Detailing a Hornby Black 5

[Mucky Duck]

Relief! Not nearly as much work involved here as I had dreaded. The cylinders with the attached Brassmasters frame extensions simply

unscrewed in one unit from the chassis whilst the slidebars and rods slid out of the cylinder slots without fuss.

 

The rear of the frames and motion brackets had to be prized from the chassis and fared less well – one of them snapping, as shown – but not

a disaster by any means.

 

The cylinder/frame unit just slotted and screwed into the 'correct' replacement chassis, which has no vacuum pump operating arm but does

have riveted driving-wheel balance weights. Motion bracket still needs re-fitting in this photo.

 

It's only on close-up shots like this that I realise how crude and over-scale some of the Hornby motion is and how much better it could be.

I will not be going there though… apart from a couple of plates atop each cylinder that I've only recently noticed on the prototype, that's the

lot as far as detailing is concerned.

 

[Timara]

Hi MD,

 

Only just discovered this thread and it's got me hooked already. Looks like you've just persuaded me to do this to about 30 tenders........

 

Looking at one of the earlier posts I notice you've highlighted the lack of inset below the smokebox. If it's worth mentioning, I've done this to a few of mine (with the rest of the fleet to go) and it makes a huge difference. I'll add a photo of one of mine if you think it's worth showing.

 

Looking forward to more updates!

 

Cheers,

Tim

[Mucky Duck]

Hi MD,

 

Only just discovered this thread and it's got me hooked already. Looks like you've just persuaded me to do this to about 30 tenders........

 

Looking at one of the earlier posts I notice you've highlighted the lack of inset below the smokebox. If it's worth mentioning, I've done this to a few of mine (with the rest of the fleet to go) and it makes a huge difference. I'll add a photo of one of mine if you think it's worth showing.

 

Looking forward to more updates!

 

Cheers,

Tim

Thank you Tim. If you have any pics and info on how you did it, feel absolutely free to post it all here… or post a link to your thread if you have one. I've already received and appreciated valuable information from Larry (coachmann), Michael (cactustrain) and BR(W) amongst others and any more tips would be most welcome. At this stage I probably won't be attempting that particualr mod on this loco as I've already attached too many fragile bits. I'm not sure what else to modify – but I'm open to suggestions – and I'm also eager to get weathering to avoid boring the pants off anyone watching!

[Timara]

Thank you Tim. If you have any pics and info on how you did it, feel absolutely free to post it all here… or post a link to your thread if you have one. I've already received and appreciated valuable information from Larry (coachmann), Michael (cactustrain) and BR(W) amongst others and any more tips would be most welcome. At this stage I probably won't be attempting that particualr mod on this loco as I've already attached too many fragile bits. I'm not sure what else to modify – but I'm open to suggestions – and I'm also eager to get weathering to avoid boring the pants off anyone watching!

 

Sure! Ok, you'll have to excuse the dust on this one - cruelly enlarged! I've chosen one where I've not yet put the fillet of plasticard in to hide the modified body fixing mount (the whole reason the inset has been lost in the first place!). The effect, as I'm sure you'll agree, is well worth the effort.

 

 

As for the crosshead you refer to, I've got several of this base model and they're not too hard to reprofile at all. A bit of snipping and filing away and its sorted in about 5-10 minutes. A nuisance nonetheless!

 

Cheers,

Tim

[Mucky Duck]

Cheers Tim, always good to see how other modellers have tackled a similar project.

If it's that quick a job it may be worth me risking it… I can always glue back the accidentally pinged-off bits!

[Timara]

Cheers Tim, always good to see how other modellers have tackled a similar project.

If it's that quick a job it may be worth me risking it… I can always glue back the accidentally pinged-off bits!

 

Indeed. Forgot to mention that it's best to chain drill around the area to be removed. I found a 1mm drill was the easiest to work with. As you can probably see in the pic above, the retainer that holds the body securing nut is pared back to the nut itself and then a piece of plasticard added right in front of it. I really ought to start a blog posting of my own to illustrate it better I suppose!

 

The hardest job (for me) was not damaging the weathering/detailing jobs on locos that were otherwise "finished". Only 15 more of these things to go!

 

Cheers,

Tim

[sugar palm]

:rolleyes:like the thread on this converstion and looks good but from experience of many years buy or make your own vac pipes or steam heating pipes from a bit of brass round and some fuse wire (5 amp) the model will look great when you get it finished . But from my experience be warnded that whitemetal pipes bend or snap like carrots when caught on anything and its a sick job having to fit replacements By the way i think it looks great michael 50 F

[sugar palm]

:rolleyes:like the thread on this converstion and looks good but from experience of many years buy or make your own vac pipes or steam heating pipes from a bit of brass round and some fuse wire (5 amp) the model will look great when you get it finished . But from my experience be warnded that whitemetal pipes bend or snap like carrots when caught on anything and its a sick job having to fit replacements By the way i think it looks great michael 50 F

[Mucky Duck]

Well, it just had to be done! I was reluctant to tackle this originally – I thought I'd gone too far with sticking on new bits – but after Tim's post

I reckoned that if someone else has taken the trouble to show that it can be done without major problems, then why not? I chain-drilled the

bulkhead panel as suggested, cut out fiddly corner bits with a scalpel and finished-off with files – and it's worked out OK even if I have taken

some chunks out of the frames and lost a lamp iron in the process!

 

Replacement bulkhead was shaped to the smokebox profile and slotted in. Underside view reveals exactly what Tim was referring to about

paring back the front of the securing nut retainer to allow correct seating of the new part.

 

 

Before painting, the white plasticard bulkhead really stands out like a sore thumb – but it also shows-off the steam pipe. The original Hornby

vacuum pipe was redundant and its right-angle kink was perfect for this job. With a coat of matt black and the sun high in the sky, a nice dark

shadow under the smokebox emphasises the new mod. The pipe is a bit too prominent and could have been moved back closer to the bulkhead

but it was worth doing this work. This will be one of the first tasks on the next one!

 

 

Sugar palm, thanks, your warning has been heeded… I've already bent the lower vacuum pipe several times! Can't say that I'm overly fond of

white metal bits.

[Timara]

Makes a whopping great difference doesn't it

 

What gets me is that Hornby could have done it anyway and it wouldn't have caused much of an issue! I'll blame the CAD designer for this faux pas I think!

 

Giving me itchy feet now to finish off the two of mine part-way through this operation........

 

Cheers,

[Mucky Duck]

Makes a whopping great difference doesn't it

 

What gets me is that Hornby could have done it anyway and it wouldn't have caused much of an issue! I'll blame the CAD designer for this faux pas I think!

 

Giving me itchy feet now to finish off the two of mine part-way through this operation........

 

Cheers,

 

The more I delve, the more I think that Hornby should re-tool the Black 5. It's now seriously showing its age compared with recent Hornby products and with Bachmann's Jubilee, for instance!

[Timara]

The more I delve, the more I think that Hornby should re-tool the Black 5. It's now seriously showing its age compared with recent Hornby products and with Bachmann's Jubilee, for instance!

 

Couldn't agree more. It's 8 years old now too, so it's about right!

 

While they're at it, they can sort that blasted tender out. One shouldn't have to take a Stanley knife to a model in this fashion, costing what it does!

[iak]

Just when you thought a thread had gone deep enough...

You keep upping the stakes oh dirty feathered person - love it.

I'm going to have to devise a protocol for my "5's" after all this, its fascinating and enchanting to see an already decent model get so souped up. B)

[Mucky Duck]

Just when you thought a thread had gone deep enough...

You keep upping the stakes oh dirty feathered person - love it.

I'm going to have to devise a protocol for my "5's" after all this, its fascinating and enchanting to see an already decent model get so souped up. B)

 

Thank you, kind sir! This upgrade wouldn't have been nearly as thorough without the eagle eyes, shared knowledge and encouragement from fellow modellers… that's one of the main reasons for RMweb being head and shoulders above most others. Other fora/ums

[lonesome_whistle]

 

I've already bent the lower vacuum pipe several times! Can't say that I'm overly fond of

white metal bits.[/font]

 

 

I think that's actually the steam heat pipe so if it does continue to get in the way it could be amputated at the valve and the loco could be represented quite accurately in Summer condition!

 

Very nice work by the way.

[Mucky Duck]

I think that's actually the steam heat pipe so if it does continue to get in the way it could be amputated at the valve and the loco could be represented quite accurately in Summer condition!

 

Very nice work by the way.

 

Thanks lonesome. Steam heat pipes, vacuum pipes, gravity lubricators, steam injectors… I really need a basic 'how a steam locomotive works'-type of book/document rather than simply copying and guessing what these things do!

 

Only yesterday I found a new pic of prototype 44890 and discovered that the teardrop-shaped 'blob' on the side of the smokebox is a 28-element superheater… and it's in the wrong place on the model.

[Blandford1969]

Hi,

 

You really are setting a really high standard and it is great to see how to do it, I must get round to my conversion and this is a good incentive.

 

The tear shaped object on the drivers side of the smokebox is the atomiser for the lubricators, you cannot see the superheaters on the outside of the loco.

 

As for a good book on the basics i would suggest either "How steam locomotives really work" by Semmens and Goldfinch or "Raising Steam, the design operation and driving of steam locomotives" by D Griffiths.

 

If on the other hand you want a more detailed text then either "handbook for steam locmotive enginemen" published by the British Transport commission or for even more technical book then "locomotive Management, Cleaning Driving Maintenance the last version of which was published in about 1955 (that i know to)

 

Hope this helps

 

Kind regards

 

Duncan

[Timara]

Only yesterday I found a new pic of prototype 44890 and discovered that the teardrop-shaped 'blob' on the side of the smokebox is a 28-element superheater… and it's in the wrong place on the model.

 

Ah yes, the bit that Hornby dropped a bit of a b*ll*ck with. AFAIK, all locos built after the war have it in a lower position on the smokebox. It is moveable though and just needs a scalpel blade inserted under it to prise it off.

 

Best advice I can give is to check the instructions with the Brassmasters kit as I have a feeling it's mentioned where the change happens. Alternatively, the book on them by the same chaps (John Jennison etc) should have the requisite info.

 

Cheers,

Tim

[Mucky Duck]

Hi,

The tear shaped object on the drivers side of the smokebox is the atomiser for the lubricators, you cannot see the superheaters on the outside of the loco…

 

As for a good book on the basics i would suggest either "How steam locomotives really work" by Semmens and Goldfinch or "Raising Steam, the design operation and driving of steam locomotives" by D Griffiths.

 

Hope this helps

 

Kind regards

 

Duncan

Duncan, I just re-read the Brassmasters instructions and the tear-shaped object is indeed described as the cover for the superheaters, so my speed-reading failed me there. Thank you so much for the book suggestions; I think either of the first two titles sounds good… the last one maybe a bit too technical for me right now.

 

Ah yes, the bit that Hornby dropped a bit of a b*ll*ck with. AFAIK, all locos built after the war have it in a lower position on the smokebox. It is moveable though and just needs a scalpel blade inserted under it to prise it off.

 

Best advice I can give is to check the instructions with the Brassmasters kit as I have a feeling it's mentioned where the change happens. Alternatively, the book on them by the same chaps (John Jennison etc) should have the requisite info.

 

Cheers,

Tim

I did it already, yesterday Tim, thanks – you make it sound… simples! After seeing the new prototype pic I referred immediately to Brassmasters' instructions where, of course, it is mentioned. I tried to remove it exactly as you did, with a scalpel but it was a right little tuff-nut so I had to drill it from the inside before the blessed thing would budge… and I still broke it! I'll post some more pics soon. Funnily enough, I ordered that John Jennison book – Locomotives in Detail Vol.2 – the other day!

 

I think I'm now seeing light at the end of the tunnel (and, hopefully it's not the headlights of an on-coming express). How straightforward my other conversions should be compared with this! As much as I've enjoyed doing this (mostly), it's been very time-consuming and I've seriously neglected my layout!

[Mucky Duck]

I listened to Kratwerk's Trans Europe Express album as a bit of background music and the first track is Europe Endless. The word 'Endless'

is repeated time and time agin during the track, which brought home just how long I've been spending on this project. I keep telling myself

that I'm nearly there but I always find something else… am I ready for the nuthouse?

 

Fuse wire was used for gravity feed pipes at the front of the smokebox and finer telephone wire made a crude finechain connecting the steam

heat pipe to the buffer beam.

 

 

 

What looks like inspection panels atop the cylinders on the prototype were modelled from the increasingly handy takeaway container and

'riveted' before glueing into place.

 

The atomiser for the superheater had to be moved and its pipe replaced. When trying to scalpel-off the 'teardrop' I broke it and it left a

massive scar too. Once again, there's some 'cleaning-up' to do here but I'm banking on the remains of the carnage being disguised

by weathering.

 

 

 

Whilst I was on a roll I decided that Hornby's original pipe leading from the boiler through the footplate on this side just looks too 'neat'

and the prototype has a flanged joint in any case.

 

Having no hooter included in my Brassmasters kit I tried a poor mans version of Tim Shackleton's lathe-turned solution from MRJ No.138.

I used a short handrail knob – as he did – glued a short piece of wire through it but kept the plastic covering for most of its length, thus

forming the body of the whistle, then cut a little opening into the top of it. Where there's a will, there's a way… it'll do for a temporary bodge.

 

 

 

As with most modellers without train set curves, I wanted to close the unsightly grand canyon between loco and tender. I just put a 'V' kink

into the drawbar – which should require just a light 'dink' with a hammer to lengthen it slightly if it's too close. This may well be another

temporary solution.

 

 

There are now a couple of lamp irons to replace, front and rear lamps to add along with the Hornby brake rigging and sandpipes…

and that really will be IT!!!

 

Let the weathering commence…

[cb900f]

Mucky

Are you now going to put a welded tender behind her or are you going to use modellers licence and stick with the rivetted ?

 

Pete

[Mucky Duck]

Mucky

Are you now going to put a welded tender behind her or are you going to use modellers licence and stick with the rivetted ?

 

Pete

 

Hi Pete, I'm re-numbering this loco 44890 which, from the (not very good) photos, looks like it has a riveted – or at least a part-riveted tender.

[Timara]

Hi Pete, I'm re-numbering this loco 44890 which, from the (not very good) photos, looks like it has a riveted – or at least a part-riveted tender.

 

Hiya MD,

 

Going on the pair of photos of this loco on Fotopic, it's a part-welded one, which will cause you a little bit of bother (if you're *really* wanting to get this one right that is!). You'll be wanting the later style of tender spring hangers for a start, plus losing some of the rivet lines. I've done a trio of these and it can be done without damaging the paintwork/lining. Worth my getting a photo of either of mine?

 

Out of interest, what livery is this one going to have? Plain black in 1966-8 or fully lined out? If the former, it can be done......

 

Cheers,

Tim

[Mucky Duck]

Hiya MD,

 

Going on the pair of photos of this loco on Fotopic, it's a part-welded one, which will cause you a little bit of bother (if you're *really* wanting to get this one right that is!). You'll be wanting the later style of tender spring hangers for a start, plus losing some of the rivet lines. I've done a trio of these and it can be done without damaging the paintwork/lining. Worth my getting a photo of either of mine?

 

Out of interest, what livery is this one going to have? Plain black in 1966-8 or fully lined out? If the former, it can be done......

 

Cheers,

Tim

 

Hi Tim, thanks for the info… so my work is far from finished! I'm keeping mine lined, circa 1963 and yes please, by all means post your pics, no need to ask.

[Jub45565]

Has anything further been done to this? Ive only just found the thread, having located it via google. Excellent modelling!

 

I have a Hornby body to play with somewhere down the project list, Im yet to decide whether to get the Brassmasters detailing kit as it will have a Brassmasters tender and Comet chassis which bypass a fair few bits.