Frankfurt to London ICE-3 Test

[96701]

Part way down this document is a bit about DB wanting to run one of their trains to London.

[GoingUnderground]

I was told last month whilst waiting to catch a Eurostar from the Gare Du Nord by someone claiming to know about such matters that two night time test runs had already taken place!

 

I thought that I'd read somewhere a while ago that there were paths already reserved for DB through the channel Tunnel but that they'd never taken them up. Having recently used Eurostar to Brussels and then changed to a Thalys to get to Cologne it struck me at the time that it would be better if Eurostar did run through to Germany or beyond.

 

The ICE's run into Switzerland, Interlaken Ost is one terminal, so why not run services through France to St Pancras.

[Fat Controller]

I was told last month whilst waiting to catch a Eurostar from the Gare Du Nord by someone claiming to know about such matters that two night time test runs had already taken place.

They must have taken them across by ferry, then.......

[nightstar.train]

Please please please let this happen It would be very exciting, and a great boost to have more international services from London. Looks promising if they have had the latest ICE-3 sets specially built to the chunnel standards as i understood this was the main stumbling block. Now if only they would buy the Nightstar stock back from the Canadians so we can have the sleepers from Glasgow to Paris......

[craigwelsh]

Is the requirement for emergency set splitting and some of the other extreme design bits still in place for the tunnel? I know all the stock up til now apart from Eurostar didn't have the required capabilities unless the rules were relaxed. Have the rules changed or has this latest ICE been built with the facilities instead?

 

If Brian doesn't know about it above i'm guessing it certainly hasn't happened yet!

[Oakydoke]

Is the requirement for emergency set splitting and some of the other extreme design bits still in place for the tunnel? I know all the stock up til now apart from Eurostar didn't have the required capabilities unless the rules were relaxed. Have the rules changed or has this latest ICE been built with the facilities instead?

The rules are being changed, especially the requirement for splitting the sets. This is considered no longer necessary as in the event of an emergency it would take far too long to move all the passengers from one half of the train to the other.

More interesting is the requirement for train length and distances from the tunnel emergency doors.

The Fire suppression provision is much easier to achieve if built in on new stock.

I understand that the latest batch of ICE3 now being built are to be suitably equipped.

 

After sixteen years experience, three fires (not on Eurostar though) and the failure problems of last winter (Eurostars stranded in the tunnel), the safety authorities should be better placed now to review the safety requirements.

 

Non of this is the latest news. DB announced their interest some time ago and the changing safety requirements have been discussed and reported in the international rail media over the last year or so. The whole thing has intensified over the last 6 months with a view to tests commencing later this year or early 2011.

[Fenway Park]

Excellent news as this will offer extra destinations from London.

[Oakydoke]

Now if only they would buy the Nightstar stock back from the Canadians so we can have the sleepers from Glasgow to Paris......

That stock was modified so is now useless for it's original intended purpose.

Also, why the need for sleepers from Glasgow to Paris when you can already get there in a couple of hours at one third the cost?

 

There are already excellent rail services from places like Edinburgh, Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield, the East Midlands and other places on the MML and ECML to Paris and Brussels. You just change train at the StP/KX terminus.

There is extremely limited demand for viable through trains at an attractive frequency and when security, customs and immigration considerations are taken into account, it becomes very problematic to implement. Much better to provide convenient and frequent connections at the London terminus.

[Fat Controller]

Is the requirement for emergency set splitting and some of the other extreme design bits still in place for the tunnel? I know all the stock up til now apart from Eurostar didn't have the required capabilities unless the rules were relaxed. Have the rules changed or has this latest ICE been built with the facilities instead?

 

If Brian doesn't know about it above i'm guessing it certainly hasn't happened yet!

Thanks for the confidence, Craig- my sources tell me that it will probably happen some time in the next couple of months. If I remember correctly, the ICE3 has been tested as far as Calais in the past- as the line from Lille Europe to Frethun is relatively lightly used, SNCF tend to use it for acceptance trials for new/'foreign' designs. The snagging point, as I understand it, continues to be the issue of train length. The Cross-Passage Doors, used for access from the running tunnels to the Service Tunnel are at (nominally)375m centres. Thus a Shuttle (750m long) which does a controlled stop will have three of its doors opposite cross-passage doors, and a Eurostar (400m) would have two. An ICE, being shorter, would only have one, which has until now been deemed insufficient. I would imagine that there is a lot of testing and negotiation going on somewhere. Rest assured that, if I hear anything concrete that is not embargoed, it will appear here.

[Oldddudders]

Please please please let this happen It would be very exciting, and a great boost to have more international services from London. Looks promising if they have had the latest ICE-3 sets specially built to the chunnel standards as i understood this was the main stumbling block. Now if only they would buy the Nightstar stock back from the Canadians so we can have the sleepers from Glasgow to Paris......

No argument - making the European links from St P more international would be good for everyone. Can't say the same for the Nightstar thingie, though. Just who is the intended customer? In the era of the jet, does Cunard still make a bomb out of regular transatlantic sailings? I don't think so. Unless a further high-speed line is built north of London, there will be a minimum of 5 hours additional time just getting from Scotland to London - bound to be a couple of stops en route. Total journey time Glasgow - Paris not much less than 8 hours. Against a plane taking less than 2 hours, there is simply no demand. Scots famously know the value of money - but they also value their time, I'm sure.

 

The Nightstar services were a political sop to the Celtic nations to ensure they didn't try to stop the Government in its aims of constructing the Channel Tunnel, then seen as doing rather more for London & the South East than the rest of Britain. While we might regard 300 redundant coaches as quite a price to pay - my former colleague Vince was Project Director for their construction - that's politics.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for the confidence, Craig- my sources tell me that it will probably happen some time in the next couple of months. If I remember correctly, the ICE3 has been tested as far as Calais in the past- as the line from Lille Europe to Frethun is relatively lightly used, SNCF tend to use it for acceptance trials for new/'foreign' designs. The snagging point, as I understand it, continues to be the issue of train length. The Cross-Passage Doors, used for access from the running tunnels to the Service Tunnel are at (nominally)375m centres. Thus a Shuttle (750m long) which does a controlled stop will have three of its doors opposite cross-passage doors, and a Eurostar (400m) would have two. An ICE, being shorter, would only have one, which has until now been deemed insufficient. I would imagine that there is a lot of testing and negotiation going on somewhere. Rest assured that, if I hear anything concrete that is not embargoed, it will appear here.

 

My major concern would be access to the cross passage doors as that is probably the most hazardous part of any train evacuation process in the Tunnel. It is the bit where people have to queue - and can get tetchy (if not more frustrated or upset) and where they are exposed to whatever is in the running tunnel e.g smoke etc from a fire.

 

Add to that potential lighting failures plus all the things we heard about last Christmas time (admittedly in some cases seriously over-played judging by what was found out subsequently) and evacuation though a single door could prove hazardous.

 

I'd hate to rain on DBAG's parade as in my view Eurostar now seriously needs some top quality competition to get its service standards back towards the ground they once occupied. But unless this most critical of safety areas can be resolved - possibly by constraining the number of passengers on a train? - I don't think permission to operate should be given.

 

Perhaps DB could buy the Eurostar 'Regional' sets as they were a wholly UK owned asset and not in the international pool? (gets hat & coat and runs.....)

[The Stationmaster]

No argument - making the European links from St P more international would be good for everyone. Can't say the same for the Nightstar thingie, though. Just who is the intended customer? In the era of the jet, does Cunard still make a bomb out of regular transatlantic sailings? I don't think so. Unless a further high-speed line is built north of London, there will be a minimum of 5 hours additional time just getting from Scotland to London - bound to be a couple of stops en route. Total journey time Glasgow - Paris not much less than 8 hours. Against a plane taking less than 2 hours, there is simply no demand. Scots famously know the value of money - but they also value their time, I'm sure.

 

The Nightstar services were a political sop to the Celtic nations to ensure they didn't try to stop the Government in its aims of constructing the Channel Tunnel, then seen as doing rather more for London & the South East than the rest of Britain. While we might regard 300 redundant coaches as quite a price to pay - my former colleague Vince was Project Director for their construction - that's politics.

 

That's not even the half of it Ian (BTW I've not seen Vince for some years - he lived not far from us before we moved three years back; apart from Nightstar Project I'd known him from other jobs back in the past).

 

Nightstar was about 80% 'political' (in the UK at any rate), 15% genuinely aspirational, and 5% or less founded on reliable market research (again as far as the UK was concerned). The only other truly enthusiastic supporters of it were DB and NS; SNCB formally withdrew and I don't think SNCF ever really believed in it as a sensible project. In reality the only routes which possibly stood the slightest chance of any sort of commercial success were London-Amsterdam and London-Frankfurt and even they, particularly Amsterdam, were at so much threat from the revolution in cheaper air fares by the time they were getting near to practical reality that I doubt if Amsterdam would have lasted long. Frankfurt would probably have been teetering on the brink of financial disaster most of the time (after all who fancies riding on an overnight train which would stop at Dollands Moor, Calais Ville, 'somewhere on the Franco-Belgian border', and Aachen in order to attach/detach or change locos - and that's assuming they'd have been happy with the 'hotel power' shutting down so many times on the third rail that parts of it would never reset and could be forgotten until they arrived under ohle).

 

Notwithstanding the efforts made by Vince after he took over the train was an overspecified electrical nightmare with hotel power loadings which were more likely to melt various things such as eth cabling and NS ohle contact wires rather than provide comfort to the punters. Little wonder that when the project was dropped instructions were issued within Eurostar to destroy all the files and records.

[Supaned]

Having travelled on the Nightstar stock in Canada , I can say that it is very comfortable - what I would have liked to see was this stock used on UK domestic sleepers to replace the existing mark 3s - I'd have thought the benefit of a shower with a sleeper berth (thus making it more like a hotel and therefore more attractive to "business" travellers) would be a big positive. Likewise , the seated stock is good for longer distance travel.

I'm not sure what the ETH/hotel power requirements would be relative to an existing mark 3 set and whether the locos used could provide the necessary supply, still , a lost opportunity now.

 

Regarding Eurostars , I've seen a recent picture of a regional set in use for SNCF domestic services - is this a hire-in arrangement , or have they bought them outright? Whilst the idea of DB using a Eurostar is a good one , can they run on German 15kv AC electric supply?

[The Stationmaster]

Having travelled on the Nightstar stock in Canada , I can say that it is very comfortable - what I would have liked to see was this stock used on UK domestic sleepers to replace the existing mark 3s - I'd have thought the benefit of a shower with a sleeper berth (thus making it more like a hotel and therefore more attractive to "business" travellers) would be a big positive. Likewise , the seated stock is good for longer distance travel.

I'm not sure what the ETH/hotel power requirements would be relative to an existing mark 3 set and whether the locos used could provide the necessary supply, still , a lost opportunity now.

 

Class 92s could supply the eth needs of the Nightstar stock (provided the formation is not too big) on BR 25kvac but no BR diesel loco could do so - hence the intended use of the Class 37/genvan triplets to power the half-trains on non-overhead electrified lines in Britain - and they would be expensive to run.

 

But you are still faced with the problem of marketability - most UK business

travellers tend not to use sleeper trains, preferring to fly either early a.m. or go the evening before and overnight at destination. To compete against 'overnight at destination' demands a very high quality sleeper with a good 'catering offer' as well and while Nightstar would have been fairly good in that respect its ability to appeal to the UK business market would probably have been fairly limited except on routes where the flight time is that bit longer and less convenient.

 

And the simple fact was that nobody in Britain wanted them - and that was where they were offered first (and DB didn't want them either).

 

Regarding Eurostars , I've seen a recent picture of a regional set in use for SNCF domestic services - is this a hire-in arrangement , or have they bought them outright? Whilst the idea of DB using a Eurostar is a good one , can they run on German 15kv AC electric supply?

 

I'm not sure - SNCF could be hiring them or perhaps they have been sold (and Gordon Brown presumably spent the money on something other than our railways, unless it went into HS1?).

 

A Eurostar would require conversion work to run in Germany. The elctrical conversion might not be too onerous(?) but the biggest problem is likely to be ATP/Indusi or whatever the Germans now use. However DB braking requirements had slipped my mind and as Eurostars don't have a magnetic track brake they would not meet German braking requirements, serves me right for thinking too fast. (Nightstar stock did have magnetic track brakes.)

[Fat Controller]

Having travelled on the Nightstar stock in Canada , I can say that it is very comfortable - what I would have liked to see was this stock used on UK domestic sleepers to replace the existing mark 3s - I'd have thought the benefit of a shower with a sleeper berth (thus making it more like a hotel and therefore more attractive to "business" travellers) would be a big positive. Likewise , the seated stock is good for longer distance travel.

I'm not sure what the ETH/hotel power requirements would be relative to an existing mark 3 set and whether the locos used could provide the necessary supply, still , a lost opportunity now.

 

Regarding Eurostars , I've seen a recent picture of a regional set in use for SNCF domestic services - is this a hire-in arrangement , or have they bought them outright? Whilst the idea of DB using a Eurostar is a good one , can they run on German 15kv AC electric supply?

Mike's covered the Nightstar issue above.

The Eurostars you've seen running in Northern France are either leased from Eurostar (the regional sets) or are SNCF-owned sets from the main fleet- when I came back from Paris to Frethun two weeks ago, it was on one of these. Curiously, it terminated at Frethun (Low Level), then worked back to Paris, rather than running on to Calais Vile (sorry, I meant 'Ville'). It looked to be pretty full for the return as well.

I've not heard of any 15kV capability on E*, though it might exist.

[Edwin_m]

Certainly never heard of a 15kV capability on Eurostar and it would be difficult to add it to what is now a relatively old traction package which almost certainly wasn't built with potential conversion to that voltage in mind.

 

Signalling may be less of an issue, as I read somewhere Eurostars are now fitted with ERTMS for use in Belgium and that should also cover the more recent high speed lines, though I guess the older ones in Germany are still on their LZB (?) system.

[gresley]

I wouldn't get too euphoric about it all just yet. There have been all sorts of problems within Germany with ICEs. Toilets not working, doors not working, and the latest - during the hot spell, air conditioning not working, resulting in passengers being taken to hospital for emergency treatment. There was a bloke in charge called Mehdorn. His sole aim was to go public on the stock exchange, and in order to do so, he reduced servicing and other necessities below the bare limits just to produce a "healthy" financial balance sheet to show to investors. The result of that is now showing up in considerable amounts of bad workmanship and even worse quality of materials used.

 

If you want to have reliable travel, use the TGV or Eurostar in preference. DB is NOT what it was !!!!!!!

 

gresley

[The Stationmaster]

Certainly never heard of a 15kV capability on Eurostar and it would be difficult to add it to what is now a relatively old traction package which almost certainly wasn't built with potential conversion to that voltage in mind.

 

Signalling may be less of an issue, as I read somewhere Eurostars are now fitted with ERTMS for use in Belgium and that should also cover the more recent high speed lines, though I guess the older ones in Germany are still on their LZB (?) system.

 

I can't find anything about that Edwin and two Belgian websites (Belrail - in French) and an SNCB one don't suggest anything earlier than 2012 for ERTMS operation in Belgium - and even then it won';t be on a route used by Eurostar.

[Edwin_m]

I can't find anything about that Edwin and two Belgian websites (Belrail - in French) and an SNCB one don't suggest anything earlier than 2012 for ERTMS operation in Belgium - and even then it won';t be on a route used by Eurostar.

 

Sorry my mistake, I was thinking of GSM-R.

[ringo]

When built, Eurostar had the following power setting:

1, BR 25KV AC

2, SNCF 25KV High Speed

3, SNCF 25KV Classic lines

4, BR 750v DC Third rail

5, Belgium 3KV

 

Signaling systems:

 

1, TVM430

2, AWS

3, TBL

4, KVB

 

Of those above, I believe that the 750vDC is not now in use, and are fitted with TPWS, also May have but not certain ERTMS and possibly Indusi, although the indusi may be working via the ERTMS.

 

Mind its 13 years since I last did any work on the 373s.

 

As for magnetic track brakes, I dont see why they cant use 373s in Germany, as the braking curves are incredibly effiecient, I carried testing on the southern between Ashford and Dollands Moor, and we has dispenstation to do 100mph, With four disks per axle, and dynamic braking (although this blends out at about 150 ish mph), we could get a train to stop in its own train length in emergency, this placed a braking force of up to 3G on any moving object in the train, so if you were not hanging on, you flew.....litterally!

 

When the Nightstock (not Nightstar) coaches were built, MetCam didnt realy want to build them, and they put a stupidly high quote in for the job....and they still got it, the body shells that were first delivered were of extremely poor build quality, and you could litterally see the night sky through the rubbish welding in the roof areas!

They were complicated vehicles, BUT, when the first set was finished, I have to say i liked it, excellent day coaches, and the berths were well appointed, although the disabled birth was best in the service vehicle. But Ive since travelled on other sleepers in Europe, and recently travelled first class on a PKP overnight train, which had been refurbished, good, bed, own toilet, shower, Flat screen TV and DVD player....all in the compartment, no shared facilities....

 

R

[phil-b259]

 

As for magnetic track brakes, I dont see why they cant use 373s in Germany, as the braking curves are incredibly effiecient

 

 

I think its the law in Germany that magnetic track brakes are fitted and IIRC it requires parlamentary legislation to change the situation. So yes Eurostars may well compy with the braking rates, etc but unless a magnetic track brake is fitted the train is still illegal.

 

Thats the problem with international trains, they have to comply with all regulations in force in the countries through which they pass, however pointless those regulations might be to the other parties involved. For example nobody likes the yellow fronts mandated in the UK, especially the French but as thats the rule they must comply.

[Edwin_m]

The EU has published a series of Technical Specifications for Interoperability and if both the train and the infrastructure comply with the TSIs they should be compatible in every member state. These are mandated by EU directive and incorporated into law in all member states. Of course it's not that simple, as national standards still apply on pre-existing routes.

[The Stationmaster]

I think its the law in Germany that magnetic track brakes are fitted and IIRC it requires parlamentary legislation to change the situation. So yes Eurostars may well compy with the braking rates, etc but unless a magnetic track brake is fitted the train is still illegal.

 

Thats the problem with international trains, they have to comply with all regulations in force in the countries through which they pass, however pointless those regulations might be to the other parties involved. For example nobody likes the yellow fronts mandated in the UK, especially the French but as thats the rule they must comply.

 

Magnetic track brakes are indeed a legal requirement in Germany and they have to be tested and proved to be compliant with the laid-down standard before DB will allow certain types of passenger vehicle to operate over their railway.

 

As Edwin has already noted there is now the interoperability requirement but I'm not at all clear how this would work in this area. The reason for the magnetic track brake is partly a consequence of DB braking distances as the standard distance between a Vorsignal (=distant) and Hauptsignal (= home Signal) was firmly set at 1000 metres a goodly time ago. This is of course likely to be rather inconsistent with subsequent increases in train speeds hence the need for some potentiallly powerful reserve stopping ability.

 

As far as the 'BR 25kvac' setting on Class 373s was concerned it was only of any use on the Regional sets as they were the only ones permitted to run on BR 25kv overhead power. The 3rd rail shoes have, so I've been told, all been removed (well at least it saves in maintenance, and SNCF never liked it anyway) as there is no longer any need for the trains to run on 3rd rail, so presumably the '750vdc' setting has been disabled.

 

As it happens Metcam's owners put in a virtually rock-bottom price for the ENS contract - they then proceeded, in typical and long established MetCam practice, to bang-in variation orders at an almost unbelievable rate against every single minor spec variation or other changes. The best of these was probably the one for the towel cover in the shower/toilet cubicle; this was designed as a 'wet' area with the shower basically likely to cover anything and everything in there with water. It came to light as the build progressed that as a result any towels would get soaked and not be very useful so a variation order was allowed to produce a 'dry' towel receptacle/cover within the wet area of the shower /toilet compartment - MetCam duly banged-in a VO for, according to whjat I was told and if memory serves me right, either 12 or 16 thousand £s.

 

Regrettably the half set which was 'finished' and used for trials was not complete as some of the 'hotel' electrical installation was never finished. The international trials of the train went quite well including the DB magnetic brake test but a couple of problems, including one in the small bore plumbing, came to light during the climate testing in Vienna. But I think due to its amazing complexity the final, as built, specification would have been something of an operational and maintenance nightmare - the service vehicle contained more wiring than a D10xx/Class 52 diesel loco and although it was all assembled into looms before going into the vehicle fault tracing and repairs would have been a very trying job!

[DavidB-AU]

In the comments about 8+ hour Nightstars not being viable, I might remind people of the 10 hour overnight Eurostar between St Pancras and Bourg-St-Maurice during the ski season.

 

Cheers

David

[Fat Controller]

Sorry my mistake, I was thinking of GSM-R.

They use GSM-R within France and on CTRL (sorry, HS1) as well, I've been told- the Tunnel is being fitted at present- but this is as a means of communication, and not yet for signalling (using ERTMS2).