Driving on the FR

[coachmann]

ADMIN: This topic has been split from the WHR handbags thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/15775-handbags-at-dawn-on-the-welsh-highland-again/page__pid__236280__st__200#entry236280 and starts here somewhat arbitrarily (Coachmann is not the OP).

Sunday I'm driving Blanche pulling the train whilst Lyd poses in front!

Tis you Paul....?

 

Someone had told me 'Lyd' made a powerful sound as she pulled away from Tan-Y-Bwylch and so I walked to the end of Tanygrisiau to watch the train pull away. Sure enough, 'Lyd' sounded great.

[ngtrains.com]

Sunday I'm driving Blanche pulling the train whilst Lyd poses in front!

Tis you Paul....?

 

Nope, Blanche is left hand drive. You can't see me, the body is James Hamlin, fireman for the day.

Have a look at the You Tube link below. I am driving Blanche pulling 10 cars and pushing Lyd out of Tan-y-Bwlch whilst the latter makes a slippery job of it. All we could smell in Blanche was burning metal!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5Ba2iC15UM&feature=related

 

As someone is bound to ask - Lyd still has some commissioning/teething troubles to sort out one of which is a digital regulator, open or closed seem to be the options at the moment making finesse impossible

[Oldddudders]

As someone is bound to ask - Lyd still has some commissioning/teething troubles to sort out one of which is a digital regulator, open or closed seem to be the options at the moment making finesse impossible

A digital regulator? DCC on the narrow gauge? What are the perceived advantages of such a gismo over what seemed to work quite well since about 1825?

[ngtrains.com]

What are the perceived advantages of such a gismo over what seemed to work quite well since about 1825?

None whatsoever.

 

I though I made it clear enough that the problem was in the category of teething trouble and would be fixed. Then again this entire thread is mostly sh!t stirring by people with no influence in something that's nowt to do with them. ADMIN - this comment referred to the WHR Handbags thread from which this was split (see note on OP above).

The trip in the video is only Lyd's fourth or fifth trip up the line and only its third with a decent load on the back. All of these loaded trip were over the Vintage Weekend giving no opportunity to do anything about an identified problem. The problem is that the load shows there is a mismatch between the pilot and main valve and that the leverage provided by both the regulator handle and the internal linkage in the dome do not provide adequate control. These were also, I believe, the first runs since it had its boiler pressure increased to the planned 200psi which exacerbated the problem.

 

On opening the regulator to full pilot valve you get only 25 - 30 psi in the valve chests and then because of the leverage issues the force required to open the main valve is such that it doesn't just crack open but opens to the extent that valve chest pressure leaps up to 150 psi. If it doesn't slip, having got the main valve open, you can ease it down and reduce the valve chest pressure to a sensible pressure and continue to accelerate without slipping. However, Tan-y-Bwlch is a sod of a place to get away from at the best of times due the combination of gradient, curvature and having sat there spilling water everywhere such that the available adhesion won't allow a sudden pressure change like you get at the moment.

 

There are a number of other things still to be sorted out as well. Its steaming isn't right yet, neither is its oil burner and these things are only really sorted out with running an engine as its a balance between the draught the exhaust produces and settings on the burner. Evidence so far suggest its not creating enough smoke box vacuum and will probably have to be fitted with a taper liner to its chimney and a petticoat on the end of it. These things are resolved by systematically changing one parameter at a time so you can understand what you've changed and go back a step if you make it worse.

 

Once these issues are sorted it would appear that Lyd is going to be a cracking machine. It appears to be very strong if you can stop it slipping and on the run it needs holding back. Every engine has a happy speed, a speed it like to settle at if you let it, and Lyd likes doing 24mph which is a bit of a pain with a line speed of 20mph on the FR.

 

I am looking forward to getting a go with it

[Oldddudders]

None whatsoever.

 

I though I made it clear enough that the problem was in the category of teething trouble and would be fixed. Then again this entire thread is mostly sh!t stirring by people with no influence in something that's nowt to do with them.

Having started this thread the "stirring by people with no influence in something that's nowt to do with them" presumably includes me. Thankyou. However, my question above, was why a new steam loco, built to reflect heritage values, would be fitted with a digital rather than mechanical regulator, something unthinkable when its predecessors were built. Whether the regulator actually works straight out of the box, or needs adjusting in the light of experience on the road, is not and was not the question. Perhaps someone else has the knowledge to answer it?

[bigd]

I think ngtrains meant a binary regulator.

You have 0 or 1, but nothing in between!

[ngtrains.com]

By digital regulator I meant that it had two states ON or OFF and next to no easily obtained intermediate state.

 

It is not some new fangled DCC digital doins but a traditional sliding valve regulator which still needs setting up and refining to optimise its operation.

 

I've just tried and failed to find a picture I know I have somewhere of the regulator on one of the other FR engines which would have made it easier to explain so I'll have to have a go at doing it in text alone [if only to make the picture turn up the moment I press the send button]

 

The regulator is mounted as high as possible in the dome so as to raise it above the boiler water level to try an ensure that it only gets steam and not water.

 

The regulator is a two stage thing consisting of Pilot and Main Valve. The pilot and main valves are basically plates which sit on top of each other and which sit against the port face of the J pipe [the fixed pipe to the cylinders high up in the dome]. The pilot valve sits on the face of the main valve which sits on the port face. As you open the regulator by moving the handle in the cab the pilot valve gradually opens a tapered opening for steam to pass from the boiler to the cylinders. The point of the tapered opening is to get a gradual but non linear increase in the amount of steam going to the cylinders.

 

When that orifice is fully exposed the engine is in full pilot valve and the body of the pilot valve is now hard against a stop on the body of the main valve.

 

Further movement of the regulator handle now pushes the pilot valve body hard against this stop and gradually pulls the main valve open allowing much more steam to access the cylinders but this doesn't have a taper to its orifice as pilot valve should have given you the finesse you need and you should now be moving along quite nicely.

 

Incidentally, to go back to pilot valve you have to totally close the regulator and then re-open it in pilot to make sure you returned the main valve to the start position.

 

The regulator lives in the pressurised boiler and boiler pressure acts on the regulator body to hold it hard against the port face and because the pressure beyond the regulator is at a lower pressure than the boiler. This force also provides a resistance to the regulator moving.

 

To move the actual valve you have a handle in the cab which rotates a rod that runs into the boiler. This rod has a crank on it and a linkage up to the regulator valve up in the dome. The length of the handle in the cab and of the linkage between the rod and the valve determine the mechanical advantage your hand has for moving the valve.

 

In an ideal world, you open the pilot valve and it gives you enough steam to allow initially a controllable start and then to accelerate a typical train up to a decent speed. Small adjustments are typically done by tapping the handle in the direction, more or less, you want to go in. If you need to go faster you can then ease it in to main valve [by hitting it a bit harder] and you should be able to increase the valve chest pressure by as little as 5 psi. Even with a well designed regulator like Blanche has this 5 psi can be just too much and the act of going to main valve can provoke a slip.

 

In Lyd it has become apparent that.....

1. The pilot valve isn't big enough
   
2. The step in pressure between full pilot and minimum main valve is too much
   
3. The control linkages don't give the driver enough mechanical advantage to control the valves with finesse
   

 

Lyd was initially commissioned with its boiler pressure set to 160 psi and these faults weren't as apparent. It has now had its boiler pressure set to 200 psi which has increased the effect of the difference between full pilot and minimum main valve and has also increased the force resisting movement of the valves making the control even harder. This only became apparent over the Vintage Weekend as these were its first passenger runs at the new pressure.

 

The fixes, quite possibly done by now, are to increase the size of the pilot valve to and to alter the leverage in the linkages. The engine was last used on Sunday and is booked to work the last weekend of the month so it will be attended to before then now its gone properly cold [which will have taken until Wednesday]

 

I hope that makes it clearer. I made the mistake of assuming some knowledge of how a steam engine works, something I take for granted having worked with the FR engines since 1977, driving them since 1987 and having led teams rebuilding Blanche and Merddin Emrys. I would be happy to continue this discussion but can we please do so under a new heading as the discussion has nothing to do with handbags and the general consensus since recent regime change is that peace maybe breaking out with time being the only applicable medicine for now. It won't help to keep boosting this topic to the top of the listing whilst actually discussing nothing to do with handbags

[ngtrains.com]

Thank you Mod 6. High time the handbags were put away

[Mod6]

Then again this entire thread is mostly sh!t stirring by people with no influence in something that's nowt to do with them.

 

Actually I think that's quite insulting to the overall membership and those who have contributed to this (the WHR Handbags) thread. They may have 'no influence' but it is nevertheless sweepingly dismissive to say it is 'nothing to do with them'. Many will be your actual and potential future visitors for a start, and many will have an interest and ability to contribute to a discussion.

 

I would be happy to continue this discussion but can we please do so under a new heading as the discussion has nothing to do with handbags and the general consensus since recent regime change is that peace maybe breaking out with time being the only applicable medicine for now. It won't help to keep boosting this topic to the top of the listing whilst actually discussing nothing to do with handbags

 

Well there was nothing to stop you starting a topic to do just that! I've split off the latter posts to this one which I trust is to your satisfaction.

[PhilH]

On opening the regulator to full pilot valve you get only 25 - 30 psi in the valve chests and then because of the leverage issues the force required to open the main valve is such that it doesn't just crack open but opens to the extent that valve chest pressure leaps up to 150 psi. If it doesn't slip, having got the main valve open, you can ease it down and reduce the valve chest pressure to a sensible pressure and continue to accelerate without slipping. However, Tan-y-Bwlch is a sod of a place to get away from at the best of times due the combination of gradient, curvature and having sat there spilling water everywhere such that the available adhesion won't allow a sudden pressure change like you get at the moment.

 

What happens if you pull it up to nearly mid gear before trying to get 2nd valve, then let it out again when you get it - that's what we have to do on heaps locos such as Lord Nelson.

[ngtrains.com]

What happens if you pull it up to nearly mid gear before trying to get 2nd valve, then let it out again when you get it - that's what we have to do on heaps locos such as Lord Nelson.

 

It damn near stops and you need it back in pilot valve. The pilot valve is so undersized you can't get going enough to have some momentum to stand a mid gear move. Also as its all new and stiff you need superman along to work the reverser anyway

[PhilH]

Ah, ok thanks.

[coachmann]

I though I made it clear enough that the problem was in the category of teething trouble and would be fixed. Then again this entire thread is mostly sh!t stirring by people with no influence in something that's nowt to do with them.

Since moving this section on FR locomotives from the Welsh Highland 'handbags' thread, the above paragraph looks very much out of place and reflects badly on me now that it looks as if I am the OP.....

 

ADMIN: the quote is nothing to do with Coachmann - explanation attached to OP

[Oldddudders]

Thanks from me, too, to Mod 6 for separating the subject out. Evidently I am unique among 10,000 RMWebbers in not understanding this footplate term. How stupid am I? My footplate experience - a fortnight in 1974 - consisted of sitting in the right hand seat of EMUs, ELs, EDLs and DELs. You don't need to understand all the workings of something to appreciate it.

[ngtrains.com]

Olddudders,

 

I don't recall suggesting you were stupid and have gone out of my way to explain in detail the issue with the regulator on Lyd and explained how it should be and what it does now.

 

My fault was to use terms I have heard to describe its operation by those who were actually trying to operate it on the day. I am afraid that with day to day operations of these railways a slang based on familiarity with the subject develops and it is all too easy to forget that others aren't a party to that slang. I am sure some of it is part of creating an "in" group from the community operating these railways. They also tend to be railway specific because most of the slang terms originate from peculiarities of the railway.

 

As you probably know the FR for many years operated a fleet in which all the steam engines were oil burners. You could (and can) regularly hear fuelling referred to as "filling them up with petrol" or "it ran out of petrol" [ref Lyd first trial in August] when petrol is that last thing they get fed. They get oil, often as a waste from an industrial process, of a consistency slightly gloopier than diesel.

 

Nowadays you still hear that but you'll also here reference to putting some rock on it since we now have coal burners too. Fetching or shunting the carriages will be referred as getting the trucks when it has nothing to do with freight vehicles.

 

The engines all tend to get nicknames too which we use on a daily basis instead of their plated names...

David Lloyd George = The Soup Dragon or Soupy - when its paint was new it was the same colour as the nasty powdered tomato soup we had at the time

Earl of Merioneth = The Square - based on its appearance

Blanche = Ricket Bold Colliery Rainhill trials recreation, replica Rocket falls off the track [a lot], Guardian reports it, spells Rocket as Ricket on the same day Blanche derailed twice. Blanche becomes Ricket

Linda = Nivelty well we had started on the Rainhill participants with Ricket so carried on

 

So, no slight was intended so please don't take offence. I will try to be clearer if I write more

[Oldddudders]

Thanks for that. Elsewhere on RMWeb, we have competent persons writing about their own areas of expertise. You, and other footplate people like Phil H, might like to wonder if a thread - or series of threads - about what you do and how it's done, might be interesting to the RMWeb as a whole. I really can't be the only person who doesn't understand how a steam loco works - and I started numbersnatching in 1960!

 

In 38 years on BR, I certainly got used to using the vernacular. Even a list of terms used on the FR might be of interest to others. All info is interesting to someone!

[PhilH]

Thanks for that. Elsewhere on RMWeb, we have competent persons writing about their own areas of expertise. You, and other footplate people like Phil H, might like to wonder if a thread - or series of threads - about what you do and how it's done, might be interesting to the RMWeb as a whole. I really can't be the only person who doesn't understand how a steam loco works - and I started numbersnatching in 1960!

 

I'm not so sure there is that much interest in articles about driving steam engines in preservation. Sure, people like tales about the old boys in BR days etc. but us charlatans who puff up and down our 10 miles of track at 25-ish mph don't always attract any attention on here. I'll give you an example - I once posted a video taken on the footplate of me getting a Merchant Navy under way and then taking it up the line. Me and two others showed an interest...

 

I'm quite happy to explain things and answer questions if asked, but past experience has shown me that it's a waste of time and effort to just post stuff without enquiry.

[Oldddudders]

I'm not so sure there is that much interest in articles about driving steam engines in preservation. Sure, people like tales about the old boys in BR days etc. but us charlatans who puff up and down our 10 miles of track at 25-ish mph don't always attract any attention on here. I'll give you an example - I once posted a video taken on the footplate of me getting a Merchant Navy under way and then taking it up the line. Me and two others showed an interest...

 

I'm quite happy to explain things and answer questions if asked, but past experience has shown me that it's a waste of time and effort to just post stuff without enquiry.

Having watched so many Bulleid Pacifics spin their wheels on the crossovers at Waterloo, I recognise there is an art to getting 'em on the move. But Paul's description of the operation of the regulator is the first I have ever seen. [Knowing your interest in matters US - is that what they call the Johnson Lever?] There are so many parts of the loco that you guys have to understand to be fit for your job - weekend volunteer or not. Drain cocks, superheaters, valve-gear, rocking grates, injectors - a zillion others. Used to share an office with a bloke who'd been Shedmaster at Dorchester - but we never talked about the technicalities of those days. I think a lot of people looked at Andy Y's day as your guest with envy. Surely more info about your office might be fun?

[PhilH]

Well, maybe, but I still remain to be convinced plus, for myself, I wouldn't know what people want or where to start.

 

Do they really want to know that an injector has to convert pressure energy to velocity energy then back again to be able to work?

[coachmann]

Had steam not ended so abruptly I don't think there would be half so many books on the subject today. It was just a way of earning a crust at the time and often fell far short of exciting! I did less than a year, but because I was a left-handed and firing LH drive engines came easily, I experienced a lot on the road because I was useful. I loved it much of the time, but I remember the lads who talked about their experiences in the pub were given a wide berth....

[Oldddudders]

Well, maybe, but I still remain to be convinced plus, for myself, I wouldn't know what people want or where to start.

 

Do they really want to know that an injector has to convert pressure energy to velocity energy then back again to be able to work?

Well, maybe that's a bit techie? If you expained what it achieves, rather than the exact scientific principles used in its design you might keep a reader or two more? Without the injector, this would happen, this wouldn't happen. Steam engines usually have two, because - that sort of approach. I mean, we all know you pour water and coal in one end, and steam emerges somewhere else, going via the cylinders, where etc. A sort of narrative, perhaps? Boiler stays are topical, because a rather new steam loco seemed to suffer a few failures of these things - but what do they do? What do they look like? Why don't US locos have fusible plugs? What is the meaning of life? Hey - it's Saturday night! Sleep well!

[lankyphil]

Why don't US locos have fusible plugs?

 

Good question... Why not? Surely that's a fairly major safety thing?

 

What is the meaning of life?

 

42 obviously!

[Welly]

Well, maybe that's a bit techie? If you expained what it achieves,

 

The injector is the means of getting the water into the boiler at working pressure.

 

May I recommend this book Steam Locomotive Handbook for a more in depth understanding of steam locomotives? It explains quite well with diagrams how different parts of the steam loco works, in fact it was issued to BR loco staff.

[Mod6]

Er, we seem to be departing from driving on the FR to more general discussions on how a steam loco works. No problem with that, but it should be a new topic please.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm not so sure there is that much interest in articles about driving steam engines in preservation. Sure, people like tales about the old boys in BR days etc. but us charlatans who puff up and down our 10 miles of track at 25-ish mph don't always attract any attention on here. I'll give you an example - I once posted a video taken on the footplate of me getting a Merchant Navy under way and then taking it up the line. Me and two others showed an interest...

 

 

 

Well it is 'small does' railway in a way - but on an invited trip on the S160 a good few years back I still managed to overestimate the depth of the fire and finish up with the loco stopped for a blow having darned near blacked it out

 

It isn't the same as mainline footplate work, no doubt of that, but it's still managing and understanding machines which have their own peculiarities and complexities so it requires a skill as well as knowledge. So don't underestimate it.