Baling Out The Irish

[Guest Max Stafford]

You'd think so, but I doubt it.

 

Dave.

[asmay2002]

(barely enough to support 50,000 civil servants for a year)

 

The median UK Civil service salary is £22850. Either your maths is way off or Ireland has some very well paid civil servants. The only highly paid ones in the UK are clueless "blow ins" from industry or Doctors.

 

ASM

[Georgeconna]

There are certainly a few fascinating facts about banking history between the UK and Ireland.

 

The introduction of the Punt (fore-runner of the Euro) was largely ignored by the population for the first few years of it's life; indeed it was possible for some years after to initiate a Bank Giro Credit from Ireland to the UK , despite the exchange rate and the two different currencies. It may still be possible, for all I know - I retired from the Black Donkey many years ago. Many of the Irish simply didn't believe that they had a separate currency ....and some thought I was joking about the name.

 

The year-long strike of Irish Banks, back in 19?? was a real humdinger where thousands lost thousands more when the system returned to 'normal'.

 

The retail monetary activities are better known - the cross-border purchasing of vehicle fuel and other commodities, dependant upon tax rates and prices.

 

Yes, our only land barrier with another sovereign state produces much amusement. And a Mr G. Adams wants to move down there

 

Bob

 

Laughing here, when on holidays on the UK some people think were still using sterling and that were part of the UK. Believe me I get questioned.

 

Embarrassing enough as this is all you need to do is take a look about and see the amount of UK shops ranging from Tescos to the smaller outlets. The Irish Banks have their interests all over the UK as a well. You'd be surprised in what turns up these days on the news programs.

 

Apparently trade between Ireland and the UK is greater than between the UK and China. Mostly due to the location of the UK high streets shops here.

 

Agriculture whilst still important is not the force it once was, Even were surrounded by sea the trawlers cant make use of that with low quotas.

 

The public were fed crap for a few years by the politicians telling us were richer than Switzerland, Unfortunately not many of them probably visited Switzerland to undermine that fact.

 

Anyway it Looks like the clowns here are going be taking the German Money instead so you guys can rest easy, so can my wife who was told last week in her semi state job that they only have wages funds until the mid spring next year.

 

 

Oh, Your Guinness is probably brewed in the UK as well and not in the ol sod. Sorry. If your stuck try Beamish instread, Fraction of the cost and just as tasty

 

Cheers

 

George

[oggy1953]

OK another analogy. You live in a semi-detached house. Your neighbour's is on fire.

Is it in your interests to help him fight the fire...?

 

Dave.

 

 

Or looking at it another way. Your skint, a neighbour is skint too. Do you give him what small amount of money you have left ?

 

This nation has always been keen to send money to foreign countries, in fact i believe the overseas aid package escaped the cuts. But surely charity begins at home, and if we have any spare money it should be spent here to relieve our debt

[Revolution Mike]

Or looking at it another way. Your skint, a neighbour is skint too. Do you give him what small amount of money you have left ?

 

Yes, if by giving him that money you are:

* protecting your 80% share in RBS (which has large interests in the Irish economy)

* or preventing a ripple effect into Northern Ireland

 

Etc etc

 

Ultimately our £7bn may prove to be an incredibly wise if it prevents much worse happening to the UK. Don't forget this is a loan that we will get back (presumably with interest), not a gift.

 

Mike

[Revolution Mike]

The median UK Civil service salary is £22850. Either your maths is way off or Ireland has some very well paid civil servants. The only highly paid ones in the UK are clueless "blow ins" from industry or Doctors.

 

As soon as a anyone (particularly the head of the Civil Service!) starts quoting medians then I can't help thinking - there are lies, damned lies and statistics!

 

A median salary of X does not mean there aren't lots of very well paid civil servants - in fact by definition at least 50% earn more than the median

[grahame]

Oh, Your Guinness is probably brewed in the UK as well and not in the ol sod.

 

'fraid not. The Guinness Park Royal (London) brewery was closed a few years back and production switched to Dublin. I remember going on one of the last trips around it.

 

http://www.brandrepublic.com/news/208018/Diageo-shifts-Guinness-production-historic-Dublin-site/

 

G.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The median UK Civil service salary is £22850. Either your maths is way off or Ireland has some very well paid civil servants. The only highly paid ones in the UK are clueless "blow ins" from industry or Doctors.

As a clueless industrial type, I have the sad duty to inform you that the salary received by an employee is a much smaller sum than the total cost of their employment.

[beeman]

Max Stafford, on 23 November 2010 - 00:24 , said:

OK another analogy. You live in a semi-detached house. Your neighbour's is on fire.

Is it in your interests to help him fight the fire...?

 

This suggestion deserves merit as long as you inform him that after the fire has been put out he fits fire alarms etc, otherwise no help.

[asmay2002]

As a clueless industrial type, I have the sad duty to inform you that the salary received by an employee is a much smaller sum than the total cost of their employment.

 

Yes, I can do cost breakdowns too. To get to full cost recovery the civil servant in question would have to be earning £50K plus (on your numbers) and that is double the average CS salary. Your original statement was still wrong and the second was patronising.

 

ASM

[Mod6]

As a clueless industrial type, I have the sad duty to inform you that the salary received by an employee is a much smaller sum than the total cost of their employment.

 

 

Yes, I can do cost breakdowns too. To get to full cost recovery the civil servant in question would have to be earning £50K plus (on your numbers) and that is double the average CS salary. Your original statement was still wrong and the second was patronising.ASM

 

OK you two knock it off please. If this topic starts to get personal or more political (it's been mostly sensible so far) it'll get canned.

[beeman]

Or looking at it another way. Your skint, a neighbour is skint too. Do you give him what small amount of money you have left ?

 

This nation has always been keen to send money to foreign countries, in fact i believe the overseas aid package escaped the cuts. But surely charity begins at home, and if we have any spare money it should be spent here to relieve our debt

 

Is is not amazing how it went quiet after the announcement that 'much of our Foreign aid was being used for purchasing arms' wonder why ,and who blocked it ,?????, Some 15 years ago, on holiday in Egypt, I was asked by the Waiter serving breakfast 'Are you from England', 'yes' was my reply. 'The land of my dreams' he said, 'if I could get to England through Italy, They would give me a house, and then I could send for my family.' Nothing s changed.

[DJH584]

Our base interest rate is 0.5% - despite what credit card companies, building societies etc charge us for loans. How does this compare with other EU zone countries?

Are their rates higher than ours? If so then £7 billion at 0.5% will no doubt be far more attractive to Ireland than the larger amount they are going to get from the EU.

Then of course there will be the exchange rate. The GBP has recently been fluctuating between 1.12 and 1.18 euro - sorry don't have the euro sign on my keyboard - so will the loan be for £7billion or the euro equivalent?

 

Just a couple of thoughts.

 

Regards

 

David

 

 

[Foulounoux]

Well, that's quite obvious yes. Because if you were, you'd have known that it's not the Euro at fault, it's the politicians who are to blame that the currency is now so weak. If the politicians back in 2000 (or even earlier) hadn't deliberately wanted to include, at not matter what cost, several southern European countries who's finances back then, and for a long time before and after that, were known to be 'dodgy' at best, the Euro would be strong and a refuge for all those seeking relief from the USD, GBP and some Asian currencies. Incidentally, most Euro-zone countries who are jeopardising the currency are also net-receivers of EU subsidies... I have great difficulty believing the two are not related, by any stretch of imagination...

 

The currency is weak because the structure of the euro zone means that countries within it have no room for manoeuvre- unlike those not tied to a central rate.

I was one of those warning that when everything was going well Ireland Spain Greece etc were booming that what they really needed were high interest rates to dampen down the boom but they couldn't because Germany and France needed low interest rates.

 

A single currency will not work across such diverse economies so I stand by my claim that it is the Euro that is the problem. Any currency has to be capable of dealing with politicians and once you get rid of the rogue countries then I am afraid the markets will start to pick apart the franco german alliance and sooner or later the whole thing will come tumbling down. Look after your guilders you may need them.

 

 

 

 

 

[DJH584]

Look after your guilders you may need them.

 

Not forgetting your francs, lira etc.

 

David

[spamcan61]

The currency is weak because the structure of the euro zone means that countries within it have no room for manoeuvre- unlike those not tied to a central rate.

I was one of those warning that when everything was going well Ireland Spain Greece etc were booming that what they really needed were high interest rates to dampen down the boom but they couldn't because Germany and France needed low interest rates.

 

A single currency will not work across such diverse economies so I stand by my claim that it is the Euro that is the problem. Any currency has to be capable of dealing with politicians and once you get rid of the rogue countries then I am afraid the markets will start to pick apart the franco german alliance and sooner or later the whole thing will come tumbling down. Look after your guilders you may need them.

 

I agree, a common currency cannot work in the long term across economies with different interest rates, I never could fathom how anybody with even 'O' level economics could think it was ever going to be sustainable in the long term.

 

I've currently got SEK, GBP, USD and EUR in my wallet - any each way bet I guess Pity the sum total value wouldn't buy me a Bachmann 9F

[PhilJ W]

 

A median salary of X does not mean there aren't lots of very well paid civil servants - in fact by definition at least 50% earn more than the median

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, 50% earn below that figure. Which probably includes a lot of front line staff. How many of the senior civil servants have to face the public on a day to day basis? In fact the top 9% account for 50% of the pay bill which means that 91% earn less than that figure.

[Foulounoux]

Our base interest rate is 0.5% - despite what credit card companies, building societies etc charge us for loans. How does this compare with other EU zone countries?

Are their rates higher than ours? If so then £7 billion at 0.5% will no doubt be far more attractive to Ireland than the larger amount they are going to get from the EU.

Then of course there will be the exchange rate. The GBP has recently been fluctuating between 1.12 and 1.18 euro - sorry don't have the euro sign on my keyboard - so will the loan be for £7billion or the euro equivalent?

 

Just a couple of thoughts.

 

Regards

 

David

 

 

 

 

The rates that are charged are not the same as base rates

 

For example Ireland government debt would cost about 8% on the bond market compared to the 3-4 % for Germany/UK

 

So basically we will borrow at the 4% and charge Ireland an appropriate rate

 

Also shows why despite being skint this is a god deal for the Uk - as long as Ireland pay back the capital in 3 years time - and if they dont well then all hell breaks loose as it would cause such a crisis

 

 

Colin

 

 

Colin

[Foulounoux]

Not forgetting your francs, lira etc.

 

David

 

The french already do - they still show prices in French Francs in many stores mind you from what our neighbours say it only shows how much prices went up when they changed to the euro. They aren't fans of it.

[Kenton]

We must not confuse the issue of an individual/business pays on their debt to a bank and the interest paid/offered by governments on the sovereign debt they owe.

 

Many governments run a sovereign debt to pay for various ventures by the government. This debt is usually paid off by the growth in the economy.

In the same way as a business may borrow money from a bank to pay for capital investment which they then use to make revenue to pay off the debt and its interest (servicing). The business hopefully with that capital investment will buy other goods and make a product or service which it sells ultimately to make a profit.

The country should also be making similar investments and not frittering them away on ventures that do not produce growth.

 

If a country is unable to convince those who are lending money that their word is good or that they are going to service the debt then a loan will not be available or only at a much higher rate.

 

Much like if you went to the bank and asked for a load for a new model railway - unless the bank can be certain of getting the loan back with interest then the loan will not be given or only under severe terms. Thankfully the days of really stupid loans for 100-125% of value and where the debtor has no or insufficient income to even service the loan are gone.

 

I think we should all be thankful that the pound is now considered worthy of a loan unlike Ireland's Euro, it was only a few months ago that things were looking much different.

[oldknotty]

That being the case, I'd expect our US cousins would want to dive in.

 

Ed

We might have been able to if the last administration had not blown all our money and two bloody useless wars and put us up to our armpits in debt !!!!!!!!!!!!! Then this one wants to give what we have left to pakistan ?????????????

[grahame]

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, 50% earn below that figure. Which probably includes a lot of front line staff. How many of the senior civil servants have to face the public on a day to day basis? In fact the top 9% account for 50% of the pay bill which means that 91% earn less than that figure.

 

Ehhh?

 

Isn't it the case that the 50% earning below that figure (the median) could all be earning just £1 less than it while all those above could be earning £25K more than it and that the figure quoted isn't an average you can multiply up to get the total pay bill?

 

G.

[Revolution Mike]

Ehhh?

 

Isn't it the case that the 50% earning below that figure (the median) could all be earning just £1 less than it while all those above could be earning £25K more than it and that the figure quoted isn't an average you can multiply up to get the total pay bill?

 

G.

 

Correct - Phil J W is mixing up medians and means...

[Dogsurfer]

Does anyone understand this? Apparently we will lend(although probably not get back) them money to repay debts they can't afford to repay so that they can carry on buying lots of stuff that we make(what do we make?) that they clearly can't afford.

Can anyone explain this in terms that I can understand, 'cos the telly and wireless have failed to do so.

 

Ed

 

I think this is pretty standard practice: The Americans did something similar after the second world war with the UK: The idea is to keep money in circulation (and therefore trade) in order to stop rapid deflation taking place since this results in unemployment and a world crisis etc.

 

Basic idea: I give you money, you spend it on my goods, my economy keeps going and maybe (as an extra bonus) you're still in debt to me 50 years onwards, but you get to keep your population happy since your economy doesn't crash either.

 

It's euphemistically called International Aid. B)

[S.A.C Martin]

Just something my dad (ex-money market dealer, on Dollar, Pound, Francs, and the Euro in his last few years) has always said: "a single currency can't generate the competition and accumulative wealth required for the markets to expand, normally done by buying and selling in a range of different currencies on different levels of interest".

 

Don't know if it applies here, with the Euro under close scrutiny.