hornby class 117?

[Jonty]

just wondering why Hornby havn't yet released the popular class 117. like they did with the class 156 they could use the lima moulds but change the motor bogie?

thanks

Jonathan

[Fat Controller]

just wondering why Hornby havn't yet released the popular class 117. like they did with the class 156 they could use the lima moulds but change the motor bogie?

thanks

Jonathan

Apparently, when Lima first did the bubble-car, they modified the existing tooling for the 117 to do so, and did so in such a way that they couldn't be converted back. It would be nice if either Hornby or Bachmann did one of the 'Suburban' type units, but it would entail starting from scratch.

Brian

[John M Upton]

...and quite frankly starting from scratch would be a far more preferable route to a new 117 as the old Lima one had many problems. OK not totally insurmountable with a lot of work and they provided the basis for countless Craftsman conversion kits over the years but even still this is one model from the historical past of railway modelling that should forever remain no more than an uncomfortable memory. Pity they didn't take the same approach (or better still a ten pound sledgehammer across the face of the mould) to the old Lima Deltic!!

[Jonty]

haha, i didnt know that Lima had modified the tooling. However, the class 156 is just the same mould which has been re-liveried and no-one has too many problems with that. Plus the class 117 carried a range of liveries, i am sure i would buy one if Hornby re-released one. did lima make a 3 car, or sell the centre car separetly ?

thanks

Jonathan

[backwaterscotland]

haha, i didnt know that Lima had modified the tooling. However, the class 156 is just the same mould which has been re-liveried and no-one has too many problems with that. Plus the class 117 carried a range of liveries, i am sure i would buy one if Hornby re-released one. did lima make a 3 car, or sell the centre car separetly ?

thanks

Jonathan

 

The main problem with the Lima 117 is that they only produced a DMBS (driving car with brake compartment) and TS/TC (Centre car) so you have to convert a DMBS to create a DMS (Driving car without Brake Compartment) to create a 3-car set.

 

The 156 Bodyshell and bogies are pretty good - shame about the solid chassis moulding though.

 

Andy B)

[westerner]

Silver Fox do a conversion for that.

 

[Fat Controller]

haha, i didnt know that Lima had modified the tooling. However, the class 156 is just the same mould which has been re-liveried and no-one has too many problems with that. Plus the class 117 carried a range of liveries, i am sure i would buy one if Hornby re-released one. did lima make a 3 car, or sell the centre car separetly ?

thanks

Jonathan

The problem being that the old moulds no longer exist.....

[kernowtim]

Lima did originally sell the 117 dmu as individual cars as well as in a train set

so there may be a few still about

[craigwelsh]

Lima did originally sell the 117 dmu as individual cars as well as in a train set

so there may be a few still about

Absolutely hundreds of the things about, cheap on eBay too now that the bottom dropped out of the Lima collectors market.

 

The 117 suffered from rubbish glazing as well compared to the 121 where they fitted semi flush glazing.

 

With Bachmann now on their second DMU hopefully we'll see an attempt at the 116/117 length of vehicle sometime in the future.

[NickL2008]

I also would like to see a new 117 produced, even though I have completely rebuilt the underframe here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=24431&p=497015&hilit=158757#p497015 , It would be nice for a Manufacturer to step forward and maybe produce one of those lovely DMU's! Although as mentioned the Lima 121 Tooling is completely different, so a new mould would have to be made and they arnt cheap!

Plus side was the 121 had a more correct looking headcode box on the roof than the 117 and the flush glazing. I say we pester Hornby until they do make one

 

NL

[dibber25]

Frankly I doubt very much these old chestnuts about using old tools to make new ones. The business of putting steel back into a tool and machining it out again to change detail is very expensive. Much more likely that the old 117 tools do still exist but are old, worn and not worth reviving. Hornby would want to do it correctly, too, and that would mean tooling-up a DMS body which, to match the existing cars would be a 2010 tool to 1980 standards. I think people are being much too harsh about this old model. Just as the Tri-ang and Kitmaster Blue Pullmans are worth doing a bit of work on if you want a Blue Pullman, so is the 117. The Silver Fox DMS conversion is a simple job, and so is fitting SE Flushglaze. The headcode boxes can be remodelled with a bit of Plastic Padding. I have a 117 done in the GWR150 chocolate and cream and I'm really pleased with it. Sure, you can nit-pick the details, and the wheels are too small. I have a nearly-finished example in dark green with whiskers, too. It needs the paint and glazing finishing. I'm not likely to get around to it, so if the original poster wants to make me an offer......

CHRIS LEIGH

[Jonty]

Plus side was the 121 had a more correct looking headcode box on the roof than the 117 and the flush glazing. I say we pester Hornby until they do make one

 

thats the attitude i was going to take! i am sure it could not be too hard for them to either find and upgrade the mould, or modify the 121. For lima the 117 proved a popular model (i think) so a petition to Hornby might get their creative juices flowing. However Chris is in the Model railway business so i wouldnt knwo as much as he does about moulds etc.

[NickL2008]

Yeah changing the tooling is expensive indeed! MR once did a peice on how much tooling costs and it certainly isnt cheap so I for one can understand the Manufacturers approach regarding new models, But Perhaps if the demand is there they could possible at least consider it, relating back to my "Pester" theory I think some modellers would be happy to pay out the modeartly priced Ebay prices these days for a second hand Lima Example, but when the price rises to three figures you do wonder if a model dating from the 90s and one that is nowhere near todays standards and that requires alot of work is worth paying out ??100+ for, whereas possibly for the same amount of money you could have the same model but higher spec from a Company like Bachmann and Hornby who have proved it can be done, I mean theyve done the 108, and 153 each so why not a 117 or a similar member of the class that is still popular with modellers... Chris your article was indeed good, and the history as well by mr Forsyth added my interest to the article! I basically carried out the method you mentioned about on my 117 and even still have the copy sat in my pile of books . Perhaps someone could do another survey/Wishlist and forward it to the manufactuers?

[Ravenser]

The 121 sells and is still in traffic in a limited way. Hornby are not going to try reversing the mould alterations (I suspect they would have amounted to a new end) and lose the existing model from their range.

 

The only way forward for a high density suburban DMU is an all new model. The view's been expressed before that the units look too similar to the low density 108 to sell well now

[Jonty]

hi,

thats a good and really valid point about the class 121 remaining in traffic. I unforunately was not a model railway enthusiast when Lima were a leading manufacturer, and was therefore never able to obtain their models when they were released...

 

Did Lima frequently bring out different liveried DMU's (as far as i'm aware they made a class 101, 117, 121 and 156)

 

another query would be whether Hornby could release their class 101 in the Lima Regional Railways livery???

 

thanks,

Jonathan

[Dave47549]

.

[railroadbill]

I too converted a 117 2 car unit into a 121 (many years ago). Just needed a very fine cut round the spare cab and rear of vehicle to be converted. Dug it out more recently and fitted flush glazing which really improved the appearance. But my friend's Hornby 121 has the edge for smooth running (as you'd expect). A useful unit for the layout's new branch, though..but I think it would be a shame to go back to the old 117 after Bachmann's wonderful 108. (Those interior lights... )

[D6975]

I did a similar job, unpowered driving car plus spare body into a 122. A little more work involved, but not too difficult. I later fitted a powered chassis when Beatties were flogging off 121s prior to closing down in Bristol.

[Adrian Wintle]

Frankly I doubt very much these old chestnuts about using old tools to make new ones. The business of putting steel back into a tool and machining it out again to change detail is very expensive.

 

However, it is more expensive to create a new tool from scratch. I expect that they did re-use the 117 tooling to create the 121, probably adding a new part for the rear cab rather than re-machining the rear, discarding the original rear portion in the process. Airfix did a similar thing with their Canberra, re-using the B.6 tooling to create the B-57 version, which prevented them from making any more B.6 versions, even when it became more popular than the B-57.

 

The high cost of creating a high pressure injection mould from scratch is why some manufacturers use a lot of forethought in designing these tools so that different versions can be created from the same tool by substituting different modular sections.

 

Adrian

[westerner]

This is my fettled 117 in original condition, no corridor connectios and no centre stripe, on the morning Exeter to

Kingsbridge stopper

 

 

[21C123]

Hi all

 

comparing a Lima 121 and 117 DMBS:

 

The headcode appears bigger on the 121

the first window is smaller on the 121

all of the moulded handrails are smaller on the 121

on the 117 the door lines are "scribed" in

on the 121 the door lines are raised lines

on the 117 the roof weld lines are raised

on the 121 the roof weld lines are recessed or cribed in.

 

plus the lower door hinge and bump stops are in different places vertically and the windows appear to be different sizes vertically.

 

I would say the mould wasn't altered but a new one made.

 

 

hope this helps

 

Roger

[lapford34102]

would say the mould wasn't altered but a new one made

 

At the time the Lima 121 first appeared we were told the body mould had been irrevocably altered from the 117.

I can't think of any other 64' RTR DMU's around so there does appear to be a gap in the market. Apart form the 116/117/118's there the 114s, 119's and 120's plus the Inter City, Scottish and Trans Pennine. Now I know there are a lot of differences between these and that for example one chassis moulding wouldn't suit all of them and that's without going into body profiles and the rest the gap is there. The diesel classes are being progressively mopped up so they'll have to move onto DMU's - I hope.

 

The 117 can be the basis of a good model and you can take it as far as you want. All it needs is a bit of modelling applied and as a starter project not bad.

Here's my 116 conversion from a little while ago.

 

The view's been expressed before that the units look too similar to the low density 108 to sell well now

That was probably a valid argument 20+ years ago but think the buyers are now a lot more detail savvy now.

 

Stu

[37114]

I think any new model would have to be to such a high standard to sell well against the glut of secondhand 117's about, and as others have said the Lima one is easliy improved, I have one that has the silver fox sides, new headocde boxes and flush glazing and it serves my needs. I am not convinced that a "108" spec modern model would be enough to convince me to get rid of my Lima one.

 

 

[vikingsmb]

I think any new model would have to be to such a high standard to sell well against the glut of secondhand 117's about, and as others have said the Lima one is easliy improved, I have one that has the silver fox sides, new headocde boxes and flush glazing and it serves my needs. I am not convinced that a "108" spec modern model would be enough to convince me to get rid of my Lima one.

 

 

agree with you on that one

I have about five lima 117s 4 in blue and 1 in green

I improved the running by taking the traction tyres off and cleaning the spot where they were, (using fibre pencil) and cleaning pickups, communtator and wheels with fibre pencil

they all run and I have 2 121's 1 lima (blue) and 1 Hornby blue with yellow cabs

as well, as my layout is 1968

but I wish they would bring out a 116 or 115

cheers

[dmustu]

I think any new model would have to be to such a high standard to sell well against the glut of secondhand 117's about, and as others have said the Lima one is easliy improved, I have one that has the silver fox sides, new headocde boxes and flush glazing and it serves my needs. I am not convinced that a "108" spec modern model would be enough to convince me to get rid of my Lima one.

 

 

 

 

While this is true in many cases, how many modellers have replaced their lima 37s and 47s with new Bachmann/Heljan/vitrains ones? I have a few lima 117s too, and would only be to glad to replace them with a '108 spec' class 117 (or similar). Even with improvements to the lima 117 such as flush glazing, new headcode boxex, etc, the body shape still looks wrong, as does the cab fronts, and not forgetting the undersize bogies, and high ride hight.

 

Given how similar the 116/117/118 types are, it would only need changes to the front end to make all 3 classes of driving car, in a similar fashion to what Bachmann already do with their 108. Only difference would be with the center car for the 116, which was different from the others, but these were largely scrapped in the 80s due to asbestos.

 

I think that re-introducing the ex-lima 117 back into the range would be a backwards step, and possibly put off anyone thinking of producing a new one from doing so.