Detailing a Hornby Black 5

[iak]

This thread rocks...

Clear, concise and very stimulating - excellent.

 

Now seeing as this Black 5 beastie of mine will be getting P4'd soon - the rest of project has a certain rocket up it now

Thanks B)

[26power]

One thing that might be worth watching for is the length of the sand pipe to the centre (I think) drivers.  

 

I got one of the recent models (the one with the blue smokebox numberplate) a wee while ago and gave it a test run at the club, as you do.  Started of fine, but after only a few metres something went horribly wrong.  On inspection the connecting rod had bent badly.  

 

Loco went off to Hornby and was repaired pretty quickly at no cost (except for the postage to get it to them).  No mention of the cause, but as you can imagine the next test run was with a bit of concern.  Went okay, but the same thing just about happened!  The cause seemed to be the aforementioned sandpipe hanging so low that it caught in a rail joint.  I think this is what happened originally, as it would seem to almost stall the engine.  Seemed to be treatable by tweaking the pipe, but I think it maybe isn't shoved far enough into the sandbox before glue applied.  

 

Anyway, hopefully might be something for others to watch for.

 

Cheers,

 

26power

 

 

[Mucky Duck]

Again, thanks for the uplifting words of enthusiasm! I've had a go at that wretched tender angle, valance thingy, with reasonable success and will post some pics later.

 

 

The little boxes that you added the oil feed pipes to are the lubricators.

 

The brass part is, I think, the ejector.

Thanks for that Horsetan. I have a lovely book, Historical Locomotive Monographs – LMS Jubilees which I thought, having numerous detail images, would have helped but they aren't even captioned!

 

 

Where did the angle iron strip come from - is it brassmasters? I can see that being very useful if available sperately

The angle iron strip is on the Brassmasters fret. There are two, rivetted and plain, so I guess you'd always have a spare. It's the same with the 8F fret.

 

 

One thing that might be worth watching for is the length of the sand pipe to the centre (I think) drivers.

 

I got one of the recent models (the one with the blue smokebox numberplate) a wee while ago and gave it a test run at the club, as you do. Started of fine, but after only a few metres something went horribly wrong. On inspection the connecting rod had bent badly.

 

Loco went off to Hornby and was repaired pretty quickly at no cost (except for the postage to get it to them). No mention of the cause, but as you can imagine the next test run was with a bit of concern. Went okay, but the same thing just about happened! The cause seemed to be the aforementioned sandpipe hanging so low that it caught in a rail joint. I think this is what happened originally, as it would seem to almost stall the engine. Seemed to be treatable by tweaking the pipe, but I think it maybe isn't shoved far enough into the sandbox before glue applied.

 

Anyway, hopefully might be something for others to watch for.

 

Cheers,

 

26power

Some of my 5s have them already fitted by previous owners and have test run well. The loco in this thread has yet to receive them so I'll certainly look out for that. Thanks!

[Mucky Duck]

This Hornby Stanier tender is actually an old moulding left over from toy days, and it features a footplate 'angle' that was never there on real Stanier tenders. Quite why Hornby has never updated this tender is a mystery, although cynics have their point of view!

 

It is difficult to remove this unwanted moulding without damaging the axlebox springs, but while it's there, any drastic re-detailing as you have carried out seems a bit of a waste.......I once referred to it as like gold-plating a plastic spoon.

 

This tender problem has been bugging me since Larry posted it and I finally got around to seeing how I could rectify it.

 

After removing the tender body from the frame moulding I just had an exploratory 'hack' with a Stanley knife with the intention of just raiding

another of my stock should I mess up. To my pleasant surprise, the plastic is very soft and the stanley knife glides through it with ease…

utterly butterly!

 

After first thinking that the tender's front steps would be impossible to sort, I thought I'd have a go at extending them, thanks to the plastic's

pliancy, by carving them from the actual 'angle'. The first step towards this was to score deep 'continuation' lines, marked by the arrows in

the pic. I'm sure it's easier just to get carve off the steps completely and buy new Comet ones but that means spending!

 

 

 

Obviously removing the excess plastic is more difficult with the springs in place but still easier and quicker than I had imagined. Rear step

'extension' here is underway.

 

 

 

Front step pre-hacking on the left and post-hacking on the right, ready for finishing with emery board. I wasn't careful enough to avoid

pinging both spring and axle box off the frame, luckily without damage! There's now a void between the tender top and frames, to be

bridged with very thin plasticard sheet.

 

 

 

Not a very clear pic but just bit of filling and smoothing-off required, then re-attach the springs and axlebox – after doing the other side.

Considering the lack of time and effort, I'm reasonably pleased… Next time it will be far quicker doing it before attaching the springs!

 

[coachmann]

The Tender looks much better after removal of the valance. It's time someone of substance at Hornby realized the 1970s LMS Stanier tender is a cop-out and is not worthy of hanging behind its latest locos like the Royal Scot and Rebuilt Patriot, not to mention the trusty 8F and Black Five.

[Blackthorn]

Thanks for the updates Mucky Duck, I'm really looking forward to seeing the finished loco.

 

Certainly inspiring me to have a go at my 8F.

 

Mark. (watching with drooling anticipation).

[Mucky Duck]

The Tender looks much better after removal of the valance. It's time someone of substance at Hornby realized the 1970s LMS Stanier tender is a cop-out

and is not worthy of hanging behind its latest locos like the Royal Scot and Rebuilt Patriot, not to mention the trusty 8F and Black Five.

Bachmann is certainly giving Hornby a right drubbing in the Stanier tender department! Originally, this thread was to primarily to illustrate

Brassmasters 'easy' conversion and whilst this extra tender work has been interesting and educational I'm not sure I'm looking forward to

the prospect of converting another five of them! Also, you could have warned me sooner Larry… since doing this additional stuff I've been

unwittingly knocking lovingly-placed Brassmaster bits off left, right and centre!

 

 

Back to the job in hand, progress has slowed somewhat, thanks to a fast-approaching day job deadline, so just a little bit of modelling over the

last couple of evenings. 'Filler panels' were cut from plasticard to fill the gaps beneath the tender body.

 

 

 

The panels sit flush with the edges of tender body and nicely butt up to rear steps.

 

 

 

Looking at prototype pics there appear to be narrow bracing strips beneath the tender body. The aforementioned Jubilee book has very useful

drawings which show that these braces are in fact triangular. They were simply cut from plasticard using the drawing as a guide, then glued to

the underside of the filler panels, overlapping slightly to line up with the outer edge of the tender body.

 

I'm still undecided about whether to make the frame's cross braces shown in the drawing… not sure how visible they are.

 

 

 

Apologies for yet another very similar view of the tender. Those 'tabs' are looking a little bulky at the moment but will appear more subtle with

a coat of matt black. I'm starting to get itchy… would really like to crack on with weathering this beast!

 

 

 

Open water filler neck was stolen from my better half's old propelling pencil… she simply smiled and shook her head in despair! At the tender

front, the fire iron tunnel and the coaling opening have come at a cost – damage to the front of the tender frame!

 

 

 

More soon…

[Horsetan]

I surmise that most people never really added the cross-bracing strips, but once you know they're there, they become very difficult to ignore! I've only ever seen them specifically included on Brassmasters kits. I'm not sure if the Comet Stanier tender kits have them.

[Guest Max Stafford]

Here was me thinking that the Brassmaster kit alone produced a show-stopper. Mr M. Duck has clearly shown on this thread that this is merely the start...!

That said, there is absolutely nothing here that cannot be achieved without a little care and patience. You truly are maximising the potential of this model, with half a dozen waiting in the wings, you cab bet your boots I am watching this wonderful thread very closely. Wonderful work!

 

Dave.

[iak]

This thread gets better and better....

Splendid stuff B)

[cactustrain]

I agree with the other comments, Ryan, this is a very interesting thread.

 

I've done two of these Hornby tenders with the Brassmasters kit and you've certainly found some improvements that I never thought of. I don't think I'll be making any retrospective changes though as there's too much detail in place now.

 

A couple of things you may like to add - you can saw through the top of the tender tank lid and glue it back to show it open. The tank hole can be drilled out to make it look a bit more realistic:

 

 

 

Also, removing the pastic between the drag box and the fall plate improves the look, as does opening up the tool box door and coal space doors:

 

 

 

Looking forward to seeing more of your work.

 

Best wishes,

 

Michael

[bike2steam]

This thread gets better and better....

Splendid stuff

 

I also have to agree, but it's making me feel guilty that I haven't tackled mine yet -.

[Mucky Duck]

Thanks all yet again for the continuing encouragement, it's certainly spurring me on!

 

 

 

Here was me thinking that the Brassmaster kit alone produced a show-stopper. Mr M. Duck has clearly shown on this thread that this is merely the start...!

That said, there is absolutely nothing here that cannot be achieved without a little care and patience. You truly are maximising the potential of this model, with half a dozen waiting in the wings, you cab bet your boots I am watching this wonderful thread very closely. Wonderful work!

 

Dave.

Well, it certainly started off as a simple and straightforward upgrade with the most 'fettling' intended for the bulky tender sides but it seems that the more I did, the more I found out… and being shown what other people have done that I hadn't even noticed (Larry's tender valance)… just all adds up! Now I'm wondering where to draw the line before it becomes silly! As Horsetan suggests, the cross-bracing strips under the tender are possibly unnecessary. Anyway thanks Dave, I've seen (and been inspired by) your weathered locos too!

 

 

I agree with the other comments, Ryan, this is a very interesting thread.

 

I've done two of these Hornby tenders with the Brassmasters kit and you've certainly found some improvements that I never thought of. I don't think I'll be making any retrospective changes though as there's too much detail in place now.

 

A couple of things you may like to add - you can saw through the top of the tender tank lid and glue it back to show it open. The tank hole can be drilled out to make it look a bit more realistic:

 

 

 

Also, removing the pastic between the drag box and the fall plate improves the look, as does opening up the tool box door and coal space doors:

 

 

 

Looking forward to seeing more of your work.

 

Best wishes,

 

Michael

Thanks Michael. I did saw through the tender tank neck but I made a right mess of it, hence the bright blue replacement taken from the end of a propelling pencil. I salvaged the lid to glue back exactly as you have done. Now, removing the pastic between the drag box and the fall plate and opening up the tool box door and coal space doors… blimey, that's something I never thought about!

[Horsetan]

.....removing the plastic between the drag box and the fall plate and opening up the tool box door and coal space doors… blimey, that's something I never thought about!

 

But you have now! And I bet you're going to do the same thing too!

[Mucky Duck]

But you have now! And I bet you're going to do the same thing too!

I certainly was intending to but thinking about it… I would imagine that the coal space doors would never be opened until there was very little coal in the tender? I'll be modelling the tender fully-coaled.

[Mucky Duck]

 

Needless to say, there are many lessons being learnt on this project; one is complacency. When I first hacked off Hornby's 'generous' tender

valance I thought, hmm, not too bad – a tolerable amount of work involved doing this. Mistake!

 

Following Michael cactustrain's lead with his impressive tender work, despite being in two minds about it, I did indeed open up the the space

between the drag box and the fall plate (herein lies another lesson: look before you leap!) …and unwittingly opening up another can of worms,

which, once again, brought into sharp focus the shortcomings of this Hornby tender.

 

Whilst Michael's mods work very well in his photo, I'm assuming that it's because he hadn't removed the dreaded valance. My decision to

remove it has created a horrible gap between the narrow tender frame and body, which now needs covering with a thin plastic plate. My

enthusiasm for the tender half of this project is starting to wane as each mod throws up another challenge and already I've put in far more

work on this than on the loco itself. I shall forget about detailing within that space, hopefully very little of it, if anything, will be seen.

 

 

 

Fire irons were fashioned from 0.3 brass and glued into mock tunnel. Fire iron 'tunnel' will be covered with coal. I don't know what this

rail is (arrowed) but it's on the prototype Stanier tender, although the bracket above it on the real one sits slightly higher, so horizontal

part of the rail shouldn't be bent. Somewhere along the line, I knocked off one of the handles!

 

 

 

Water tank neck with lid glued in open position, shown here against an unmodified tender… it was one of my first ideas when I was

thinking about the tender mods but cactstrain beat me to it! .

 

 

 

To finish, I will be adding the drawbar, filling some battle scars, brimming with coal and adding a lamp – and that's as far as I'm prepared

to go with this tender. A coat of matt black tones down all new parts – and offers a better a comparison with the standard tender – before

weathering. Now that valance on the standard item really does stick out like a sore thumb!

 

 

 

Brassmasters axle boxes are much more prominent, emphasised in this view.

 

 

 

Despite the damage, which will be rectified, I'm particularly pleased with the thinning of the tender sides – an aspect of Hornby's tender that

bugged me even more than the valance! The modified rear platform will be flooded with rusty 'water' to disguise the mutilation.

 

 

 

Sunlight catches the edges, pinpointing the difference. Open coal space will be filled and fall plate will have plenty of coal dust, when finished.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, there's still evidence of Hornby's coupling which will be only partially hidden by screw-link coupling.

 

 

 

I have another half-dozen of these tenders to do at some point in the future. I know that I will be far more efficient, make fewer mistakes and

avoid the pitfalls I've experiencing with this but now I'm seriously wondering whether next time I should bite the bullet, discover whether I

have any metal kit-building skills and go for a Comet brass tender kit.

 

The final stages of the loco will be next…

 

 

 

[Horsetan]

You see......like Pringles, once you start, you can't stop!!

 

Lovely to see work like this.

[jwealleans]

Hear, hear.... not really my area of interest, but I've very much enjoyed this thread and like everyone else have got something out of it. The Comet tender kit was the first brass kit I ever built, with what must have been a clapped out 2W soldering iron and electrical solder.... and it still went together and looked OK. I suspect I'd be a bit critical of it now, bit it's in a box somewhere with the Dublo 8F it was built for. I can't see it would tax you more than this lot has... go for it.

[Pinkmouse]

The Comet tender kit was the first brass kit I ever built.... and it still went together and looked OK. ... go for it.

 

Indeed, a fine kit. The Brassmasters one looks even better, though it's probably not quite beginner level.

[Mucky Duck]

Going Loco!

 

I don't know why but I find it difficult to hop from work mode to modelling. I tend to need that initial rocket up the nether regions and it

doesn't help that I'm not exactly 'an hour here and an hour there' kind of modeller. I tend to like to get my teeth into a project over an

intense few days. Thus it was no surprise that after a very busy work period during which I had to put aside this project completely, that

I'd been struggling for motivation to get back into it… until I browsed through some recent RMweb topics which spurred me into action.

 

Yes, the tender work definitely had the Pringles effect, Horsetan but I think that I've now gone as far with it as I can cope with – I was

begining to feel dizzy and didn't know whether to 'stop startin' or start stoppin' as Vic Reeves and Bob Mortimer would say!

 

Preparing for with the final stages of the loco I thought it would be a simple case of adding extra wires and pipework but there's more than

meets the eye and it's surprising the level of essential* detail one misses until examining prototype pics much more deeply.

*Essential – Depending on how much of a rivet-counter one is.

 

There's a massive amount of missing detail beneath the Hornby cab that even Brassmasters doesn't cater for, not least, the inner panels

which appear to vaguely echo the cab's exterior leading edge profile.

 

 

Pondering how and with what to fabricate these, I went on a household search and found an old aluminium takeaway container with 'Slice

me up and use me for your loco' written all over it! It was easy to cut with a pair of scissors and to form into curves with the back edge of a

scalpel blade – yet not in the least bit flimsy, for this purpose at least. I cut out the two panels and roughened them up with fine wet and

dry to assist with glueing and painting. Making them was a bit of guesswork but as they're half hidden it's not such a big deal… as long as

they didn't fowl the chassis.

 

 

 

Earlier on in the thread it was pointed out to me that the shape towards the front end of the footplate on the Hornby model is wrong.

I changed my mind about making this section from plasticard and chose my new-found aluminium friend to rectify this. As there is a

natural join on the protoype in this area, I cut out a pair of overlays. As usual, they looked OK until viewed through the macro lens which

exposed them as being a bit too thick! Another 'fault' to be disguised by weathering.

 

 

 

More missing Hornby detail; the brackets attached to the chassis either side of the sandboxes are not picked up well in prototype pics.

Having nothing else suitable to use which didn't require a lot of fettling, once again I fabricated them from the now trusty aluminium.

Alas, it proved to be a bit too fragile for this purpose and the brackets tended to get knocked about and even broken (just visible in the pic)

with constant removal of the loco body. I took them off but I may add them again as a final touch when the body is back on permanently.

 

 

 

On to the pipework now. Brassmasters does a nice fret – separate from the Black 5 upgrade – but I found use for just one, which came in

handy for this pipe disappearing through the footplate behind the lubricators.

 

 

 

The larger bore pipework is plastic-covered and bare single-core copper wire, depending on the gauge required – 0.3 brass is used for the

tubing and fine copper wire for the finest diameter tubing. Near-side work shown here.

 

 

 

Offside footplate detail. The feeble moulding of what looked like a small lubricator (lower arrow) was scraped off and replaced with plastic

and copper wires. I've no idea what the 'tap' (upper arrow) is on the prototype, but I cut something resembling it from the Brassmasters

spare draincocks and fed a wire to it. That 'block' beside it came from a spare gravity feed.

 

 

 

Offside. The area below the cab had to be pure guesswork based on unsatisfactory pics! Believe it or not, I've been unable to find a single

close-up image from the web, books or otherwise, that shows this area in great detail. The best I could find was from Brassmasters' gallery

of close-up shots of a finished model which, unfortunately, looked to differ substantially from the prototype that I'm modelling. The arrow

points to the most difficult part(s) to work out and I think that I made the lever-type thing massively over-scale but I'll have to live with it…

or go completely doolally!!!

 

 

 

A couple of pipes added to the bufferbeam and behind the bang plate (for all I know, it may be a single pipe on the prototype). Finally the

front steps are glued in place but I think I should have given them the same treatment that I did with the tender steps – they look a bit too

beefy – I will add the their braces when everything is screwed back together.

 

The coupling looks over-sized to me but is still more life-like than ginormous Markits version! A lick of matt black and we'll soon be ready

for weathering! Much less work on the loco than that dreaded tender!

 

[iak]

Wonderful!!!

This thread gets better and better.

Rivet counting? I love it B)

[Rugd1022]

I've only just picked up on this thread but my, what an epic it's turning out to be! Been putting off buying a 'new' Hornby Black 5 for a long time, not really sure why, but I'm tempted to have a go with the Brassmasters kit, re-read this thread in more detail and see how far I get. I don't 'need' a Black 5 but a nicely improved one will sit well beside the new GW / WR 28xx'er. Looking at the photos of all the work done so far, I'm surpised just how much can be added above the running plate alone! The last photo in post #45 already looks the business...

 

Inspiring stuff B)

 

Nidge

[Mucky Duck]

Quickie update…

 

Looking more like a 'proper engine' now, prior to being re-numbered – though you can't really see the mods too well I thought I'd stick these

pics in anyway. I wasn't exactly careful coating the new parts with matt black and the bufferbeam with gloss red (even got some on the wheel

treads, which I'll clean off) but it doesn't matter as this baby's in for some serious weathering… which will be another virgin experience!

 

 

Click to enlarge

[BR(W)]

Quickie update…

 

Looking more like a 'proper engine' now, prior to being re-numbered – though you can't really see the mods too well I thought I'd stick these

pics in anyway. I wasn't exactly careful coating the new parts with matt black and the bufferbeam with gloss red (even got some on the wheel

treads, which I'll clean off) but it doesn't matter as this baby's in for some serious weathering… which will be another virgin experience!

 

Hello, MD.

 

I've been following this excellent piece of work since the beginning, and I must thank you for sharing it with us. You will. though, remember to remove the vacuum pump operating arm from the left-hand crosshead, won't you? The pump and its paraphernalia were, of course, omitted from 1938 onwards, with previous batches being modified when shopped (although the pump will probably long since have given up the ghost).

 

Thanks again for sharing your experiences, your impressive skills and, not least, your dauntless perseverance!

 

Kind regards,

 

BR(W).

[Mucky Duck]

Hello, MD.

 

I've been following this excellent piece of work since the beginning, and I must thank you for sharing it with us. You will. though, remember to remove the vacuum pump operating arm from the left-hand crosshead, won't you? The pump and its paraphernalia were, of course, omitted from 1938 onwards, with previous batches being modified when shopped (although the pump will probably long since have given up the ghost).

 

Thanks again for sharing your experiences, your impressive skills and, not least, your dauntless perseverance!

 

Kind regards,

 

BR(W).

 

Useful information is just as highly appreciated as the kind comments that I've been receiving – and I've certainly learned much on this

project as a result – so, thank you for pointing that out to me, BR(W). Obviously, I still have much to learn about the Black 5 and when I

worked out, eventually, the culprit to which you referred (arrowed below), I realised that I had previously ignored it, assuming that the

chassis was correct for my prototype 44890. Not having a decent nearside image of this loco didn't help.

 

The trouble is that the vacuum pump operating arm isn't removable – it looks like it's part of the casting – so I think my best option is to

swap the chassis with one of my others and add the Brassmasters dummy frames, motion bracket and draincocks to the correct one!

 

It's a blessing in disguise, there are rivets on the driving wheel balance weights just about detectable on another photo of said prototype,

which I found recently and Brassmasters confirm that long-firebox engines ought to have these rivetted balance weights, which my

model's current chassis clearly does not… another oversight on my part!

 

Not exactly back to the drawing board but I certainly shan't be weathering the beast this weekend, as eagerly anticipated.