brown livery had the letters "G.W.R." twice, one at either end of the coach in the waistline panels whereas the crimson lake livery had the "G.W.R." once only, near the centre. So, if you can see the coach side in a B&W photo this will help to distinguish between the two liveries and that in turn might say something about the loco livery.

 

 

Lewis has no doubt about a change from brown to crimson and, as you say, notes a change in lettering style in the process that helps distinguish the two in B&W and might, therefore, be a guide to the colour of any 517 attached to one!

[David Bigcheeseplant]

16 hours ago, Brassey said:

This has been discussed elsewhere and I am not alone in this view. Why would the GWR start to paint its prestigious trains in a colour that was associated with workmen trains?  One opinion is that, at the time, paint technology was such that red was a hard shade to achieve and it took the GWR a number of years to master its application which they did by 1912...

The original GWR coach colour was overall brown, only 1864 did white or cream star to be applied to the upper sides.

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Good point, but stepping back from it a bit, the 517s were not high-mileage locos, and whilst there were lots of mods (cabs, bunkers, tanks etc) taking place across the class, most individual locos would not be visiting the works as often as the express locos. It would be interesting to know the average works visit frequency of a typical 517.

 

It depends on the periodicity used for works visits (for other than work arising).  This changed considerably over the years, particularly during the Collett era and even then it was not entirely mileage dependent with boiler condition also being an important decider irrespective of mileage (e.g 'bad' water meant more frequent visits for major boiler work than 'good' water).

[brumtb]

20 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

I did a reasonably systematic trawl of the Railway Magazine for livery details some years ago. I won't link to the blog again - for some people, there be dragons - but it's attached here. 

 

For mention (and critique!) of all-over coach brown, see the entries for:

 

 July 1903, August 1903, October 1904, June 1905, July 1905, August 1906, August 1908, October 1909.

 

Note also the different terms used to describe the colour.

 

RailwayMagazineLiveries_OK.pdf 1.11 MB · 30 downloads

Excellent, Mikkel, thank you!

Tony

[locoholic]

Looks like Dapol will be getting the money that I used to spend on Bachmann products! This announcement is most welcome, especially the 517 class.

[The Johnster]

Same here, only in my case we are talking about the Diagram N auto-trailer, and there is no requirement for a 48xx or 517 at Cwmimbath.  Whilst I do not have any particular brand allegiance or loyalty, in the past it has been simply the situation as was that Bachmann made the bulk of the locos I need for my layout; excluding industrials I have ten Bachmanns and two Hornbys because Bachman made more GW tank engines than Hornby.  This is changing, with Accurascale's panniers and Rapido's small prairies in the mix, along with this very sensible release from Dapol.  My view (other views are available and may be better informed) is that Bachmann are a dead duck as far as new models of steam prototypes are concerned, have been for a while, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.  They have to toe the Kader line, which for the present appears to be to pull up the drawbridge and hunker down until the recession goes away.  Costs seem to be difficult for them to control, comparing with Accurascale, Dapol, and Rapido introductions. 

 

Two completely new models that have never been attempted in RTR form before are in the offing, the Rapido 44xx and Dap's 517, and Accurascale are offering 57xx and 8750s without top feeds, again something not available previously in RTR form since the Gaeity 57xx, which can hardly be included as a serious model in the present-day situation.  And all these new models, and others from the companies mentioned,have been announced since the last completely new steam offering from Bachmann was belatedly made available, the 94xx.  They have brought out a completely retooled J72 in the meantime, but this is a retool, not a new model.  Even Hornby have introduced new prototypes, big LNER ones and the Turbo.

 

Wind the clock back a decade and I would have predicted that RTR manufacturers' interest in steam-outline and 'traditional railway' prototypes would be declining as my generation, the last with clear memories of steam in service, begins to shuffle off it's mortal coil.  Bachmann have behaved pretty much in accordance with that prediction but the rise of new players and the expansion of others into the main game category is very much not!  I was wrong, and couldn't be happier about it!

[Edwardian]

11 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Two completely new models that have never been attempted in RTR form before are in the offing, the Rapido 44xx and Dap's 517, and Accurascale are offering 57xx and 8750s without top feeds, again something not available previously in RTR form since the Gaeity 57xx, which can hardly be included as a serious model in the present-day situation.  

 

These are, indeed, great developments, and it is worth considering the manufacturers who are behind them.

 

Elsewhere I have said that I watch eagerly for what Rapido and Accurascale announce, but find what Hornby and Bachmann (outside the NG field or infrequent commissions) do is rarely of interest. This, I have found, has been reflected in the MR awards/polls recently, so I seem not to be alone in this.

 

I add Dapol as a third in this trinity of exciting manufacturers. Of the long-standing manufacturers, Dapol, which started with some interesting stuff with Rails/NRM, is now the one to watch. These days it has really got into its stride. I think here of the LSWR B4 - one of the sweetest running little engines I have - the GWR diesel railcar and the Mainline and City coaches. We have a panelled, pre-Grouping design, auto-coach on the way and the suggestion that corridor toplights will follow at some point. 

 

Bachmann's GWR tooling is old, and, like the Airfix and Mainline tooling of an even older generation, really only favours the very last years of Grouping and beyond. The forthcoming 4800 (Dapol), 4500/4575 (Rapido) and 5700 (Accurascale) should finally give the pre-War GWR modellers pukka versions of these protoypes, fit for their purpose. Add the B-sets and the 4400 (Rapido) and the 517 (Dapol) and the picture is transformed.   

 

There is no reason why the Big Two could not have moved into this territory, revamping and expanding their ranges, had they wished to. 

 

As it is, Hornby introduced some superb Collett coaches some years back, which I thought had seen them turn a corner after their somewhat lacklustre 42/7200 and Star, but Hornby has rather given up on the Grouping GWR modellers since, neither up-dating models (there is every reason why Hornby should have seized the mantel and done its own 4800/14XX) nor doing anything new.

 

The last thing I recall Bachmann doing that was of use to me with my GWR 1930s hat on was the Robinson ROD 3000 and the Hall.  While the Dukedog was a good move, it was the wrong side of the mid-thirties for me, and it is typical of Bachmann's rather sleepy attitude that it did not take the opportunity to develop this as a Bulldog, which I feel would have been popular as well as most welcomed by me.  As it is, it has been left to others to update the small prairies, 5700/8750s and moguls. Bachmann seems to have snored its way through all of this.

 

 

11 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Wind the clock back a decade and I would have predicted that RTR manufacturers' interest in steam-outline and 'traditional railway' prototypes would be declining as my generation, the last with clear memories of steam in service, begins to shuffle off it's mortal coil.  Bachmann have behaved pretty much in accordance with that prediction but the rise of new players and the expansion of others into the main game category is very much not!  I was wrong, and couldn't be happier about it!

 

The alternative prediction was that, as the grip of the BR steam/transition era loosens as over time fewer entrants to the hobby actually remember steam in mainline service, and, rather than everyone modelling the BR Blue era, steam continues to exert its romantic influence but its adherents come to represent several smaller areas of interest using RTR product, e.g. a return to the Grouping era that was prominent in the 1970s, increasingly opening up the pre-Grouping period, or focussing on industrial railways and preservation subjects. 

 

I guess we can both be very happy about the way this is turning out, largely due to these new manufacturers, and here you may count Dapol among the relative new comers because we are really talking about what it's done since it resumed OO gauge RTR productionb with new product. 

 

Many reasons to be cheerful, therefore, though I have to say, the 517s and a 4800 are likely to be fiscally speaking a uniquely traumatic event for me! 

 

 

Edited May 4 by Edwardian
spelling

[Captain Kernow]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

there is no requirement for a 48xx      at Cwmimbath

Not even 1471, getting a bit lost after working the Llantrisant - Penygraig service?!

 

[The Johnster]

Sadly, no; the auto work at Tondu did not begin until the big timetable revision of 1953 and the locos allox were newly auto-fitted 4575s, replaced by 64xx after the track alterations at Cwmmer Afan in 1961 and the ise of Blaengwnfi rather than Abergwnfi as the terminus for that branch.  1471 came within a few miles of Tondu territory at Hendreforgan on it’s Penygraig work, but the Bridgend-Gilfach Goch service closed in the thirties.  As it involved a reversal and run-around at Hendreforgan, it would have been an ideal candidate for an auto service and might have survived longer had this happened.
 

There are some pretty extreme gradients on the Tondu branches, and with the traffic demanding two trailers, three on Saturdays when everybody wanted to go shopping in Bridgend, 0-4-2s would have been out of their depth.  The final pitch to Nantymoel was half a mile at 1 in 27!
 

1422 was used from 1957 as a stationary boiler at Tondu, and was in fact the last engine to leave the depot when it closed in 1964.  

[Edwardian]

I mentioned earlier that my guess as to the appearance of "4S-517-003 1158 G.W. Green - Open Cab" was that it would not be a lined pre-Great War version, but represent a picture I had seen of 1158. I now posess a postcard of said picture:

 

 

The dome is clearly painted and the loco appears unlined, as these tanks would have been treated from the early Great War period onward. 

 

The best indication of date appears to be the MEX in the background, which has 16" letters, introduced in the early 1920s, though the locomotive has yet to be repainted in the 1923 scheme with 'GREAT WESTERN' on the tanks. 

 

It shows to my mind a 1920s condition loco, but probably not one on auto-train service, as these would probably have received a cab backsheet before the Great war and, by the 1920s, infilling to the bunker profile. 

 

Thus, it looks to me as if 1158 in the condition pictured would be more or less contemporaneous with the condition of Dapol's 523 version, the main difference in livery terms is that 1158 still has her polished safety valve bonnet.

 

Thus, if one wants a non-auto/open cab 517 for hauling conventional stock, such as those long bereft Ratio 4-wheelers, for the period c.1906-1914, the best bet would seem to be to repaint the frames of the red-framed open cab release. 

[Miss Prism]

Exeter.

[Miss Prism]

Is that Loco Publishing Co negative #8202?

 

[Edwardian]

5 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Is that Loco Publishing Co negative #8202?

 

 

All I can tell you is that it was published as a postcard by F Moore 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

I mentioned earlier that my guess as to the appearance of "4S-517-003 1158 G.W. Green - Open Cab" was that it would not be a lined pre-Great War version, but represent a picture I had seen of 1158. I now posess a postcard of said picture:

 

 

The dome is clearly painted and the loco appears unlined, as these tanks would have been treated from the early Great War period onward. 

 

The best indication of date appears to be the MEX in the background, which has 16" letters, introduced in the early 1920s, though the locomotive has yet to be repainted in the 1923 scheme with 'GREAT WESTERN' on the tanks. 

 

It shows to my mind a 1920s condition loco, but probably not one on auto-train service, as these would probably have received a cab backsheet before the Great war and, by the 1920s, infilling to the bunker profile. 

 

Thus, it looks to me as if 1158 in the condition pictured would be more or less contemporaneous with the condition of Dapol's 523 version, the main difference in livery terms is that 1158 still has her polished safety valve bonnet.

 

Thus, if one wants a non-auto/open cab 517 for hauling conventional stock, such as those long bereft Ratio 4-wheelers, for the period c.1906-1914, the best bet would seem to be to repaint the frames of the red-framed open cab release. 

Don't forget - although I'm pretty sure that it doesn't apply in respect of this photo - that lining dies not show up on many early oh photoes because the emulsion used on the plates and some films could not recognise some colours.  In addition patterns made by cleaning, and the residue left from cleaning using the various substances in use in earlier tmes, could 'hode' lining - again depenbding on is colour.

 

Of course that hardly applies as the inter-war period progressed as many GW smaller tank engines never saw so much as a bit of cotton waste worked on their paintwork left alone a mixture of lub oil and lamp oil.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

All I can tell you is that it was published as a postcard by F Moore 

'Who' (if, according to some sources, he ever really existed?) was the Loco Publishing Company by another name when it came to railway subject postcards.

[Edwardian]

30 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Don't forget - although I'm pretty sure that it doesn't apply in respect of this photo - that lining dies not show up on many early oh photoes because the emulsion used on the plates and some films could not recognise some colours.  In addition patterns made by cleaning, and the residue left from cleaning using the various substances in use in earlier tmes, could 'hode' lining - again depenbding on is colour.

 

Of course that hardly applies as the inter-war period progressed as many GW smaller tank engines never saw so much as a bit of cotton waste worked on their paintwork left alone a mixture of lub oil and lamp oil.

 

That is a good point always to bear in mind, indeed, earlier on this thread I recall someone posted a picture of an "unlined" 517, but I could spot evidence of lining nonetheless. In a black and white picture, I find that GWR locos often need to be very clean for the lining to reveal itself on the plate, it's not white lining (pace Wolverhampton) after all.

 

In this case, the only trace that I can see that could be lining is on the lower part of the cab side sheet cut out. I am not convinced this is lining, mind you, and given the date, lining would be a surprise.   

[Miss Prism]

I'm reasonably sure it's 1920. A check in WSP Harrison's 1921 loco allocations will indicate to whether it might have been an Exeter resident around that time. It's probably allocated to the Exe Valley trains.

 

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

I'm reasonably sure it's 1920. A check in WSP Harrison's 1921 loco allocations will indicate to whether it might have been an Exeter resident around that time. It's probably allocated to the Exe Valley trains.

 

 

I only have '34 and '35. Think it had been withdrawn by then (mislaid the RCTS vol now!)

[PaulRhB]

1401 ordered and I must find one to match 1462 as well 😁

[Miss Prism]

1158 was withdrawn in 1931. RCTS details boiler changes (so it might have received a Belpaire), but there is no record of changes to cabs and bunkers.

[rprodgers]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

1158 was withdrawn in 1931. RCTS details boiler changes (so it might have received a Belpaire), but there is no record of changes to cabs and bunkers.

I understand that a Belpaire firebox was fitted to 1158 in March 1929. But there are no details as to whether an enclosed cab was ever fitted.

(As per notes accompanying Malcolm Mitchell 517 kit).

[Edwardian]

12 hours ago, rprodgers said:

I understand that a Belpaire firebox was fitted to 1158 in March 1929. But there are no details as to whether an enclosed cab was ever fitted.

(As per notes accompanying Malcolm Mitchell 517 kit).

 

Thank you. I foolishly did not return RCTS 4-coupled tanks to the bookshelf and now cannot find it.

 

So, as regards the picture of 1158, to sum up what we know so far, the MEX in the background seems to have 16" letters. It looks a reasonably fresh application. The changeover from 25" to 16" G W lettering was specified in the CME's Circular 3627 of 17 August 1921 (gwr.org), so is generally reckoned to occur c.1921. Barring any experimental/transitional liveries or earlier introduction for cattle wagons, that would seem to give us a rough 'not before' date. 

 

The 'no later than' date is March 1929, or whenever 1158 left for Swindon for what would be her fitting of a B4 boiler.

 

The application of  'GREAT WESTERN' on the tank sides was, IIRC, introduced in 1923, so would presumably have been applied on the first repaint after that, with, in most cases, the number plate being moved rearwards on the tank side to accommodate.  Six years seems a long time without a repaint, but the early '20s was probably a time of maintenance back-logs, so I suppose it is possible that 1158 did not enter the shops until the boiler replacement in 1929.

 

Miss Prism points out this is at Exeter, but I do not have any information on allocation in the 1920s that might, or might not, narrow the c.1921-1929 timeframe. Certainly there seems to have been an influx of the new Collett 0-4-2s to Exeter in 1932, so I can imagine they probably displaced 517s on the Exe and Teign Valley services, with this particular loco withdrawn in March 1931.

 

I find that I do have a copy of Rowledge's first and last allocations volume, which shows 1158 to have been a Newton Abbot loco in 1922.  Since I have no intention of modelling anywhere on the GW in either 1922 or 1947, this had proved a uniquely redundant volume until now!

 

Edited May 11 by Edwardian
spelling

[Mikkel]

On 10/05/2024 at 14:29, Edwardian said:

Thus, if one wants a non-auto/open cab 517 for hauling conventional stock, such as those long bereft Ratio 4-wheelers, for the period c.1906-1914, the best bet would seem to be to repaint the frames of the red-framed open cab release. 

 

The mention of (Indian) red for the frames reminds me of this clip from the GW Magazine June 1906, p118. 

 

 

It is mildly interesting that what we call Indian Red today is described as "chocolate brown" here - but not too surprising if you have tried to mix up the colour yourself  (though "chocolate" is arguably a stretch).

 

What is more intersting to me is the notion that green splashers appear to have coexisted with Indian Red/brown frames during a transition period.

 

Or perhaps A.J.L. White is just a bit confused and rushed, wanting this thing done quickly so that he may prepare for the long-awaited Tea with the lovely Miss Longbottom.

 

 

[Miss Prism]

That's fascinating, but unfortunately the correspondent contradicts himself, viz: 'the wheels/framing being painted black', but below the footplate  they become 'chocolate brown'.

 

[Edwardian]

The turn of the century and the new century's first few years are fraught with the possibility of error when trying to determine GWR liveries.

 

My recollection is that there was a transitional phase, when splashers were painted green with Indian Red retained for the frames, but I recall this was thought to be circa 1905. I recall someone made a model of a Dean Goods finished in this state. Thus, I am surprised at an article from 1906 treating this step as an innovation. I think the answer lies in Miss Prism's comment that the article is contradictory. The article may be desribing two distinct and sequential phases of livery development. 

 

EDIT: Good old gwr.org. Ah, yes, but perhaps this change to green splashers was more like 1903/4. The text might be taken to imply green splashers with Indian Red frames:

 

From 1902, changes to the above scheme began to appear on goods engines. Springs, both below and above the footplate, and their spring shackles, on both locos and tenders, began to be painted black rather than Indian Red, and from 1903/4, it would appear that splasher fronts above the footplate started to appear in green rather than Indian Red. On goods locos and tanks, it seems that brass splasher beading was painted over, probably in black (to match the splasher tops). The evidence for some of these transitional livery aspects is sketchy, and it is unlikely they were applied consistently to all newly painted or repainted locos, until their formal adoption in 1906.

 

This is what I was thinking of, by Wenlock of this parish:

 

Edited May 12 by Edwardian
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