Info Required - 1977 Bristol to Glasgow/ Edinburgh Service

[NeilH]

Hi

 

I was wondering if anyone could help me with the passenger train coach formation of the 8.15am Bristol to Glasgow/ Edinburgh service in 1977. I caught this service a number of times from 1976 to 1980 on trips to Crewe but can not remember the formation in 1977.

 

Last missing information required for passenger trains for a model rail project.

 

Thanks and Regards

 

Neil.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Neil,

The Passenger Train Marshalling Circular for 3.5.76 - 1.5.77 gives the following for the

08.18 Bristol - Glasgow/Edinburgh (Mk2 air-braked)

 

Formation from Bristol TM (reverses at B'ham NS):

 

Loco + BFK, TSO, TSO, TSO, TSO (for Edinburgh)/ TSO, TSO, TSO, RB, SO, FK, BSO, BG (for Glasgow)

 

13 coaches = 455 tons

[NeilH]

Many thanks Peter,

 

Kind Regards,

 

Neil.

[robertcwp]

Here is the 1977-8 formation from the WR marshalling book:

 

[NeilH]

Here is the 1977-8 formation from the WR marshalling book:

 

 

Robert

 

Many thanks for this post. I was wondering if you could just help me clarify something. The excerpt from the marshalling books states that the coaches are Mk 2E/F stock but I guess some of the coaches would be Mk2a (BFK,FK) ?

 

I remember one of the last times I caught this train from Bristol (for Crewe Works Open day) - I remember a 47/7 heading through Temple Meads with what I think was a motorail service for the south west - Happy memories !

 

Regards

 

Neil.

[Flood]

There is a possibility that the FK and BFK could be Mk2D air-con stock if the rake was allocated to the Midland Region but it is normally stated if the rake is formed from another region's stock (as Robert states it is from a Western Region marshalling book).

 

The likelyhood is, as you've suggested, that the BFK and FK are pressure vent stock. Just a note of caution, whilst the Western had 16 air braked Mk2a BFKs in 1978 (from the RCTS Coaching Stock book) all but two of their Mk2a FKs had been converted to vacuum brakes (13464 and 13465). Far more likely would have been one of their 25 Mk2b FKs.

 

Seeing as Bachmann make a Mk2a FK and no-one makes a Mk2b FK I'd forget percentages and go for the easy option.

 

I've also noticed that the formation states an SO by the FK. The only applicable SO stock on BR were declassified Mk1 FOs used by the WR and the ER and they all had air brakes and dual heat. Looks like another interesting coach for the formation and although the only rtr model is the Replica one I've just started to re-window one of these with Replica flush glaze. It actually looks rather good.

[NeilH]

Many thanks Flood.

 

Really helpful and interesting information.

 

Regards

 

Neil.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

There was a batch of Mk2 SOs constructed at Derby in 1966 (5229-5256) - 48 seats as against 64 for a TSO.

 

These were often marshalled next to a restaurant car, as in the example above. In effect a dining car with tables laid out for sit down meals.

 

By 1979, AB examples were: M5245-M5248, M5251-M5256.

Those with public address equipment being 5251-5256. I reckon the SO in this formation was one of those six.

 

I think the Bristol - Glas/Edin train mentioned was comprised of LMR stock.

[robertcwp]

I also have the LMR 1977-8 marshalling book, though not yet scanned.

 

This does not give the region of allocation, which suggests LMR.

 

There is an amendment stating that the FO adjacent to the RBR was changed to SO Mark 2 air brake from 4/7/77. Seating was amended to 66 first/497 second.

 

As stock appears to have been LMR, the BFK and FK were probably IId. The LMR book does not distinguish d/e/f listing them all as Mark 2 air conditioned.

 

Carriage workings should not be relied upon on their own. You need photos or film to corroborate formations listed.

[Flood]

Thank you to Western Sunset and to Robert for those clarifications. I'm surprised that the WR book doesn't state the stock as being LMR.

 

I'm interested in most Western Region workings of this period so I'll have a look around for any photos I may have in books.

 

Edit:

I've found two photos of the 13.23 Edinburgh/13.35 Glasgow - Taunton but they appear to be later than 1977-78.

 

Diesels on the Western shows 45139 at Bromsgrove. The leading coach could be a Mk2b or Mk2c (probably a Mk2c for an LMR rake) and the last six coaches appear to be:

Mk2 press vent (Mk2/Mk2a SO or TSO, no toilet window or gap between the last full size window and the door), RBR, 2 x Mk2 air con TSO, Mk2 press vent TSO (Mk2b or Mk2c), BG

 

The other photo is in NE/SW Main Line Album and shows 45104 again at Bromsgrove. Dated June 1980 the rake is:

Loco, Mk2 air con TSO, prob Mk2c TSO, 2 x Mk2 air con TSO, 2 x Mk2d BFK, unknown Mk2 air con...

[newbryford]

ISTR that the last workings of XP64 Mk1's were on this route. I certainly remember the unusual corridor layout [1] on a XP64 CK whilst trying to find a seat at BTM one day. Although, this may have been on one of the night sleeper services. It would be about 1978 as that's when I started collecting coaching stock numbers!

 

[1] The corridor was on one side of the coach for 1st class and the other side for second class.

 

Just another coach to add to the mix!

 

Cheers,

Mick

[robertcwp]

ISTR that the last workings of XP64 Mk1's were on this route. I certainly remember the unusual corridor layout [1] on a XP64 CK whilst trying to find a seat at BTM one day. Although, this may have been on one of the night sleeper services. It would be about 1978 as that's when I started collecting coaching stock numbers!

 

[1] The corridor was on one side of the coach for 1st class and the other side for second class.

 

Just another coach to add to the mix!

 

Cheers,

Mick

There were no XP64 CKs as built - perhaps a partially downgraded FK?

[newbryford]

There were no XP64 CKs as built - perhaps a partially downgraded FK?

 

Thanks for that - the FK's had staggered corridors.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[robertcwp]

I've found two photos of the 13.23 Edinburgh/13.35 Glasgow - Taunton but they appear to be later than 1977-78.

 

Diesels on the Western shows 45139 at Bromsgrove. The leading coach could be a Mk2b or Mk2c (probably a Mk2c for an LMR rake) and the last six coaches appear to be:

Mk2 press vent (Mk2/Mk2a SO or TSO, no toilet window or gap between the last full size window and the door), RBR, 2 x Mk2 air con TSO, Mk2 press vent TSO (Mk2b or Mk2c), BG

 

The other photo is in NE/SW Main Line Album and shows 45104 again at Bromsgrove. Dated June 1980 the rake is:

Loco, Mk2 air con TSO, prob Mk2c TSO, 2 x Mk2 air con TSO, 2 x Mk2d BFK, unknown Mk2 air con...

Diesels on the Western shows 45139 at Bromsgrove: leading vehicle is TSO 2c. Part of the train is obscured by the Lickey Bankers, but second vehicle is TSO 2e/f. There is a Mark 2a (or air-braked Mark 2) second ahead of the RB, with two air-cons beyond the buffet and what looks like another 2c ahead of the BG at the rear.

 

The other photo is in NE/SW Main Line Album and shows 45104 again at Bromsgrove: mostly air-con stock. Second vehicle is a TSO 2c and there are two BFK 2d 5th and 6th vehicles.