GWR Cathedral Class?

[persistent_bodger]

Hello Everyone

 

I have picked up two super cheap engines recently, a Brand new Hornby King Stephen and a brand new LMS Princess. Although I am not short of kings and the princess is not my region I could not turn them down, but what to do with them?

 

I remember reading about a new GWR pacific that was on the drawing board, The Cathedral Class it bears a similar resemblence to a princess but also there was talk of a 4-8-0. I have not been able to find out any more information on either and was wondering if anyone out there new what if either were potentially viable locomotives. I have found two locomotives on gwr.org but nothing else. Are there any drawings of them?

 

Any help no matter how big or small would be much appreciated

 

thanks

 

Tim

 

 

 

 

[Leicester Thumper]

there was some drawings on a website which i forgot and didn't bookmark... so i'll have a quick internet dig to see whats around.

[Leicester Thumper]

i take it you found the cathedrals class on this page?: http://www.gwr.org.uk/galmeadows1.html

 

I'm struggling to find the site myself now... anyway will let you know if i can find it.

[Kits from Somerset]

There were 30 Cathedral class built numbered 6000 to 6029 but they were named after the Kings of England as the first one was going across the pond as this was more striking of a name.

[persistent_bodger]

i take it you found the cathedrals class on this page?: http://www.gwr.org.uk/galmeadows1.html

 

I'm struggling to find the site myself now... anyway will let you know if i can find it.

 

Thank you, I did find that one, it looks a lovely loco, thank you again for the info

 

best

 

Tim

[will5210]

I think Simierski built one on old RMWeb.

 

His workbench will still be on there, if you wish to scroll back through.

[James]

From reading articles in the modelling press I think it's normally accepted that the Cathedral Class would have been the 4-8-0.

[The Stationmaster]

From reading articles in the modelling press I think it's normally accepted that the Cathedral Class would have been the 4-8-0.

 

 

Although a 4-8-0 never appears to have even got as far as a Drawing Office doodle

[James]

Although a 4-8-0 never appears to have even got as far as a Drawing Office doodle

 

Well, maybe but in RM a few years there was a lovely model of one in 7 mil' - it was far better look than the pacific!

[The Stationmaster]

Well, maybe but in RM a few years there was a lovely model of one in 7 mil' - it was far better look than the pacific!

 

It would probably be much less inclined to slip as well

[The Q]

OS Nocks book, Stars castles and Kings, has a drawing of the proposed Cathedral and it was a Pacific (page 186), OS Nock had spoken to several of those involved with the proposal.

 

The Q

[John_Hughes]

OS Nocks book, Stars castles and Kings, has a drawing of the proposed Cathedral and it was a Pacific (page 186), OS Nock had spoken to several of those involved with the proposal.

 

The Q

 

As I believe Nock worked at one time at the Westinghouse plant in Swindon just up the road from the Works, he would presumably have been in a position to know!

[The Stationmaster]

As I believe Nock worked at one time at the Westinghouse plant in Swindon just up the road from the Works, he would presumably have been in a position to know!

 

 

Possibly, but then the RCTS did publish the Swindon Drawing Office outline sketch in 1962 so it hasn't exactly been a 'secret' for the last 50 years and probably longer.

 

While all of this is great fun it is perhaps worth bearing in mind that as war work eased back the railway Drawing Offices had time to start musing about the pot-war future and doing some very preliminary scheming of possible ideas. So, no doubt among many other things (such as numerous possible layouts for what became the 10XX 'Counties') there were others we have never heard much about. Personally I've always fancied the look of the 2-6-0 pannier tank.

[persistent_bodger]

Thank you for all the information. I did find a referance to a pacific in a book by OS Nock and will probably persue this further. But I am taken by a GWR 4-8-0, but we will see. Will post further developments and hopefully will get around to showing some of my GWR collection

 

thanks again

 

best

 

Tim

[Amyas 3266]

Hi Tim

 

Possibly a year too late for you but Nick Parsons had a two-page article in the Railway Modeller November 2008 pp 754/55 giving a description of how he assembled his '8001 Exeter Cathedral' from a Hornby (China) Princess, Hornby (China) King, Hornby (China) Hawksworth tender and plastikard allied with a sharp knife, needle files and patience. He used the artist's impression in OS Nock's Stars, Castles and Kings as his starting point.

 

Regards

 

Jeff

[steve fay]

I to have looked into this as a poject in 4mm many moons ago but also just for a bit of research.

During the war plans where put forward but on a top secret basis there was a war on you know.

The chief draughtsman took the front end of a king and stream Lined it chapeleon style this was linked to a high degree boiler 280 lb and 6foot 3" drivers there was talk of 5 or 6 row super heaters aswell.

All work was then halted and that was the end of it. It seems hawksworth was working on the gas turbine projects and that's where the interest was.

I think it was decided much later that a 4.8.0 would have been better for western purposes but at the time it was definetly a wide firebox pacific they where looking into.

I think it was a drauftsmans dream more of a credible option a bit like the plans to marry a star front end to a churchyard 47xx.

Both would have been formidable locos.

The picture in the stars castle king book by O S nock is superb, I don't know if they would have left off the safety valve bonnet.

A 7mm version would be a bit special, one for Ranelagh bridge?????

 

[EddieB]

Although a 4-8-0 never appears to have even got as far as a Drawing Office doodle

 

Thus far, but no farther. A dimensioned drawing of a 4-8-0 was prepared by AE Durrant in the late 1940s while he was a draughtsman at Swindon (the drawing is reproduced in his book "Swindon Apprentice"). Obviously it never had the chance of ever seeing the light of day (nor came anywhere near the attention of Hawksworth), but along with a 2-8-2T and a 2-10-2T, it probably would have been quite a useful locomotive. Durrant followed up with another drawing for a mixed-traffic 4-8-0, incorporating features from continental locomotives (wide firebox and bar frames) in the early 1950s.

[Coach bogie]

As much as a King bogie on a pacific looks impressive, it is highly unlikely that anything other than a either a Castle or plate frame Hall type bogie would have been used should the ideas have progressed further.

 

As originally designed the King did not have the unique bogie it came out with or the smaller 6'6" wheels. Only board room pressure called for a redesign to get the tractive effort up to 40,000lb+ resulting in the non standard driving wheels.

 

The bogie design only came about as Collett had concerns regarding some design weaknesses of the Churchward bogie and that stronger frames were required. A brief time after the King bogie had been approved, it was discovered the weakness was not in the frames but in the diagonal bracing. But for a few weeks the King bogie we all know, may never have existed.

 

Had the pacific gone ahead under Hawksworth (though highly unlikely) he would have known this - he was chief draughtsman on the Kings. Considering Hawksworth's appreciation of Stanier seen in the Counties (modified 8F boiler) and tender design ( based on standard LMS design) the pacific is likely to be more Princess than King.

One proposal (no 7 of 13) for the Counties even had outside Walschaerts - looking no more than a westernised large boiler black 5 -now there's a project!!!

 

There was also a 4-8-0 proposal from the 1920's combining a standard 47XX with a Star 4 cylinder front end arrangement.

 

Personally I am looking at the Beyer Paecock 4-6-0 0-6-4 proposal to Swindon for a GWR Garratt to see if one can be produced from the intended Heljan. At the moment rebuilding a K's appears the solution, especially with the sudden increase in unbuilt ones hitting the market since the Hattons announcement.

 

Interesting thread everyone

 

Mike Wiltshire

[S.A.C Martin]

 

It is due for a complete rebuild, including the addition of a (correct) Hawksworth tender amongst other modifications. One of my earlier kitbashes, was happy with it at the time, now I am looking at rebuilding it and putting it in BR Green.

[melmerby]

The bogie design only came about as Collett had concerns regarding some design weaknesses of the Churchward bogie and that stronger frames were required. A brief time after the King bogie had been approved, it was discovered the weakness was not in the frames but in the diagonal bracing. But for a few weeks the King bogie we all know, may never have existed.

 

I have always understood that the outside bearings came about due to insufficient clearance for the inside cylinders with the 6'6" wheels that were required to get the board's 40000+ T.E. If Castle wheels had been used as originally intended the Castle type (or similar) bogie would have been used.

 

Keith

[steve fay]

Do we think that they would have gone down the king bogie route if they had gone for 6' 3" wheels??

[Coach bogie]

I have always understood that the outside bearings came about due to insufficient clearance for the inside cylinders with the 6'6" wheels that were required to get the board's 40000+ T.E. If Castle wheels had been used as originally intended the Castle type (or similar) bogie would have been used.

 

Keith

So did I until I began reading up on the topic.But it wasn't the Castle type bogie that wouldn't fit as I discovered.

 

A W J Dymond was instructed to correct the issues of strength on the Churchward bogie (as used under Stars and Castles). Only deep plate frames would cure this. Deep inside plate frames would NOT fit under the King inside cylinders, but a Churchward bogie as used on the Castles would. Dymond submitted a revised plate frame bogie, that cleared the inside cylinders to give the King bogie we all know. To Dymond's surprise Collett agreed to this unusual solution.

 

Before any of the King's frames had been laid out, it was discovered the weakness on the Churchward (Castle style) bogie was with cross diagonal bracing. Once the bracing had been altered, a Castle bogie could have been strengthened and used and still fit under the King front end.

 

For some years the Kings were the only plate framed bogies in use. The first batch 1928 Halls had Dymond's original, all inside bearing, plate frame bogie design abandoned and the the Churchward(Castle type), in its modified/strengthened form used and continued in use under all the 4-6-0's for some time.

 

When Hawksworth took over and Dymond became his personal assistant, Dymond dug out his original plate frame designs, drawn up for the 1928 Halls and this was incorporated into what became the Modified Halls.

 

Basically a PLATE frame design bogie would not fit under the front end of a King, an original Churchward (Castle type) would. To make the PLATE type fit it was modified so the front wheels had outside bearings leaving clearance for the enlarged King inside cylinders. Had there not been an issue with the Castle bogie then a revised bogie design would note have been required or authorised

 

I hope this all makes sense.

 

As for the question of 6'3" wheels, looking at the King GA drawing, this would produce additional issues for the rear axle of the front bogie. The wheel is directly behing the outside cylinder. A 1 1/2 inch drop in frame height MAY foul the cylinder where it bolts to the frames, and require a revised cylinder design. It was tight with 6'6" wheels. This is just a personal observation from the plans before me.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[melmerby]

So did I until I began reading up on the topic.But it wasn't the Castle type bogie that wouldn't fit as I discovered.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Just read up the Kings in my O.S. Nock and it's all there!

It's interesting that Stanier, with the same basic layout on the Princess as The King at the front used a conventional bogie.

 

 

I noticed the "Artists's Impression" of the 6'3" pacific 8000 has the name 'Lord of the Isles' with a 'King' bogie and a Hawksworth tender.

 

 

 

Keith

[Coach bogie]

It's interesting that Stanier, with the same basic layout on the Princess as The King at the front used a conventional bogie.

I noticed the "Artists's Impression" of the 6'3" pacific 8000 has the name 'Lord of the Isles' with a 'King' bogie and a Hawksworth tender.

 

Keith

 

I find the Victor Welch painting interesting as it is more LMS than GWR. The understand that the Hawksworth/Mattingly 1940's pacific proposal never got beyond the boiler concepts. I would like to have seen the reaction for the proposed separate dome/topfeed in Crewe style and no Swindon combined topfeed/safety valve as Welch illustrated.

I notice Welch also moved the brake hangers. King & Princess brakes are forward of the wheel whereas the illustration has them to the rear of the wheel - neither King or Princess style!

 

Stanier did not react well to drawings of his first LMS designs that incorporated a Swindon style topfeed casing. I wonder if Hawksworth & Mattingly's reaction would have been more positive?

 

Your point regarding Stanier with his Princess design is spot on in my opinion. At the point of Mattingly's instructions, the Kings were approaching 20 years old and the weaknesses in the King bogies were then well known. At this Swindon was on version 3 of the front suspension arrangement, and the major plate fractures were only a few years away. I still find it unrealistic that Swindon would use the King bogie when the 'improved' Castle type would now fit. As you say, Stanier and his team wre able to use a 'standard' bogie on the Princess, I feel Swindon wold have done the same.

 

Great thread

 

Mike Wiltshire

[OnTheBranchline]

OS Nocks book, Stars castles and Kings, has a drawing of the proposed Cathedral and it was a Pacific (page 186), OS Nock had spoken to several of those involved with the proposal.

 

The Q

 

Is that a good book?