Steam locos where they shouldn't be.

[Ron Heggs]

A4  4498 Sir Nigel Gresley visited Manchester Central in March 1938 on a promotional trip for the 'Flying Scotsman' service which of course never ran from Manchester. Probably the first Pacific to gain access to the station

[MPR]

Britannia 70022 "Tornado" on the Brixham branch - and yes, there is a photograph of this! (in the new edition of CR Potts' book on the Newton Abbot to Kingswear line)

[pH]

Following on from pH's comments, there is a link to a Flickr site (fairburn 42244) and one of the pictures on there is a photo of A2 60535 Hornet's Beauty at Motherwell in Feb 1964. very definitely off its patch.

 

And scrolling further down Fairburn 42244's pictures, there is a shot of Polmadie in 1965 with 2 A2s and an A2/3 on shed! (60512 Steady Aim, 60527 Sun Chariot and 60535 Hornet's Beauty again).

 

Terry - I have sent you a Personal Message (PM) about this.

[Poor Old Bruce]

Another of track working. In July 1954 a Clan pacific (72008 Clan Macleod following some attention at Crewe works (a light intermediete repair) was sent of to Shrewsbury for a test run ( nothing unusual there) but Shrewsbury shed then borrowed the loco and set it off to Stafford with a Shrewsbury to Stafford train via Wellington (Salop). Probably the only time a Clan was seen at Wellington and Stafford.

 

In 1963 72008 was again seen at Wellington working an enthusiast special from Leeds(?), I got on at Derby, to Tyseley, Wolverhampton, Wellington, Market Drayton, Crewe and back to Derby over the North Staffs.

 

I remember seeing an L&Y Pug at Willesden 1A. I've been trying to find my spotting book with the number! I still have them somewhere.

 

According to The Express Locomotive Register LM Region 1950-60, 51202 was at Bath and Bristol, 51217 was at Burton, Derby and Bristol, 51218 was at Crewe, Bangor and Bristol, and 51235 at Derby.

[RJS1977]

A4  4498 Sir Nigel Gresley visited Manchester Central in March 1938 on a promotional trip for the 'Flying Scotsman' service which of course never ran from Manchester. Probably the first Pacific to gain access to the station

 

I've also seen a picture of 4472 in service at Manchester London Road. Although a partly LNER station (via the GCR), surely not a usual route for it!

[Ron Heggs]

I've also seen a picture of 4472 in service at Manchester London Road. Although a partly LNER station (via the GCR), surely not a usual route for it!

 

She was also there in February 1953, as 60103 in A3 guise, on a departure to Marylebone. Gresley Pacifics were regular performers into London Road (Piccadilly) from 1938 along the old GC line. They were also regulars due to the running in trips from Gorton Works and Sheds close by. She was a visitor to Manchester Central as 4472 (in preservation) on a trip to Marylebone in April 1964

[DerekEm8]

I've also seen a picture of 4472 in service at Manchester London Road. Although a partly LNER station (via the GCR), surely not a usual route for it!

60102 Sir Frederick Banbury, 60103 Flying Scotsman, 60104  Solario and 60107 Royal Lancer were all based at 38C Leicester (GC)

and appeared on the Marylebone trains on a daily basis prior to Woodhead electrification. (I know I was there)

An interesting book of unusual locos in the area is  'Wartime Woodhead, Steam Over The Woodhead Line in the Second World War'

by Kenneth Oldham (my copy is out on loan at the moment) which has among others a Photo of an A4 in Hyde along with other abnormal locos on freight on the line.

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Don't think this one has been up before. Fowler 2-6-2T heading for Snow Hill in early BR days.

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms2536.htm

 

And waiting to leave on an Up evening departure

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh2538.htm

[melmerby]

Don't think this one has been up before. Fowler 2-6-2T heading for Snow Hill in early BR days.

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms2536.htm

 

And waiting to leave on an Up evening departure

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh2538.htm

I bet the WR liked (not) that substitute for probably a 41xx/51xx as they were generally known to be pretty gutless!

 

Keith

[TheSignalEngineer]

I bet the WR liked (not) that substitute for probably a 41xx/51xx as they were generally known to be pretty gutless!

 

Keith

Reputedly not enough steam-raising capacity to make tea.

[melmerby]

Reputedly not enough steam-raising capacity to make tea.

I bet that upset the crew.

Just think, no char with their Bacon & Eggs.

(Assuming the fire was hot enough to fry Bacon & Eggs!)

 

Keith

[pH]

This came out of the "BR Locomotives in the Peak District" topic. A picture taken at High Peak Junction, the eastern end of the Cromford and High Peak Railway - http://www.aditnow.co.uk/supersize/Cromford-High-Peak-Railway-Railway-Archive-Album-Image-34036/. The front engine is Caley Pug 56020! (While the number isn't clear, there is another copy of the picture on this page - http://www.rcts.org.uk/branches/northampton/reports.htm (scroll down to Monday 3rd March 2014) with the engines identified. As 'Poor Old Bruce' posted in the "BR Locomotives in the Peak District" topic, 56020 was shedded at Burton at the time, but Cromford is even quite a distance from there for such a small engine.

[russ p]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the six ex GER He E4s that were sent to the north east to work on the stainmore line with over the pennines from Darlington to Penrith

[melmerby]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the six ex GER He E4s that were sent to the north east to work on the stainmore line with over the pennines from Darlington to Penrith

Not exactly "Steam Locos where they shouldn't be"

 

My original thread was intended for locos that wandered off course during day to day operations, rather than those transfrerred to a new shed! (albeit away from their normal patch)

 

Keith

[Titan]

Not exactly "Steam Locos where they shouldn't be"

 

My original thread was intended for locos that wandered off course during day to day operations, rather than those transfrerred to a new shed! (albeit away from their normal patch)

 

Keith

 

 

Oh. So Flying Scotsman in the NRM does not count? Pretty sure it should not have been there by now..

[bike2steam]

 As 'Poor Old Bruce' posted in the "BR Locomotives in the Peak District" topic, 56020 was shedded at Burton at the time, but Cromford is even quite a distance from there for such a small engine.

 

Similar to something that puzzled me for many years since the early 60's, I saw various J94's in Burton shed, over a period of a couple of years, when they were supposed to be based on the C&HP line ?????????????

[Quarryscapes]

Cambrian Blepaire Goods locos ended up doing work for the LNWR during 1918. In The 40s some MR 2fs were in use on Cambrian territory and ex S&M based WD J50s used to occasionally run down the coast to a WD facility down there, Colonel Stephens would have turned in his grave! (He'd been trying to get rights to run over the Cambrian ever since he got the S&M! ). 

[pH]

56020 was shedded at Burton at the time, but Cromford is even quite a distance from there for such a small engine.

Similar to something that puzzled me for many years since the early 60's, I saw various J94's in Burton shed, over a period of a couple of years, when they were supposed to be based on the C&HP line ?????????????

Having thought a bit about this, maybe these happenings aren't too surprising after all. Where were engines for the C&HP maintained? The sheds on the line (Cromford, Sheep Pasture and Middleton Top) weren't much more than that - sheds. Any significant work on their engines, I think, would have had to be done somewhere else.

 

These sheds were in 17 district, subs of 17C Rowsley in 1962. Engines from Cromford and Sheep Pasture at the eastern end of the line could have gone to Rowsley (or even 17A Derby) for attention.

 

The nearest shed to the western portion of the line was Buxton, but that was in 9 district. The easiest 17 district shed to get to would probably have been 17B Burton, via the Ashbourne line. That could explain C&HP J94s there.

 

The Caley Pug could have got onto the C&HP through Ashbourne, and worked down to Cromford from there. (I was originally thinking of it having to work round through Derby to Cromford.)

[peach james]

IMHO I think the coal is more relevant on powerful locos on longer trips.

I.e. A King and a Princess are nominally the same power, however the Princess needed a much larger grate area to cope with the conditions on the longer journeys on the LMS with coal which was more likely to clog the grate.

If the LMS only went 200 miles instead of 400 no doubt Stanier could possibly have replicated the King on the LMS with satisfactory results.

The Princess also needed a larger boiler as it was probably required to produce maximum power for longer periods.

 

Keith

 

Keefer: looks like the Clan has a 12A (Carlisle) plate, it's also reasonably clean.

 

"The Red Dragon (& other tales of steam)" goes into this fairly far.  The end result is that in order to get the last 10% of the power out of an engine, yes, the coal does matter.  In order to get at the middle 75%, then basically, any loco coal will do.  To make an engine "go", basically, black rocks will work.

 

That's also my experience.  I don't claim to be an expert on firing railway engines.  (or marine either...I've only got about a year of actual steaming on my 2A).  But, having fired a fair # of models (mostly 3/4" scale, and mostly close to the engine limits), I do have some appreciation of the problems associated with coal fired engines.  The much vaunted steam coal matters when you are trying to get that last little bit out of the boilers.  MORE importantly though, the coal needs to be constant.  If you get coal from one seam, one mine, then it will be of a more consistent quality than if you are shopping around for the lowest bidder always...

 

My experience burning FERN fuels Welsh was that I needed more experience before doing what I did, as I overfired by quite a bit, and could have scored much higher had I been used to burning that welsh coal, rather than the mixture of Drumheller coals which I normally fired 70038 with.  It all comes down to experience, and I had to go with what I knew, which was a bit heavier than I otherwise would have done.  (this is 2000, with "my" Britannia at Hamilton (Ontario))

 

Working an engine to the grate limit is to be avoided.  If you are working at the grate limit on a full sized engine, then the carry over of unburned fuel can be as high as 50%.  Great for lineside fires, not so great to be the fireman...

 

James Powell

[Poor Old Bruce]

Having thought a bit about this, maybe these happenings aren't too surprising after all. Where were engines for the C&HP maintained? The sheds on the line (Cromford, Sheep Pasture and Middleton Top) weren't much more than that - sheds. Any significant work on their engines, I think, would have had to be done somewhere else.

 

These sheds were in 17 district, subs of 17C Rowsley in 1962. Engines from Cromford and Sheep Pasture at the eastern end of the line could have gone to Rowsley (or even 17A Derby) for attention.

 

The nearest shed to the western portion of the line was Buxton, but that was in 9 district. The easiest 17 district shed to get to would probably have been 17B Burton, via the Ashbourne line. That could explain C&HP J94s there.

 

The Caley Pug could have got onto the C&HP through Ashbourne, and worked down to Cromford from there. (I was originally thinking of it having to work round through Derby to Cromford.)

 

The locos for the C&HPR were allocated to Rowsley in the 1950s and 60s. Although that shed was geographically neared to the C&HP, it must have been abit of a trek to get from Middleton to Rowsley by rail. When Rowsley shed closed in 1965, the allocation was transferred to Buxton which was much easier to get to by rail. The locos were the North London 0-6-0Ts and the J94 0-6-0STs. For working the section between the top of Sheep Pasture incline and the bottom of Middleton incline, a smaller loco was required which was hauled up and down Sheep Pasture incline when required. In BR days that was often a 47000 series but there were occasions when substitutes were required. I suggest that 56020 was one such substitute as Burton could probably loan it out and borrow another loco from Derby to cover. The route from Burton to Sheep Pasture via Uttoxeter, Ashbourne and Parsley Hay would be picturesque but not very practical so, to me, the logical route would be via Derby and Ambergate which is many miles shorter.

[Norton961]

To return to the basics of the topic " locomotives where they should not have been I have a few examples:

1. One of Saltley sheds re built Scots 46162 appeared at Burton shed in early 1962 and was then used on the local colliery shunts at Didisthorpe and Cadeley Hill on the Swadlincote loop line before returning to Burton.

2. One of Shrewsbury,s Stanier B 5 45430 was seen on the Cambrian main line at Trewern east of Welshpool on the 6th August 1966 which was a total one of as normally the biggest engines were Manors and BR Standard class 4 4-6-0,s and I suspect was overweight!

3. On visiting Crewe South shed in 1966 I found a B1 parked inside the shed,

4. Another of Saltley,s re built Scots 46157 was seen on Worcester GW shed circa late 1961.

5. In the severe winter of 1962/3 re built Scots worked into Newcastle with Liverpool services and would have normally come of the train at Leeds, 46114 and 46168 on 10/11 December 1962.

6. 24-8-1963 one of Upperby,s rebuilt Scots 46166 was seen at Wolverhampton Low Level (the GW) station with the northbound relief to the Pines Express which would normally be one of Oxley,s Castles.

7. B1 61289 seen between Bangor and Llandudno on a freight in 9-1966. B1, we're seen at Llandudno with holiday trains from the Eastern region but the Llandudno shed master must have borrowed one to send further west.

8. Football specials are pretty good at seeing strange "foreign" engines, Southern Pacifics Bering seen on a number of occasions being serviced at Wolverhampton Oxley shed.

 

David

[melmerby]

8. Football specials are pretty good at seeing strange "foreign" engines, Southern Pacifics Bering seen on a number of occasions being serviced at Wolverhampton Oxley shed.

 

David

Including the famous day 27 April 1963 12 Bulleid Pacifics in Snow Hill!

http://www.confessionsofatrainspotter.org.uk/1963bulleidinvasion.htm

 

Keith

[TheSignalEngineer]

Saltley Royal Scots had a regular turn to Worcester around 1962. More unusual was seeing a Holbeck one, 46109, passing northbound through Snow Hill with a long ECS one Sunday night around 1961

[Titan]

Including the famous day 27 April 1963 12 Bulleid Pacifics in Snow Hill!

http://www.confessionsofatrainspotter.org.uk/1963bulleidinvasion.htm

 

Keith

 

That makes for some pretty amazing reading. I can't imagine 13 footex specials being arranged today, and that was just for Southampton! Presumably there were a similar number of trains organised for the Manchester supporters. It is also notable that almost all of the regular traffic was diesel hauled at that time, but the footex specials seemed to be exclusively steam!

[The Stationmaster]

That makes for some pretty amazing reading. I can't imagine 13 footex specials being arranged today, and that was just for Southampton! Presumably there were a similar number of trains organised for the Manchester supporters. It is also notable that almost all of the regular traffic was diesel hauled at that time, but the footex specials seemed to be exclusively steam!

Don't forget that at that time most of the longer distance (Bournemouth etc) traffic on the SWD was still steam hauled and the end of steam working was still 4 years off so it was not at all unlikely that specials from the Southampton area would be steam hauled.  also with that many trains nobody would be able to readily conjure up enough engines to re-engine the trains let lone find enough diesels for the job.  And above all don't forget that there were enthusiasts working in diagramming offices who might well do their best to roll the pitch for something 'interesting' to happen.