A3 on BR Western Region

[Wyatt Johnson]

Please tell me if this is the wrong forum, but if not, I would like to know if anyone has any information on if the class A3 operating in the BR Western Region? I am currently in the process of creating a layout set in the BR Western Region in the 1950s, and while most of my small fleet of engines make sense to run on it, I have an A3 I would like to run on it and have it make sense. If anyone has any information or examples, it would be much appreciated!

[Mol_PMB]

I don't think the loco exchange trials would meet your requirements.

In 1925 there were A1s (pre-rebuild to A3s) tested on GWR routes.

In 1948 (closer to your timeline) there were A4s tested on the GWR (and some other LNER classes, but not A3s)

Some info here:

 

https://www.nrmfriends.org.uk/post/locomotive-exchanges-through-the-steam-years-swapping-and-learning-the-lessons

https://www.facebook.com/DidcotRailwayCentre/posts/95-years-ago-today-2-may-1925-was-the-last-day-of-the-1925-locomotive-exchanges-/3570758922950970/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Locomotive_Exchange_Trials

 

Were there ever through trains to the GWR with LNER pacific motive power? Possibly.

In the opposite direction Halls, Granges and Castles made it into LNER territory occasionally, usually leaving a trail of dislodged platform coping stones owing to the width over their cylinders.

https://m.facebook.com/DidcotRailwayCentre/photos/a.210517012308528/942553452438210/?type=3

 

Of course in later years 4472 was widely travelled in preservation.

[65179]

As ever with these sort of questions, the devil is in the detail. What do you mean by Western Region? If you want to include the GW & GC Joint line through High Wycombe and Princes Risborough then A3s were routine during the period that Leicester, Neasden (and prior to Woodhead electrification  Gorton) had A3s on the Great Central.

See for example:

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p709159667/hc9fbfdbb

 

Oxford and Banbury give scope for LNER classes but others would have to comment on whether more than B1s, D16s etc would have made it there in the '50s.   If you wish to model the WR on the Paddington to the West Country/S Wales section then you are largely limited to Mol_PMB's suggestion of railtours and exchanges.

 

Simon

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Were there ever through trains to the GWR with LNER pacific motive power? Possibly.

In the opposite direction Halls, Granges and Castles made it into LNER territory occasionally, usually leaving a trail of dislodged platform coping stones owing to the width over their cylinders.

The pacifics required a 70 foot turntable, thus a through train might have a pacific in regions where these were available, but it would come off to avoid going much distance into a region without 70 foot turntables. Pre WWII from the LNER Southern area Ivatt atlantics, B17 and B12/3 4-6-0's were used for through workings off the LNER to the South and West, with photos of such locos at Oxford, and post war the B1 4-6-0 was the usual traction.

 

[Cruachan]

4 hours ago, 65179 said:

Oxford and Banbury give scope for LNER classes but others would have to comment on whether more than B1s, D16s etc would have made it there in the '50s.   If you wish to model the WR on the Paddington to the West Country/S Wales section then you are largely limited to Mol_PMB's suggestion of railtours and exchanges.

 

Simon

There are a couple of photos on the webpage below of Leicester A3s at Banbury in 1954:

https://www.steve-banks.org/banbury/248-banbury-light-engines

 

They worked as far as there on the cross-country expresses from and to the Great Central.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The pacifics required a 70 foot turntable, thus a through train might have a pacific in regions where these were available, but it would come off to avoid going much distance into a region without 70 foot turntables. Pre WWII from the LNER Southern area Ivatt atlantics, B17 and B12/3 4-6-0's were used for through workings off the LNER to the South and West, with photos of such locos at Oxford, and post war the B1 4-6-0 was the usual traction.

 

 

The Western Region got three Duchesses for a while (46237, 46254 and 46257) which were a bit bigger than the LNER Pacifics so I doubt there would be any problem with A3s. Drafted in when the Kings were withdrawn due to problems with their bogies and did their duties.

 

 

There was also at least one V2 that worked on the WR.

 

60845 at Swindon in 1952

 

Ben Brooksbank

 

 

Jason

[pH]

2 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The pacifics required a 70 foot turntable, thus a through train might have a pacific in regions where these were available, but it would come off to avoid going much distance into a region without 70 foot turntables.

 

 There’s the option of turning an engine on a triangle (“wye”) when one is available.

[The Johnster]

TTBOMK the WR's borrowed Stanier Pacifics worked West of England expresses, and there are triangles at Old Oak and Laira so turning them was a minor inconvenience as opposed to a problem. 

 

For A3s, the obvious solution is the Birmingham Direct main line in the High Wycombe area where it was joint with the Great Central.  There was a Leicester-Swindon parcels in the 50s that was worked throughout by a V2, which I always think of as a pocket A3.

[DCB]

The A3 was Double Red  22 ton axle load and too heavy for all but WR Wolverhampton (later Shrewsbury)   Bristol and Plymouth lines in the 1950s.
The GW/GC Joint line was the main place the A3s would have mingled with WR locos but most GC expresses used the alternative Metropolitan line.    Even then very few A1/A10/A3 locos worked the GC,  4 at a time I believe, V2s could time the express trains and were more versatile  and speeds were limited.  Pre WW2 B17 and ex GC B3 locos ran faster schedules than the A3s could match as speeds were not restricted, I think a lot of 60mph  limits came in post WW2  so timing made fast hill climbing and coasting back down the modus operandi whereas pre WW2 the B17s were fast and the GC locos rode superbly at high speeds so making up time downhill was normal.
The B3s were not well   regarded but ran the overnight 3.20 Manchester the tightest timed train in the UK at the time for many years, so they couldn't have been that bad.

[DCB]

The preserved 4472 Frying Scotsman  in Apple Green LNER Livery, no deflectors and single chimney roamed around the WR after 1963. Seemed to have a dispensation to use Red routes, they probably use the 1922 weight diagram (A1s were red 20 ton, A3 double red 22 tons)   It came through Kemble circa 1963 and my parents took me to see it,  I think they expected it to stop not barrel through about 55mph belching black smoke.

Edited May 11 by DCB