Dynamis / loco set up

[Ruston]

At the RMweb members' day earlier this year I had a go on Andy Y's Dynamis-operated layout and was sold on the whole idea of DCC - it was brilliant! I never wanted sound or other gimmicks, what I wanted was the ability to run locos at a very slow speed for shunting/buffering up etc. (after all it is a shunting layout!) and the idea that you have full voltage running in the rails at all times appealed because I thought this would give better running by lessening the chance of stalling due to poor contact between rail and wheel.

 

Well I am very disappointed with the DCC experience. It may be alright with 8 or 12 wheel pickup RTR locos but it isn't proving very good with my scratch and kit-built 4 wheeled locos. I admit that they my not be built to the finest standards but they seemed to run better on plain old DC and it shouldn't be like that.

 

Firstly, because the DCC seems to start the locos off at a crawl and builds the speed up despite the regulator being whacked open, they tend to stall dead before they get chance to speed up. So is there some way of setting the controller so it kicks off with a higher starting speed? Also, with DC I could tell if a loco is beginning to struggle and give it more juice to prevent it stalling, but with DCC I can't because of the same thing. It's becoming no fun at all having to poke the locos all the time. If the setting can be changed for the starting speed, is there anything can be done about how long it takes to give it more juice? With a DC controller I can go from 0 to full power in as fast as I can turn the knob but with the Dynamis, it goes at its own pace even with the throttle pushed all the way.

 

Then there's the noise. I have a kit-built Hudswell Clarke with a mashima motor and 40:1 gears. It makes an awful growling and buzzing noise when crawling along but it never seemed to make as much noise on DC. Why would that be?

 

Before anyone asks the obvious, yes, the track is clean! I've been having a go with it this evening and cleaned it all with methylated spirit.

 

Help would be greatly appreciated but please, NO tecno speak! I just about gave up last time I posted anything in this section. I'm stupid. I don't do technology. Just tell me which buttons to press and which numbers to enter.

 

Thanks,

[noiseboy72]

Put simply, its not the dynamis, its the chips you have in the locos!

 

You need to change the CV to remove or reduce the intertia and change to a different type of decoder that suits your motor better. I personally like the TCS decoders as there are very quiet and can be set to different speed curves with ease.

 

Try cleaning the wheels and pickups as well as the track. This should also improve running.

 

There you go, no teccy speak B)

[Andy LMRG]

I'm afraid you DO have to invest in some understanding of DCC if you want to gain benefits. However let me assure you that we run small locos on DCC without 12 wheel pickup etc. so it is possible. You will need to change a few of the values that DCC uses to see if you can make a difference. There are basically two levels of sophistication - basic and rather advanced. The advanced involves using speed tables, and particularly if you need a "kick start" (and one of our locos most definately does) then you may need to go down this route. However lets try the basics first.

You need to set certain Configuration Variables (CVs) or parameters if you prefer. These are in each decoder in each loco. The first one to try is set CV No 3 to 0. This gives you the most instant acceleration / responsiveness to the throttle you can get. Most decoders allow a value between 0 and 63 but typically 0 - 10 is usually appropriate. The other one to try is CV No 2- the start voltage, V-start, is the extra voltage added to the motor drive voltage at the first speed step. This adjustment allows you to compensate for the loco motor's efficiency. The range you can program for this CV value is usually from 0 to either 63 or 255 depending on your decoder.

I'm not a Dynamis person so cannot tell you how to do this on the Dynamis I'm afraid, but there are plenty of others on the web who will be more than happy to advise.

Hope this helps, and we shunt (with clean rails and clean wheels) most effectively.

 

Andy

[Nigelcliffe]

I agree its the decoders, and to get the best you need to get the right decoder for the model, and set the decoder up appropriately. I run small models with four wheels reliably in 2mm scale and 4mm scale.

 

There are a few things in Andy's post above where I part company...

Many decoders take values to 255 for the CV's he mentions (Its ESU who use 63 as the max value), though for most values below 10 for CV2 are appropriate.

If setting CV3 (acceleration) to 0 for "instant" response, then also set CV4 (deceleration) to 0 at the same time.

Or, if the decoder supports it, set "yard mode" to a function key and use that key to turn momentum (acceleration and deceleration) on or off.

 

 

But, you may well need the advanced stuff. To make locos work really well its often necessary to set various motor parameters associated with the BEMF sensing (frequency and sensing period) and feedback (sometimes called "P" and "I"). The CV numbers will vary with decoder manufacturer (and cheap decoders may not have these options). The buzzing and growling noises are associated with these parameters; get them right and the loco will run quietly.

 

 

My own approach is to buy high-end decoders (Zimo in my 4mm stuff) because of the motor control quality, and in part, the decent (if lengthy!) documentation. Zimo decoders are often over £30 each. But others find mid-range items (eg. TCS and Lenz "Standard") performs acceptably on many 4mm scale models.

 

Assuming your locos are mechanically OK you can get good running.

 

 

- Nigel

[Andy LMRG]

I agree with Nigel. However I'd point out that if you try to enter values which exceed the maximum specified for that particular CV on that decoder while you will not do damage it can have unpredictable results depending on the decoder. Hence my suggestion of a max of 63 although most leading decoders WILL take 255 as Nigel says. If you know what decoder you have / have the documentation use that - otherwise keep the values low until you have experimented a bit. I also agree that you get what you pay for. Cheap decoders are in my view a route to problems. We use a mix of Lenz and Digitrax - both come with reasonable documentation and the Digitrax Programme Manual gives quite a good overview of settings (incidentally it can be downloaded free from the Digitrax web site).

[Ron Ron Ron]

It would be useful to know what decoders are being used in this instance?

 

Dave, I may be mistaken, but from two sentences in your post I suspect there may also be a fundamental misunderstanding of how DCC works.

 

"So is there some way of setting the controller so it kicks off with a higher starting speed?"

"I can go from 0 to full power in as fast as I can turn the knob but with the Dynamis, it goes at its own pace even with the throttle pushed all the way."

The function carried out by turning the knob on your DC controller is now carried out within the decoder on-board the loco. With DCC the controller is in the chip.

As the others above have suggested, what you need to do is change the behaviour of the controller (i.e. the decoder) to alter the running characteristics of the loco in response to your Commands via the throttle.

Hopefully the decoders being used will allow you to alter the appropriate CV's and adjust the BEMF to achieve the smooth running you should be getting.

If the decoders are the cheap budget types, the degree of adjustability may be limited or not even available.

 

The other thing to check is the speed step setting.

[mikeg]

Hi, I to agree with most if not all that has been said above, but would add the following comments;

 

A The track has to be clean but I find that it needs cleaning much less with DCC.

 

B The wheels and pickups must be clean and correctly adjusted, this is VERY important with 0-4-0 locos, I have one that kept stalling as you have found although it had run without trouble on DC, the problem turned out to be a loose bearing that allowed the wheel to loose contact with the plunger pickup so the loco became a 0-2-0 and on less than purfect track was loosing contact from the rail by the only wheel with a pickup.

 

C The type of decoder makes a big differance with the type of motor being used, I now use mainly TCS T1's as they were recomended for the mashima motors that I mostly have, but work well with larger O scale motors that draw 1-2 amps, these need the start voltage adjusting to 10 in CV 2 the max that seems to make any differance, most of my locos are set to 0 but some are 3, 5 or as stated 10.

 

D I do not have any experiance of the dynamis other than to try it at a demonstration and I did not like it, I have the Gaugemaster Prodigy which I have just had upgraded to use the wireless conversion and am very pleased with it, especially the shunt mode when the knob becomes bi-directional.

 

hope the above helps, DCC is fun but you have to learn how to use it, its not quite 'plug & play' yet!

 

regards

 

mike g

[Tay Bridge]

Hi

 

I have Dynamis on my layout and all my operations are done at low speed. You can alter all sorts of things but as said it needs a Decoder that can be adjusted where needed. Only drawback with Basic Dynamis is you cannot read settings but you can change them. Suggest you talk face to face with a few folk and get a true understanding of how it works. I certainly had to and still have to ask for help. A learning process but the advantages FAR outway any teething problems.

keep trying!

 

Chris

[craigwelsh]

Zimo chips allow you to store energy in a capacitor too if you have room to fit it which helps with the pickups on a small shunter. The suggestions the others have made though, if followed, should negate much of the need for that however.

 

You will need to do some technical reading to get the best out of DCC im afraid.

[melmerby]

Zimo chips allow you to store energy in a capacitor too if you have room to fit it which helps with the pickups on a small shunter.

 

Lenz Gold also.

 

Keith

[Ruston]

Thanks for the replies.

 

It would be useful to know what decoders are being used in this instance?

 

Dave, I may be mistaken, but from two sentences in your post I suspect there may also be a fundamental misunderstanding of how DCC works.

 

"So is there some way of setting the controller so it kicks off with a higher starting speed?"

"I can go from 0 to full power in as fast as I can turn the knob but with the Dynamis, it goes at its own pace even with the throttle pushed all the way."

 

The function carried out by turning the knob on your DC controller is now carried out within the decoder on-board the loco. With DCC the controller is in the chip.

As the others above have suggested, what you need to do is change the behaviour of the controller (i.e. the decoder) to alter the running characteristics of the loco in response to your Commands via the throttle.

Hopefully the decoders being used will allow you to alter the appropriate CV's and adjust the BEMF to achieve the smooth running you should be getting.

If the decoders are the cheap budget types, the degree of adjustability may be limited or not even available.

 

The other thing to check is the speed step setting.

 

I do understand that it's the decoder that actually does it but you have to control and set the decoder by the thing you hold in your hands, which to me is a controller.

 

The decoders are Bachmann, about 1 inch long by 1/2 inch wide and had 6 wires IIRC. I only use those from the pickups and to the motor. I cut the spare ones off as I've no intention of running accessories such as lights and sound. They were rated for up to 1 amp. Beyond that I can't remember and have no lost the sheet that came with them - the one that says what all the CVs do. I also can't find the instruction book for the Dynamis!

 

So what I really need to know is which CV does what, what to set it to to best suit my layout/locos and what knobs and buttons to press to actually set them. It's just alien to me to be faffing around with so many settings. Choice isn't always a good thing. For example I only have 5 TV channels and I like it that way.

 

P.S. The loco wheels are clean.

[Ron Ron Ron]

If it's any help, you can download the Dynamis User Guide from these two links....

 

Dynamis User Guide

Dynamis Digital Train Set set-up

 

 

From your description, the Decoders may be the old (Lenz sourced) 2-function type (36-552).

 

36-552 instruction sheet

 

They don't have BEMF, but you can adjust the starting voltage, the acceleration and deceleration momentum.

[noiseboy72]

Unfortunately, as with everything in life, more features means more "faff" You say you are happy with 5 TV channels and that is fine. I have Sky+HD with hundreds of channels. Why ? Because I can pause live TV if the phone rings, record series with the press of one button and watch loads of stuff that is not repeated on the Big 5 but that I missed the first time. It is more hassle. I need a Sky box, dish etc. but it is worth it. Same with my car. In my first car 20 years ago, you got in, turned the key, tuned the radio and drove away. My current car has bluetoooth that needed setting up to my phone, so that I can make calls and play the music off it, it has Sat Nav, adjustable traction control, a 5 way adjustable seat, climate control etc... It all needs a bit of time to learn, but I know which car I prefer to drive.

 

With DCC, you have seen the slow running qualities, to my mind more prototypical "Drive the train, not the track" philosophy and also the abiliity to park locos next to each other without isolated sections etc. but as you are finding out, you need to invest a little time into learning how to use it properly.

 

The good news is most basic functions are the same for almost all decoders. CV3 is acceleration and CV4 deceleration. As already suggested, set these to 0 for instant control. The chips you have sound like the basic £10 each types that work fine in most locos, but don't work very quietly due to their relatively coarse motor control. Try a more expensive chip and see it that helps.

 

As you are on this forum, you are obviously not a technophobe. Please don't let these niggles with DCC put you off. It is worth spending the time (once) and enjoying running your layout at a higher level.

[craigwelsh]

Lenz Gold also.

 

Keith

I specifically didn't mention that as with the Lenz you fit a 'Power 1' module which isn't just an off the shelf capacitor like the Zimo solution. The Lenz method retains control while running over the debris.

 

I don't believe 36-552 is an ex-Lenz chip. The Lenz chips were the old LE1014 and LE1024/5 and were both 4 function. That chip might be one of the old ESU models instead.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I don't believe 36-552 is an ex-Lenz chip. The Lenz chips were the old LE1014 and LE1024/5 and were both 4 function. That chip might be one of the old ESU models instead.

The manufacturer code is 101 - i.e. Bachmann, which doesn't help.

However IIRC it was stated on a couple of sites (Bachmann and Hattons) that the 36-550 (aka LE1014E) and 36-552 were Lenz products.

 

Try Bachmann. They should be able to clarify the origin of the 36-552.

 

 

[Ruston]

I've found the instruction book and the sheet of paper for the decoder (36-552).

 

I seem to have fixed the problem of not being able to open the throttle quickly enough and it is a setting on the conroller and not on the decoder. There is a setting for the joystick speed delay, which I have set to zero.

 

I can't set the CVs of the decoder as suggested though. I've looked at the book and gone as far as selecting PROGRAM ON MAIN TRACK then selecting the CV that needs to be adjusted. I've gone on to adjust it as far as altering the figure on the display on the controller goes but I can't tell if it's taken it on board. If I've got it adjusting, say, CV2 and I adjust the figure - how do I get it to send what I want to the decoder? According to the book I should press PROGRAM but the word PROGRAM isn't showing where it should on the display.

 

I've been able to alter some settings on the decoder, such as the speed steps but with that you have to press the button with the tick symbol to ACCEPT and not PROGRAM. With the altering of the CVs it doesn't show either of them.

[Ruston]

Unfortunately, as with everything in life, more features means more "faff" You say you are happy with 5 TV channels and that is fine. I have Sky+HD with hundreds of channels. Why ? Because I can pause live TV if the phone rings, record series with the press of one button and watch loads of stuff that is not repeated on the Big 5 but that I missed the first time. It is more hassle. I need a Sky box, dish etc. but it is worth it. Same with my car. In my first car 20 years ago, you got in, turned the key, tuned the radio and drove away. My current car has bluetoooth that needed setting up to my phone, so that I can make calls and play the music off it, it has Sat Nav, adjustable traction control, a 5 way adjustable seat, climate control etc... It all needs a bit of time to learn, but I know which car I prefer to drive.

 

As you are on this forum, you are obviously not a technophobe. Please don't let these niggles with DCC put you off. It is worth spending the time (once) and enjoying running your layout at a higher level.

 

I'm perfectly happy with 5 TV channels because I rarely watch any of them. If the phone rings then I talk to whoever it is, regardless of the telly. My car doesn't have anything that isn't directly involved with making it go. Climate control involves opening a window (that isn't powered by an electric motor) or a flap in the bulkhead, the seat isn't adjustable, it doesn't have or need bluteteeth, PAS or traction control. All that stuff means more things to go wrong and if I don't have it, it can't go wrong. If anything does go wrong I can fix it myself without recourse to needing a degree in computer science or paying a "technician" £100 per hour to suck air through his teeth. Even my relatively modern van (4 years old) was chosen because it doesn't have ABS, central locking etc.

 

I reallly am a luddite and if anything more needs doing with this here laptop than typing on it then I haven't a clue!

[Pete the Elaner]

I'm perfectly happy with 5 TV channels because I rarely watch any of them. If the phone rings then I talk to whoever it is, regardless of the telly. My car doesn't have anything that isn't directly involved with making it go. Climate control involves opening a window (that isn't powered by an electric motor) or a flap in the bulkhead, the seat isn't adjustable, it doesn't have or need bluteteeth, PAS or traction control. All that stuff means more things to go wrong and if I don't have it, it can't go wrong. If anything does go wrong I can fix it myself without recourse to needing a degree in computer science or paying a "technician" £100 per hour to suck air through his teeth. Even my relatively modern van (4 years old) was chosen because it doesn't have ABS, central locking etc.

 

I reallly am a luddite and if anything more needs doing with this here laptop than typing on it then I haven't a clue!

 

I don't have a problem with any of the above & I'm a bit that way with my cars too.

There has been a lot of mention of tuning the decoder performance. This is easier with a system which can read back CVs (although not impossible without). We are talking more adjusting & fiddling which doesn't sound like it is what you want.

You are not interested in many of the features offered by DCC: lights, sound, tweaking running charcteristics etc.

 

I was a sceptic of DCC until I tried it for myself. It took me 2 hours to get hooked & I think it is great.... for me..

I'm not so sure it is the right thing for you.

[Sunnysa]

 

I was a sceptic of DCC until I tried it for myself. It took me 2 hours to get hooked & I think it is great.... for me..

I'm not so sure it is the right thing for you.

 

Having been a DCC operator for 15yrs I can not op on a DC analogue lay out it is just to hard and not enjoyable at all.

 

I do agree with Pete, if Faffing about and learning new things is not your bag then DCC is definitely not for you.

 

It took me a fair bit of time to come to terms with DCC and 15yrs ago the learning curve was steep. There was nobody here in South Australia to help. There was no forums etc.

Perseverance has paid of for me and now I op model trains and not toys. I drive the trains and not the layout.

 

I must admit,the Dynamis is not the DCC system I would choose for a DCC novice.

 

Although I don't use NCE I believe the PowerCab is probably the best DCC starter set on the market.

 

Also, I would not use Hornby or Bachman decoders if given to me. I have seen to many DCC novices get turned off DCC by them.

 

This of course is only my opinion.

 

Cheers

Ian

[Ruston]

Thanks for the replies but I think it's all been a waste of time. I've bought a set of rollers to test the locos on. It's shown up deficiencies in the locos themselves so I don't think it's really a DCC problem. It's more a case of ambition over ability because although I can put a kit together, paint it and make it look pretty, evidently I can't make them work properly. They can look as good as the real thing but it they won't run properly then they may as well go in the bin.

 

When I put them on the newly cleaned track and with newly cleaned wheels, it's still hit and miss. They'll stop at the slightest change of curve, joint or tiny speck of dirt that appears unless they're running at over 7/14 on the speed scale. Which is no good at all for a shunting loco.

 

I suppose it's partly a DCC problem because it isn't possible to have such fine control with DC so it never showed up before. Well I say "before" but TBH they were only ever test run up and down a few lengths of plain track on DC before I built the layout, bought the Dynamis and chipped them. I never really ran them in anger and never tried to buffer up to wagons or cross turnouts etc.

 

I just can't build locos to a good enough standard so I'm thinking of jacking it in. Not just DCC but the whole thing.

[noiseboy72]

Please don't lose heart!

 

Is this just a case of tinkering with the pickups to improve things ? I have an Bachmann pannier tank that always stalled on my double slip. A strip down and tweak with the pick ups sorted it.

 

May be the Lenz / Zimo decoders with the power storage will help. They only supply power for a second, but this might be enough. Change the CV so that the locos "remember" their previous speed setting after a signal loss.

[corax67]

Hold on there Dave, don't despair.

 

This modeling game takes time, an awful lot of time, to get the hang of - that is if any of us can truthfully say we have it sussed.

 

I have been into railway modeling for nearly 30 years and I still have days when I feel like chucking it all because it is all going haywire. Loco's won't run or layouts have mystery electrical faults or a weathering job won't go right

 

I have run DCC for 10 years, fitted decoders commercially for 2 shops (well over 2000 done to date) and still I cannot state with 100% conviction what decoder will make what motor/gearbox/loco combination run perfectly at first turn of the throttle - but that is the challenge of the hobby, sometimes spending 3 or 4 hours tweaking CV's and throttle curves on a PC to get optimum running is what it takes.

 

More than once my wife has physically stopped me from taking a large hammer to a chassis I built that would not run even remotely smoothly (a Roxey Sentinel motorising kit, as basic as it gets) - I had built dozens before with never a hitch - and eventually I had to admit defeat and bin it as no amount of fettling was ever going to set it right.

 

Loco building is a ###### to master but please do not give up - keep trying and you will get there - honest.

 

Maybe try an RTR loco for a while to restore your faith, a Bachmann 08 with a Lenz Gold decoder set to shunting mode will give you all the low speed running you want until you refine your kit building technique.

[M Graff]

Locomotive building isn´t a walk in the park, so to say. I have been model railroading for 25 years and have built many things during that time, but locomotives have always tested my patience.

If I wouldn´t have my RTR locomotives to run when the ones I building is acting up, I would have gotten out of it a long time ago!

More often than not when a small loco is having problems to run good, I have often noticed that it is either the power pickups OR that the chassie is too stiff to actually follow the small undulations in the tracks (or to little side play...).

[Durban shunter]

I can't set the CVs of the decoder as suggested though. I've looked at the book and gone as far as selecting PROGRAM ON MAIN TRACK then selecting the CV that needs to be adjusted. I've gone on to adjust it as far as altering the figure on the display on the controller goes but I can't tell if it's taken it on board. If I've got it adjusting, say, CV2 and I adjust the figure - how do I get it to send what I want to the decoder? According to the book I should press PROGRAM but the word PROGRAM isn't showing where it should on the display.

 

 

 

 

Hi Rus. I also could not make sense of mine when I first got it.  enter cv2 as you did above then you must press the value key,only when  you do this the word programme will appear on the bottom right,it automatically starts at 0,you then type in the value from 1-255. cv2 should be the kick start. On most good running trains it will move slightly in either direction once you hit the programme button, CV3 and 4 press the value key,don't alter the value and hit programme, This should make the train start immediately and also stop immediately. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

[Ruston]

enter cv2 as you did above then you must press the value key,only when you do this the word programme will appear on the bottom right,it automatically starts at 0,you then type in the value from 1-255. cv2 should be the kick start. On most good running trains it will move slightly in either direction once you hit the programme button, CV3 and 4 press the value key,don't alter the value and hit programme, This should make the train start immediately and also stop immediately.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

So what you're saying is that when setting CV3 and 4, it just sends the change straight to the decoder immediately that the value is altered? That's why the tick or PROG doesn't show up on the display?