Prototype location or not?

[roger440]

Hmmm, where do i start?

 

I will soon(ish) be in a position to have a dedicated railway room, which is currently part of my garage.

 

On completion, it will be 29" long by 8" wide with the last 12" being 11" wide.

 

However, big as it is, its what to build.

 

I have never built a model of a real location before, all the others having been entirely fictional.

 

To go backwards slightly, i spent much of my youth around the western mainline from paddington to oxford during the late 80's. This is the era and area i want to model, but i am drawn to building a real location this time.

 

Sadly, or foolishly, i am drawn to Reading station, mainly as that was where most of the action was. There was a huge amount of activity here, lots of different stock and a good level of operational interest.

 

Having done some googling, it is clear that 29" is not enough for a scale model 45" plus would be required. This would include the junction to the west of the station but no more.

 

My real questions are these:

 

Just how much compression can you get away with whilst retaining the character of the location? This is not something i have a clear idea of.

 

And potentially more of an issue with this location is that the railway is raised above the surrounding countryside. There are no over bridges at either end to provide a scenic break. Its this that bothers me most about the idea.

 

So, am i completely off my trolley or is this doable? All suggestions gratefully received!

[The Stationmaster]

How about Oxford? Probably a bit more readily 'compressable' than Reading and with a more readily achievable and simpler track layout.

[Kenton]

On completion, it will be 29" long by 8" wide with the last 12" being 11" wide.

Room for a decent micro layout in there

 

Seriously, given all the space I would fill it with micro layouts to spread the interest and perhaps a single end-2-end of a prototype.

 

Living near Reading, I find it difficult to think of as an interesting place except perhaps if you were doing a 19th century period piece.

 

As far as width is concerned, Reading lends itself well to compression - just don't model all the platforms.

But I can think of a few more stations that could be more inspirational, I guess it depends on what period you wish to model, how much research material you can get your hands on and ultimately your modeling skills.

 

Whatever you choose, that sort of space will take a lifetime to fill so good luck with it.

[Welly]

I agree about Reading - I remember that time, Class 50s and 47s with NSE Mk1s, HSTs with screaming Valentas, 56s and FY 59s with stone trains, 47s with raspberry ripple Mk2s on Cross Country workings and DMUs rasping out - Ahhh, wonderful! B)

 

If you want to model a real location, I suggest asking yourself, "What defines that location and makes it recognisable?" It could be the station building, it could be the surroundings ( which is VERY difficult to model - think Kyle of Lochalse ), it could be the trackwork/layout or even the signalling apparatus and work out if that particular element can be modelled without overwhelming the whole layout.

 

I don't see why Reading cannot be compressed to take shorter trains eg HSTs with 4 Mk3s and some of the buildings moved to hide the fiddle yard entrances ( eg that multi-storey car park ) You can always leave out the Southern platforms and I think you need to leave out the depot as well.

[Flying Pig]

Sadly, or foolishly, i am drawn to Reading station, mainly as that was where most of the action was. There was a huge amount of activity here, lots of different stock and a good level of operational interest.

Remember that this is going to be your layout, not something you watch at an exhibition, so you'll have to make sure all those trains run. Do you have a large team of operators on hand or are you going to go for automation? I very much doubt you'll be able to run enough trains manually to both keep up the activity and immerse yourself in the scene.

 

Just how much compression can you get away with whilst retaining the character of the location? This is not something i have a clear idea of.

Neither have I but my guess is it's a lot more than you think as we never see the entirety of a large site in real life. In my experience, I remember places as a series of cameos and I'm always surprised by how much plain stuff there is between them when I look at aerial photos and the like. I believe even Jim S-W is compressing a wee bit and his layout is about the most hardcore prototypical one I've seen on RMweb (it's also a huge project which he is happy to dedicate many years to).

[hmrspaul]

Roger

 

Why model all of the length of the station? IIRC there is a footbridge across it which would make a suitable scenic break, and saves having the problem of how to arrange the access to a fiddle yard at one end.

 

Indeed why model the station at all? The western end with access to the various yards etc would be a nice arrangement, as they narrow for the road under bridge and then open up again for the west end marshalling yard. You can still have all of the passenger and parcels trains - and mostly going slowly as they slow to stop at the station off-stage, or accelerate from a stop.

 

Paul Bartlett

[roger440]

How about Oxford? Probably a bit more readily 'compressable' than Reading and with a more readily achievable and simpler track layout.

 

Certainly possible! A bit less interesting both operationally and stock wise, but as you observe rather more manageable.

 

 

I agree about Reading - I remember that time, Class 50s and 47s with NSE Mk1s, HSTs with screaming Valentas, 56s and FY 59s with stone trains, 47s with raspberry ripple Mk2s on Cross Country workings and DMUs rasping out - Ahhh, wonderful! B)

 

This is EXACTLY what i want to create

 

Remember that this is going to be your layout, not something you watch at an exhibition, so you'll have to make sure all those trains run. Do you have a large team of operators on hand or are you going to go for automation? I very much doubt you'll be able to run enough trains manually to both keep up the activity and immerse yourself in the scene.

 

 

Neither have I but my guess is it's a lot more than you think as we never see the entirety of a large site in real life. In my experience, I remember places as a series of cameos and I'm always surprised by how much plain stuff there is between them when I look at aerial photos and the like. I believe even Jim S-W is compressing a wee bit and his layout is about the most hardcore prototypical one I've seen on RMweb (it's also a huge project which he is happy to dedicate many years to).

 

I anticipate a level of automation, certainly for the bay platforms. It would mostly be my self and sometimes a couple of mates for operation. Though being at home, i dont have to worry about keeping up the pace as such. Hadn't really thought to much about this aspect though.

 

Jims layout has a compromise????????

 

 

Roger

 

Why model all of the length of the station? IIRC there is a footbridge across it which would make a suitable scenic break, and saves having the problem of how to arrange the access to a fiddle yard at one end.

 

Indeed why model the station at all? The western end with access to the various yards etc would be a nice arrangement, as they narrow for the road under bridge and then open up again for the west end marshalling yard. You can still have all of the passenger and parcels trains - and mostly going slowly as they slow to stop at the station off-stage, or accelerate from a stop.

 

Paul Bartlett

 

Ahh genius!!!!! Not sure why i didn't think of that!!! A bit like Waverly West i guess? Means i dont have to bother with the southern electric platforms either. I sensed these would be a problem as they are 8 car length and only just. I suppose i could have only run 4 cars.

 

I need to think more about that. Around the time im modelling they had installed the new over bridge with the old one still there whicj would help "deepen" it. That solves the problem one end. The curve to the south of the main junction is surrounded by trees as i recall (or was) leaving only the problem of a scenic break for the main line heading west past the depot and the yard on the other side. This is the bit im really struggling with.

 

As you can probaly tell, im a bit bit attached to the idea of Reading!! Its just finding a way of making it convincing. If someone who has been there can look at it minus trains and know instantly its reading, then i would be delighted.

 

I want it to be as relistic as possible, but im not getting hung up about total scale accuracy. Ive already identified that the area to the west of the platforms over the road is clearly much longer in real life than it apears at ground level from the station.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Something I've found useful in the past is to sketch out a plan of the station from memory. That way you will focus on the elements which are important to you and your own perception of Reading.

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

I need to think more about that. Around the time im modelling they had installed the new over bridge with the old one still there whicj would help "deepen" it. That solves the problem one end. The curve to the south of the main junction is surrounded by trees as i recall (or was) leaving only the problem of a scenic break for the main line heading west past the depot and the yard on the other side. This is the bit im really struggling with.

 

er there wasn't an 'old' overbridge - the station had a subway (and still does of course).

 

 

 

I want it to be as relistic as possible, but im not getting hung up about total scale accuracy. Ive already identified that the area to the west of the platforms over the road is clearly much longer in real life than it apears at ground level from the station.

 

The centre of the Main Lines side through platforms is 19 chains from the junction points for the Westbury Line but alas I don't have a distance from the platform ends to those points to hand. 19 chains is just short of a quarter of a mile. If you set the scene with the viewing side from the south side of the railway you would have the front on top of a retaining wall for the entire length between the station and the junction and with buildings along part of the backscene plus the cattle pens and then rooftops and the fire station beyond - perhaps as part of a painted or low relief backscene?

 

 

 

 

[Kris]

Finding the amount of compression acceptable is a personal thing. This might dictate the scale that you end up working in. Looking at N your 29' gives you a distance of 1.3km, in 00 you get 0.64km and in 0 you get about 0.3km. Obviously at each end you will loose a little length to curves so that is something to take into account.

[roger440]

er there wasn't an 'old' overbridge - the station had a subway (and still does of course).

 

 

The centre of the Main Lines side through platforms is 19 chains from the junction points for the Westbury Line but alas I don't have a distance from the platform ends to those points to hand. 19 chains is just short of a quarter of a mile. If you set the scene with the viewing side from the south side of the railway you would have the front on top of a retaining wall for the entire length between the station and the junction and with buildings along part of the backscene plus the cattle pens and then rooftops and the fire station beyond - perhaps as part of a painted or low relief backscene?

 

 

 

I was convinced there was an overbridge. So i went and checked some photos. Your right! There wasn't. In fact my photos show no bridge in some right through to the completed overbridge Sadly, not being an organised type of chap, i havn't dated any of them!

 

Ref the retaining wall, you are absolutely right. I remember it well as the walking to the depot was next to this wall complete with refuges to duck into to dodge the oncoming thumpers!

 

However i dont follow your theory ref the viewing side. The retaining wall would be nearest the operator, rather dictated by the westbury curve having to stay inside the building! Or is that what you mean?

[roger440]

Finding the amount of compression acceptable is a personal thing. This might dictate the scale that you end up working in. Looking at N your 29' gives you a distance of 1.3km, in 00 you get 0.64km and in 0 you get about 0.3km. Obviously at each end you will loose a little length to curves so that is something to take into account.

 

It will be OO. Got all the stock i could ever need for this

[The Stationmaster]

I was convinced there was an overbridge. So i went and checked some photos. Your right! There wasn't. In fact my photos show no bridge in some right through to the completed overbridge Sadly, not being an organised type of chap, i havn't dated any of them!

 

Ref the retaining wall, you are absolutely right. I remember it well as the walking to the depot was next to this wall complete with refuges to duck into to dodge the oncoming thumpers!

 

However i dont follow your theory ref the viewing side. The retaining wall would be nearest the operator, rather dictated by the westbury curve having to stay inside the building! Or is that what you mean?

 

My main thought was that the retaining wall could in effect be a sort of scenicked baseboard edge - useful way of fixing the position of the front edge of the layout (+plus it stops the Westbury Line curving away into the wall and it makes sure that the stone trains, which are longer than the layout, are in the forefront of viewing.

 

 

 

[beast66606]

On completion, it will be 29" long by 8" wide with the last 12" being 11" wide.

 

Unless you are building in T scale then 29 inches by 8 inches will not give you much scope - " being the abbreviation for inches, did you mean to use ' for feet ?

[roger440]

Unless you are building in T scale then 29 inches by 8 inches will not give you much scope - " being the abbreviation for inches, did you mean to use ' for feet ?

 

Yes i know

 

No advice on my scenic break thou?

[kiwinewt]

I would be tempted to do a series of built-up areas with scenic areas in between - gives you scope for multiple types of scenery to ease boredom!

Nate

[beast66606]

Yes i know

 

No advice on my scenic break thou?

 

You seem to be favouring the Western Region so you're on your own

 

All I will say is the space you have is not massive, in 4mm, by the time you lose say 5' at each end for curves (assuming you want reasonable ones), or even down to 4' then you only have 20' to play with, and whilst it's not tiny, when you start adding points and crossings it will soon go, so advice would be to keep it simple but effective.

[The Stationmaster]

You seem to be favouring the Western Region so you're on your own

 

This is of course a matter of personal good taste, some of us have it - while others don't

 

 

All I will say is the space you have is not massive, in 4mm, by the time you lose say 5' at each end for curves (assuming you want reasonable ones), or even down to 4' then you only have 20' to play with, and whilst it's not tiny, when you start adding points and crossings it will soon go, so advice would be to keep it simple but effective.

 

That's one reason why I suggested Oxford - relatively simple to compress the platform length and a footbridge (if you model the right period) to make something of a scenic break and then just concentrate on one end of the layout and a much simpler layout beyond the platform ends compared with Reading. Oxford also offers considerable traffic and traction variety with the presence of mgrs, car trains, and Freightliners although it is a bit more restrictive when it comes to stone trains compared with Reading and the Cross Country trains only call instead of running round or turning over locos. But all of that also would make it much easier to operate as well (although that might not be what is wanted of course).

 

 

 

[roger440]

I would be tempted to do a series of built-up areas with scenic areas in between - gives you scope for multiple types of scenery to ease boredom!

Nate

 

To be honest, ive no great interest in extensive scenery. Lots of track with associated stuff is good for me. Lots of trains, lots movement is what im after. Dont get me wrong, i want a good level of realisim, but im not rivet counting either.

 

You seem to be favouring the Western Region so you're on your own

 

All I will say is the space you have is not massive, in 4mm, by the time you lose say 5' at each end for curves (assuming you want reasonable ones), or even down to 4' then you only have 20' to play with, and whilst it's not tiny, when you start adding points and crossings it will soon go, so advice would be to keep it simple but effective.

 

Agreed. The suggestion of doing half the station has meant i havn't dismissed the idea yet, as it looks possibly achievable.

 

This is of course a matter of personal good taste, some of us have it - while others don't

 

 

 

 

That's one reason why I suggested Oxford - relatively simple to compress the platform length and a footbridge (if you model the right period) to make something of a scenic break and then just concentrate on one end of the layout and a much simpler layout beyond the platform ends compared with Reading. Oxford also offers considerable traffic and traction variety with the presence of mgrs, car trains, and Freightliners although it is a bit more restrictive when it comes to stone trains compared with Reading and the Cross Country trains only call instead of running round or turning over locos. But all of that also would make it much easier to operate as well (although that might not be what is wanted of course).

 

 

 

I like complex

 

But i hear what you say. Just doesn't quite "do it" for me. Guess thats because all i ever did at Oxford was get the next train back to Reading for some more 50 thrash!

 

I guess i should be doing a scaled trackplan to see if i actually have any hope of getting it in the space available???? Though i must confess to having measured the garden for more space. I could move it to an alternative site in the garden which would give me 40' plus with 6' at one end opening out to 12' or so at the other. Would be a challenging shaped building though.

 

The scenic break thing is still bugging me though for either location at the end of what is a quite open site. Im concerned it will lose its atmosphere. Maybe i need to get a grip?

[AberdeenBill]

I think Reading is just too ambitious... How about a nice scenic section of the four-track mainline between Reading and Didcot, maybe including one of the intermediate stations. You could put in some fast-to-slow ladder crossovers to add some operational interest. While you're about it, you could move Didcot Power Station and have the entry tracks included, or imagine Moreton Cutting reborn as a PW depot (rather than Hinksey Yard)...

 

Oh yes, you should also go back in time 35-40 years to have hydraulics dominating the scene

 

Keep us posed with photos...

Bill

[roger440]

I think Reading is just too ambitious... How about a nice scenic section of the four-track mainline between Reading and Didcot, maybe including one of the intermediate stations. You could put in some fast-to-slow ladder crossovers to add some operational interest. While you're about it, you could move Didcot Power Station and have the entry tracks included, or imagine Moreton Cutting reborn as a PW depot (rather than Hinksey Yard)...

 

Oh yes, you should also go back in time 35-40 years to have hydraulics dominating the scene

 

Keep us posed with photos...

Bill

 

Hmmm, had that thought too. Ended up thinking west ealing, before they moved the platform. But nothing stops at these places, DMU's aside. I think thats what id miss with a scenic section of the western mainline. Cant have sound fitted 50's restarting 10 MK1's that way. Would probably make for a great exhibition layout though.

 

And west ealing has the same problem heading west, no obvious scenic break.

 

Hydraulics, i dont think so. Only good for towing to the scrap line

[50033]

Evening

 

With compression don't forget unless your going P4 or building your own track, your turnouts are going to be much smaller than the prototype. I would suggest that with compressing and finding out how much room you need for a full train, you may well be able to fit most of your desires in. As for scenic break could you use the sheds at Reading west to provide some sort of visual break, allowing track to just dissapear into holes in back board. At the other end bring the bridge at Woodley/Sonning forward and use modellers licence.

Also I'm sure you could fit a roundy roundy layout into 8', worth considering to gain operational space.

 

Looking Forward to any progress as I work in Reading and ofter spend time watching trains at Tilehurst or Woodley.

 

Mark

[Taigatrommel]

Massively simpler, and with a convenient road bridge, is Twyford. I'm none too hot on the Thames Valley, might it still have had some sidings in your period? At the very least there's the Henley branch train terminating. By my reckoning you could model to the western end of the car park from the road bridge in 20 feet.

[The Stationmaster]

Hmmm, had that thought too. Ended up thinking west ealing, before they moved the platform. But nothing stops at these places, DMU's aside. I think thats what id miss with a scenic section of the western mainline. Cant have sound fitted 50's restarting 10 MK1's that way. Would probably make for a great exhibition layout though.

 

 

Of course you can have 50s restarting 10 coach trains - they did that every weekday morning and evening on the Thames Valley commuter trains (or am i dreaming about travelling to work in the cab of one on more days than i can remember?).

Mind you post steam/diesel hydraulic era the Thames valley stations west of Reading were all much of non muchness as far as track layouts went - 4 running lines and no connections except at Cholsey although the ground frame operated running junction at Goring was amusing (for all its very short life after resignalling).

 

 

[roger440]

Evening

 

With compression don't forget unless your going P4 or building your own track, your turnouts are going to be much smaller than the prototype. I would suggest that with compressing and finding out how much room you need for a full train, you may well be able to fit most of your desires in. As for scenic break could you use the sheds at Reading west to provide some sort of visual break, allowing track to just dissapear into holes in back board. At the other end bring the bridge at Woodley/Sonning forward and use modellers licence.

Also I'm sure you could fit a roundy roundy layout into 8', worth considering to gain operational space.

 

Looking Forward to any progress as I work in Reading and ofter spend time watching trains at Tilehurst or Woodley.

 

Mark

 

Ive got 29ft (well will have) to work with so im sure i can get something interesting in. Given some of the suggestions im warming to the idea of only doing the western half of the station which will save a huge amount of space. I want to try and keep a realistic looking "openness" about the place, so no good cramming it in too tightly. I suspect i will be using some proper track rather than PECO, though it will still be OO.

 

It is my intention to do a roundy roundy. Fiddle yard width may be challenging!

 

Massively simpler, and with a convenient road bridge, is Twyford. I'm none too hot on the Thames Valley, might it still have had some sidings in your period? At the very least there's the Henley branch train terminating. By my reckoning you could model to the western end of the car park from the road bridge in 20 feet.

 

Simpler yes, but a little lacking in any operational potential. And i never ever went there. Just through it at high speed! Modelling somwhere with memories is important, hence the alternative of west ealing.

 

Of course you can have 50s restarting 10 coach trains - they did that every weekday morning and evening on the Thames Valley commuter trains (or am i dreaming about travelling to work in the cab of one on more days than i can remember?).

Mind you post steam/diesel hydraulic era the Thames valley stations west of Reading were all much of non muchness as far as track layouts went - 4 running lines and no connections except at Cholsey although the ground frame operated running junction at Goring was amusing (for all its very short life after resignalling).

 

 

 

The 50's/commuter sets only stopped at all stations west of slough and/or from reading depending which service it was. These were much more thrash for your money Sadly not at west ealing though. Mind you, the morning oxford train used to stop at Ealing broadway at platform 1 for no apparant reason as there were no such other workings in either direction. As im sure you know that was the Old Oak test train, so frequent double heading:) But then you knew that.

 

Thought about ealing broadway, but id need a baseboard about 5ft wide and rather a lot of tube stock!

 

Decision, decisions. Maybe i need to learn how to use templot