Mixed doubles - the most unlikely pairings pre-1968

[Guest Phil]

I was looking through some books at a Garden Centre last Sunday. You know the kind that are sold in these places, because I cannot recall which one it was now !!!! all I can remember is it was a book of monochrome photos of the final years of BR steam, a lot from the Northwest but also a lot from around Chester.

 

Two photos in particular, jumped out at me. One was of "clan" 72006 coupled to an unidentified "flat tendered" Hall at Chester. The photographer who I believe was the fireman, had worked a local from Manchester to Chester, the next leg being to run light to Mold Junction to work a freight back to Patricroft. The author described how the drivers were none to keen with the signalman's idea of coupling locos together to save paths between Chester and Mold and was apparently arguing against coupling to the Hall which stood in front of them. I was struck by how unusual a pairing a clan and a Hall might have been in steam days - albeit only light engines coupled to me.

 

A similar but probably (IMHO) more common pairing was Castle 7019 coupled to Patriot 45527 dated 7th June 1962. These locos were presumably on a similar working.

[pH]

I remember seeing a photo in 'Modern Railways' about 1963/4 (don't ask me what happened last week! ) of a double-headed goods leaving the loops at Shap summit, going north. The pilot was an Ivatt Class 2 mogul (a 'Mickey Mouse'); the train engine was a rebuilt Patriot, running tender-first!

 

WAC Smith has a photo in "Renfrewshire's Last Days of Steam" of a car sleeper on Neilston bank, headed by Jubilee 45727 and A3 60086.

[jamie92208]

There were also quite often steam/diesel pairings around at that time. In 66/67 the oil trains from Heysham to Leeds were initially hauled by 2 9f's then it became one 9F and a class 25. There didn't seem to be any rule as to which went at the front. As an aside this used to be one of the last steam hauled freights that went through Leeds City Station and the sight and sound of 2 9f's going through crowded platforms whilst pouring on the power to get up Marsh lane bank was a marvellous experience.

 

Jamie

[10800]

Not sure where I read/heard it, but I seem to remember a story of a WD piloting a failed Bulleid Pacific into Victoria on the Golden Arrow in the early 50s.

[melmerby]

How about a "Grange" piloting a pair of (working) baby hydraulics (D6300s?)

 

Keith

[seahorse]

For a short period there was a regular train from Newton Abbot to Plymouth double-headed King + King.

Modellers, remember that on the Western, the train engine kept the headlamps, so the pilot ran second

[The Stationmaster]

 

Modellers, remember that on the Western, the train engine kept the headlamps, so the pilot ran second

 

 

Hmm, it was a bit complicated, and not quite as restrictive, as that. Generally, except when assisting a 'King', any 4-4-0 or 4-6-0 could be coupled in front of the train engine.

 

In addition 43XX (and all variants thereof) plus large wheeled prairie (2-6-2) tanks were permitted to assist in front - other than in front of a 'King' - on a number of sections of route such as parts of the South Devon banks and through the Severn Tunnel. Otherwise, and prior to October 1948, they and all other types of loco (i.e. not a 4-4-0 or 4-6-0) had to go inside unless they were the same type as the train engine.

 

In earlier Instructions tank engines of the 0-6-0, 2-4-0, and 0-4-2 wheel arrangements always had to go inside the leading engine whether they were the train engine or the assisting engine.

[melmerby]

For a short period there was a regular train from Newton Abbot to Plymouth double-headed King + King.

Modellers, remember that on the Western, the train engine kept the headlamps, so the pilot ran second

 

 

That wouldn't have applied with the Type 22/Grange pairing as the diesels were the "train engine" and the Grange was the pilot (on the front).

Have also seen Granges and Halls piloting a Warship, again the Warship was the train engine and the kettle was put on the front.

 

(King + King wasn't allowed on the GWR according to the General Appendix 1936)

 

Keith

[The Stationmaster]

That wouldn't have applied with the Type 22/Grange pairing as the diesels were the "train engine" and the Grange was the pilot (on the front).

Have also seen Granges and Halls piloting a Warship, again the Warship was the train engine and the kettle was put on the front.

 

(King + King wasn't allowed on the GWR according to the General Appendix 1936)

 

Keith

 

Taking the latter point first - absolutely correct. But from October 1948 two 'King' class locomtives were permitted to run coupled together over any section of route where the class was normally permitted.

 

As far as the provision of an assisting engine (i.e. double-heading) with diesels was concerned the original Instructions permitted any GW design 4-6-0 to assist or be assisted by diesel hydraulic locos (n.b this original Instruction only covered the West Country except for assisting failed diesel hydraulics, which was permitted anywhere on the WR).

 

I don't have full details of later changes but from around 1965ish a steam loco assisting a diesel - other than at low speed (probably still the original 25 mph limit?) was required to be coupled between the diesel and the train. This wasa result of loco windows being broken by flying lumps of coal etc, especially on water troughs.

[Timara]

I was looking through some books at a Garden Centre last Sunday. You know the kind that are sold in these places, because I cannot recall which one it was now !!!! all I can remember is it was a book of monochrome photos of the final years of BR steam, a lot from the Northwest but also a lot from around Chester.

 

Two photos in particular, jumped out at me. One was of "clan" 72006 coupled to an unidentified "flat tendered" Hall at Chester. The photographer who I believe was the fireman, had worked a local from Manchester to Chester, the next leg being to run light to Mold Junction to work a freight back to Patricroft. The author described how the drivers were none to keen with the signalman's idea of coupling locos together to save paths between Chester and Mold and was apparently arguing against coupling to the Hall which stood in front of them. I was struck by how unusual a pairing a clan and a Hall might have been in steam days - albeit only light engines coupled to me.

 

 

Is that the shot in Footplate Cameraman by J R Carter by any chance? Highly useful book that!

 

As far as other light loco pairings, there's a documented account (in an old Steam World mag) of a Grange, a Black 5 and a rebuilt Scot as light engines all coupled together. Not uncommon in the Chester area, especially if they were all heading to/from Chester shed (6A). Put it this way, it'd be worth doing at a show and see who bites first!

[Marty Mc]

Hi Jamie 92208

 

 

There were also quite often steam/diesel pairings around at that time. In 66/67 the oil trains from Heysham to Leeds were initially hauled by 2 9f's then it became one 9F and a class 25. There didn't seem to be any rule as to which went at the front. As an aside this used to be one of the last steam hauled freights that went through Leeds City Station and the sight and sound of 2 9f's going through crowded platforms whilst pouring on the power to get up Marsh lane bank was a marvellous experience.

I bet it was would have sounded wonderful!

 

Could you tell me a little more about this please. I have the room to run 2 9f's pulling a rake of oil wagons. I actually like the idea of swapping in a class 25.

 

With the 9f's I have some single chimney's and double does it make a difference, as I can renumber to suit location.

 

What type of oil wagons would we be looking at here and how many would have being in a rake?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Martin

[stewartingram]

I stood on the ECML footbridge at Everton Crossing, north of Sandy one day with a tape recorder. Heard the sound of an approaching n/b Deltic, but all I could see was a Brush type 2 - which was piloting the Deltic. Wierd experience, great recording, I still have it on tape somewhere, must dig it out!

[Guest Phil]

Hi Jamie 92208

 

 

I bet it was would have sounded wonderful!

 

Could you tell me a little more about this please. I have the room to run 2 9f's pulling a rake of oil wagons. I actually like the idea of swapping in a class 25.

 

With the 9f's I have some single chimney's and double does it make a difference, as I can renumber to suit location.

 

What type of oil wagons would we be looking at here and how many would have being in a rake?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Martin

 

Hi Martin

I've seen photos published in books but I believe there are a few online too of oil trains out of Heysham. From memory the Sulzer type 2s were 25/0s. The tanks were the large-barrelled, vaccy-braked examples introduced in the early 1960s and used from Fawley, Stanlow and (obviously) Heysham.

 

I find any references I'll be back !!

 

EDIT

 

Heres a piccy of the train with a solo 9F on the front ;

 

[Guest Phil]

Tried a quick flickr moment and ended up with this ;

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24041160@N02/4888764788/

 

Not really what i was looking for but worthy of adding to this thread anyway !!

[roythebus]

Perhaps THE most unusual was reported by a pal who was a driver at Koeln Deutz. He was working an international train from Koeln to Hanover. just outside Hanover on the home signal the train engine failed, class 103 IIRC, and was dragged into the station by one of those tiny 4 wheeled KoF shunters!

 

He was also a test driver at Bw Opladen for a few years testing the first series ICE. They were usually dragged in by a variety of locos when they failed on test runs.

[melmerby]

Taking the latter point first - absolutely correct. But from October 1948 two 'King' class locomtives were permitted to run coupled together over any section of route where the class was normally permitted.

 

As far as the provision of an assisting engine (i.e. double-heading) with diesels was concerned the original Instructions permitted any GW design 4-6-0 to assist or be assisted by diesel hydraulic locos (n.b this original Instruction only covered the West Country except for assisting failed diesel hydraulics, which was permitted anywhere on the WR).

 

I don't have full details of later changes but from around 1965ish a steam loco assisting a diesel - other than at low speed (probably still the original 25 mph limit?) was required to be coupled between the diesel and the train. This wasa result of loco windows being broken by flying lumps of coal etc, especially on water troughs.

 

The period I can recall would have been around 1960-62 when the new diesels were sometimes piloted by a Hall or Grange for the journey in the far west "over the banks".

I never saw the reverse (diesel in front).

 

Keith

[Stormbringer]

In Peter Smiths book "Mendips Engineman" there is a pic of 34043 Combe Martin double heading a 9f on the 2.52 pm Bath Green Park to Bournemouth express in August 1962.

 

Pete

[bike2steam]

In Peter Smiths book "Mendips Engineman" there is a pic of 34043 Combe Martin double heading a 9f on the 2.52 pm Bath Green Park to Bournemouth express in August 1962.

 

Pete

 

The 9F was probably rescuing the 'dog' after it had failed - again (that was probably the, or one of it's last trips), as a 9F was more than capable to do it alone.

Talking of 9F's, once saw one passing Willesden hauling a failed Sulzer type 2 ( do they call 'em Class 24's ?) on a New Street to Euston (via Northampton)passenger working.

[45156]

Is that the shot in Footplate Cameraman by J R Carter by any chance? Highly useful book that!

 

That's the one - Footplate Cameraman by Jim Carter, originally Ian Allen and now doing the rounds on the cheapo market via Heathfield Railway Publications, and the pairing in question is on page 110.

Great book BTW, and the photographer used his position as a footplateman to good advange to get some first class photos. He was very skilled in night work using a multiple flash technique to get photos on shed which would not have been possible otherwise.

Hope this helps

Stewart

[Marty Mc]

Hi

 

Thank you for that great shot,love it. I think modelling 2 weathered 9fs would look great.

 

Hi Martin

I've seen photos published in books but I believe there are a few online too of oil trains out of Heysham. From memory the Sulzer type 2s were 25/0s. The tanks were the large-barrelled, vaccy-braked examples introduced in the early 1960s and used from Fawley, Stanlow and (obviously) Heysham.

 

I find any references I'll be back !!

 

EDIT

 

Heres a piccy of the train with a solo 9F on the front ;

 

http://www.flickr.co...ner/3974312851/

 

Im really looking for a good excuse to double head 9f's, now the tankers manufactured by Hornby or Bachmann and a rake of????. Whats the best or do I go for kits? I might also look at a coal train with 9fs.....more research.

 

Martin

[45156]

There were also quite often steam/diesel pairings around at that time.

 

Also happened in Scotland quite often, and not resulting from a rescue, but booked pairings of Sulzer Type 2 and Black 5 or its Standard equivalent. One such was the Stranraer to Glasgow morning parcels which was photographed by the late Derek Cross, and which was worked by two inbound locos from the night before, and if one of these was a diesel, then that is what worked back. There are photos of this working in "On Glasgow and South Western Lines" which is a compilation of colour work put together by David Cross.

 

BTW double headers of LNER and LMS types was quite common on the G&SWR lines in the late days of steam, as Leeds Holbeck used them over the S&C/GSW route to Glasgow, and sometimes they went back as a pilot due to unbalanced workings, and Polmadie or Corkerhill would have rostered an ex LMS type (Jub or Black 5) to the working already as a train engine.

[Stormbringer]

The 9F was probably rescuing the 'dog' after it had failed - again (that was probably the, or one of it's last trips), as a 9F was more than capable to do it alone

 

According to Peter Smith, he and Donald Beale were on Combe Martin and due to run back to Bournemouth light engine which mean't that they'd get put into most passing loops on the line. In order to avoid this it was suggested that they pilot the 9f.

 

Pete

[jamie92208]

Hi Jamie 92208

 

 

I bet it was would have sounded wonderful!

 

Could you tell me a little more about this please. I have the room to run 2 9f's pulling a rake of oil wagons. I actually like the idea of swapping in a class 25.

 

With the 9f's I have some single chimney's and double does it make a difference, as I can renumber to suit location.

 

What type of oil wagons would we be looking at here and how many would have being in a rake?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Martin

 

I don't know enough about the tankers to give an accurate reply but the suggestion of TTA's sounds right. They were certainly the big 50t 4 wheelers. The 9F's would almost certainly have been from Carnforth so finding out which ones were around should be quite easy to identify. The tanks were certainly dirty but I don't know whther they were black bitumen ones or lighter oil ones that had just got dirty.

 

I could just see this working from my brothers bedroom window but often saw the train whilst out on a cross country from school that took us roughly parallel to the current Settle bypass so we used to see the oil train which ran in the afternoon and the pick up freight that used to take coal to Giggleswick for the Gigglewick quarry limeworks and pick up wagons of lime from the sidings at the rear of Giggleswick station that were on the north side of where the bypass runs through. Watching the shunt, usually a small standard mogul from distant memory, was a good excuse for dawdling on the run.

 

Jamie

[Guest Phil]

That's the one - Footplate Cameraman by Jim Carter, originally Ian Allen and now doing the rounds on the cheapo market via Heathfield Railway Publications, and the pairing in question is on page 110.

Great book BTW, and the photographer used his position as a footplateman to good advange to get some first class photos. He was very skilled in night work using a multiple flash technique to get photos on shed which would not have been possible otherwise.

Hope this helps

Stewart

 

Thanks Stewart for answering Tim's question.

 

Yes, a very useful book, partly featuring a very interesting part of the world - that triangle between North Wales, Liverpool and Cheshire.

 

Recommended, particularly at the bargain basement price. It's on my list to pick up next.

 

 

Martin, depending on how accurate you want your tanks to be I suppose you could run the Hornby TTAs behind a 9F. To be correct though they were TTFs or TTVs. They were vacuum braked (V) but quite a number of tanks were fitted with the AFI vacuum system and were designated "F" rather than "V".

 

 

Not sure about a pair of 9Fs though - thats overkill !!!

[jamie92208]

Thanks Stewart for answering Tim's question.

 

Not sure about a pair of 9Fs though - thats overkill !!!

 

The Heysham Neville Hill train was heavily loaded and was usually double headed with 9F's then the 9F Class 25 combination then a pair of 25's as modernisation oved on.

 

Jamie