Iain Rice Type Couplings (& Alternatives)

[wiggoforgold]

Hi, I've had a look at your wagon photo's as above, Im curious what you do with the hoses & so on that clutter up diesle buffer beam. Don't these dangling appendages get in the way of the DG couplings?

 

Yours John.

 

John

What I do is to model as much of the dangling hoses etc as I can without getting in the way of the couplings. The couplings are quite narrow at the bufferbeam so detail can go either side, with the proviso that if it gets in the way of the operation of the coupling, or if it restricts movement on corners,it is cut back to allow operation, or left off completely.

One thing that always has to be left off is the scale coupling hook itself,as leaving this in place restricts the operation of the delayed action latch on the DG coupling.

On locos, I just fit a DG hook with the delayed action latch, and leave off the lifting loop and dropper.

Alex

[2ManySpams]

I've amended the title of the thread to reflect the discussion about the different types of 4mm couplings available and the pros / cons in use.

[2ManySpams]

Reasonable aericle, with photos, about fitting S&Ws here

[Kenton]

Sprat & Winkle - look just as bad as the tension lock?

Actually that is very unfair.

Probably out of all of the ones mentioned they are probably the most reliable and easiest to set up.

They will go down to a much lower radius than the rest especially if the 3mm version is used - though can still buffer lock.

Possibly the most important thing is they are delayed release so you can uncouple over a magnet remote from the dropping point.

[James]

Probably out of all of the ones mentioned they are probably the most reliable and easiest to set up.

They are easy to set up - they're very user friendly I find and 'd recommend them!

[2ManySpams]

Actually that is very unfair.

Probably out of all of the ones mentioned they are probably the most reliable and easiest to set up.

They will go down to a much lower radius than the rest especially if the 3mm version is used - though can still buffer lock.

Possibly the most important thing is they are delayed release so you can uncouple over a magnet remote from the dropping point.

 

Hi Kenton - I did slightly amend my initial view on S&Ws in post 19 having looked at the 3mm versions but it is still a blinkin' big pointy hook! Ok, when everything is coupled up they hide much better than the tension lock but viewed on the end of a wagon isn't that subtle IMO.

 

AJs are much less obtrusive but then you've got the reliability / constant tweaking issues. I'm not going down that route. Nor am I interested in 3 links (apart from perhaps short fixed rakes).

 

Think I'll have to invest in an MSE test pack and see what the S&Ws are like blackened up. A fairly consistent view though is that they are reliable, easy to set up and reasonably robust.

 

It all seems like there's no real 100% perfect solution and that all the current versions are a trade off between minimalist appearance and reliability. Perhaps that's why one design doesn't seem to have become the accepted alternative to tension lock.

[2ManySpams]

They are easy to set up - they're very user friendly I find and 'd recommend them!

 

MSE trial pack calling.....

[flubrush]

Think I'll have to invest in an MSE test pack and see what the S&Ws are like blackened up. A fairly consistent view though is that they are reliable, easy to set up and reasonably robust.

You can always roll your own S&W style couplings using brass wire which, when blackened, becomes almost invisible. It doesn't take long to bend up the hooks and loops. You need to arrange a pivot for the hooks and I mount a pivot bar some way in from the headstock using some heavy brass wire and pivot the hook wire using a piece of tube which is an easy fit on the pivot wire. On a short wheelbase wagon, one centrally mounted pivot bar can do both hooks. You can counterbalance the hooks using fishing line weights.

 

I found the home-brewed couplings were as near as dammit 100% reliable.

 

Jim.

[2ManySpams]

Looking at the MSE site it looks like the T/AC3/3 4mm finescale Sprat & Winkle Mk3 autocoupling trial pack is the one to go for. I already have a stock of straight 0,45mm wire for the paddle support/pivot and 0,33mm for the coupling bar (as suggested by James).

 

Does anyone find value with using the MP4 mounting plates?

[2ManySpams]

You can always roll your own S&W style couplings using brass wire which, when blackened, becomes almost invisible. It doesn't take long to bend up the hooks and loops. You need to arrange a pivot for the hooks and I mount a pivot bar some way in from the headstock using some heavy brass wire and pivot the hook wire using a piece of tube which is an easy fit on the pivot wire. On a short wheelbase wagon, one centrally mounted pivot bar can do both hooks. You can counterbalance the hooks using fishing line weights.

 

I found the home-brewed couplings were as near as dammit 100% reliable.

 

Jim.

 

Hi Jim

This sounds remarkably like the Iain Rice 'Bingewood' coupling, albeit a variation on the pivot location - which is where I started the thread from from. Do you have any photos of your version in action / fitted to a wagon? I'd particularly be interested in the pivot arrangement and the shape of your hook.

 

Thanks

[Kenton]

It all seems like there's no real 100% perfect solution and that all the current versions are a trade off between minimalist appearance and reliability. Perhaps that's why one design doesn't seem to have become the accepted alternative to tension lock.

That and the inertia of changing. Once you have committed every item of stock to whatever system of your choice, the idea of changing them all again for little overall gain makes you a vehement follower of the one you first tried.

 

Of course you could always adopt a Kadee - quite realistic for coaching stock, but they are not exactly smooth operating or unobtrusive.

 

BTW blackening the hook and bar is essential on S&W and makes them invisible to my eyes.

[2ManySpams]

That and the inertia of changing. Once you have committed every item of stock to whatever system of your choice, the idea of changing them all again for little overall gain makes you a vehement follower of the one you first tried.

 

Of course you could always adopt a Kadee - quite realistic for coaching stock, but they are not exactly smooth operating or unobtrusive.

 

BTW blackening the hook and bar is essential on S&W and makes them invisible to my eyes.

 

Well the first couplings I used were Lima back in the day - I think I'm well over that now

 

I was going to go Kadee for all my stock having used them on my rakes of Southern coaches. I've a few wagons fitted up with Kadees but, to be honest, the appearance jars a bit. The other issue is that they don't look great on the front end of steam locos - no option for a simple loop here. Mind you I found the operation and reliability to be good.

 

Do you use the gun blue for blackening?

[Ben Alder]

 

 

Does anyone find value with using the MP4 mounting plates?

 

I tried it, but decided it was too much faff, and fit the 3mm ones to the wagon floor or on a packing piece of poly. If you can live with a single ended use, and blacken them, then they are quite unobtrusive, and to my mind about the best with regard to ease of assembly and reliability.

Richard

[flubrush]

This sounds remarkably like the Iain Rice 'Bingewood' coupling, albeit a variation on the pivot location - which is where I started the thread from from. Do you have any photos of your version in action / fitted to a wagon? I'd particularly be interested in the pivot arrangement and the shape of your hook.

I'll have to go and try and dig out some of my S scale rolling stock. Variations on this method are used by several S scale modellers in the UK, so the method is not original to me. I think I was the one who started doing the centre pivot idea on four wheeled stock and I nicked that idea from a Scale4 society kit for AJ couplings which I saw at Railwells The hook shape looks like a straight Alex Jackson hook - i.e. without the angular bends around the axis of the wire of the AJ.

 

I'll go digging in the morning - I can't remember where I've stored my stock boxes.

 

Jim.

[2ManySpams]

Thanks Jim

[Will Vale]

Agree on not needing the mounting plates - my fret is almost untouched. Lately I've been drilling up into the headstocks with an ~0.4mm bit (using the paddle as a template) and fitting the staple with friction and two tiny dots of super glue, similarly for the loop. Much quicker than soldering the staple and loop to the plate. The most important thing for reliability seems to be to get the paddle to tip very freely.

 

I believe I read somewhere on RMWeb (Mikkel's blog?) that using Peco track pins was a good way to mount the paddles - and I can see it'd avoid the need to get really sharp bends in the wire staple - but I didn't get on with that when I tried it. Possibly it would work with a different diameter drill bit, to get a friction fit?

 

Worth exploring at any rate.

 

 

Will

 

 

[2ManySpams]

The MSE website mentions that the 3mm S&W can be used on a radius of 4' but that using the mounting plate can get this down to 2'. How on earth is the mounting plate supposed to help do that? Have I missed something?

[Jamie]

The MSE website mentions that the 3mm S&W can be used on a radius of 4' but that using the mounting plate can get this down to 2'. How on earth is the mounting plate supposed to help do that? Have I missed something?

 

I would guess it permits the coupling paddle to be mounted further 'forward' ie away from the centre of the item of stock.

 

FWIW I've been building them on the baseplates, for two reasons:

 

- ensures loop and hook pivot are in correct vertical relationship

- permits batch building

 

I'm also thinking on modifying them to give better resistance to damage, mine fared very badly in transit to their debut show, and reliability was absolutely dire.

[2ManySpams]

Jamie, what mods are you thinking about?

[Kenton]

Do you use the gun blue for blackening?

No I use Carrs blackening - or simply a light painting - you realy only need to lose the shine. I'm sure gun black would work just as well if not better.

 

I also use the base plates and can confirm that using them you can go down to Radius 1. They do seem to lose the "delayed" uncoupling feature at such severe curves and especially through reverse curves. So good planning of uncoupling magnets is more important.

 

I'm another of those who also batch produces the couplings.

 

Although they can be a bit fragile in transit, I think all the alternatives are worse, they are so easy to bend back to alignment and do not require the exacting standards of some of the others AJ's especially

[Jamie]

Jamie, what mods are you thinking about?

The protruding arm of the hook is easily bent by contact with foreign objects. If it bends vertically, it won't move enough to couple/uncouple, if it bends horizontally it tightens the gap which catches the loop.

 

Therefore, I'm intending to try and reinforce the twisted bend at the root of the hook, once tweaked into the correct position. Probably by means of wire reinforcement.

 

Some vehicles also appeared to sustain damage to the end hook, which is perhaps less easy to mitigate against.

 

Such is the plan anyway. It's another on my list of uninspiring tasks which I'll need to knuckle down and get on with.

 

I don't expect the above text makes much sense, I'll try and show some images of the damage victims and proposed modifications over the weekend if of interest.

 

And of course, I'll be modifying my stock transport boxes to hold the sides of the vehicle and protect vehicle ends better as a matter of course

[flubrush]

Thanks Jim

 

I managed to find some stock. Please note that these haven't seen the light of day for over twenty years when I had my last S scale layout on the exhibition circuit, so there's a bit of rust on the wheels and axles, and a missing buffer on one wagon.

 

And my memory was slightly defective. I forgot that I had opted for single end couplings, so I can't find a wagon with a central pivot and two hook arms. I do remember making a two arm vehicle with a central pivot, but |I think that was probably altered to go single hook.

 

The first picture is of the hook with its delayed uncoupling fitting

 

 

The dropper is a piece of paper clip wire soldered to the hook wire close to the axle of the wagon.

 

The next picture is the loop at the other end of the wagon - with the missing buffer.

 

 

The next picture is the underside of the wagon - with the rust.

 

 

You can see the heavy brass wire used as a pivot and the hook wire soldered to a piece of tube mounted on the pivot. The paper clip wire dropper is also prominent as is the fishing weight crimped on to the hook wire as a counterbalance. A brass etched underframe is excellent for fitting all these bits.

 

Lastly, a shot of the couplings mated

 

 

When blackened they become almost invisible and I left quite a lot of mine un-blackened so that I could see them

 

The turnout the stock is sitting on is for my new S scale layout after a break of all these years. Unfortunately it will be Caledonian, so these wagons will probably find a new home, but they will be useful for testing at the moment.

 

Jim.

[2ManySpams]

Jim

 

Thanks for the shots

 

Trying to get my head around how the delayed uncoupling works....presumably some cunning interface with the second, higher bent wire??

[2ManySpams]

I don't expect the above text makes much sense, I'll try and show some images of the damage victims and proposed modifications over the weekend if of interest.

 

 

Yes please Jamie

[t-b-g]

The couplings I use are very similar to those illustrated already with a couple of minor variations. I did try to build in the delayed uncoupling but didn't like the "double shuffle" needed to make it work so I abandoned it. I prefer to have a good number of uncoupling magnets scattered around. I am involved with several layouts and some use electromagnets (SEEP) and others permanent magnets (from "Wizard Models/MSE). Both work well but have plusses and minuses. Permanent magnets require less accurate positioning of the wagons, are cheaper and don't need any electrickery! They can cause problems if you have several down a siding and wagons of differing lengths. Eletromagnets seem to require a more accurate positioning of the wagons and involve more work. On the whole I prefer the electromagnets as they avoid any unwanted uncouplings, which can happen if you have free running wagons and a magnet pulling on the tyres/axles!

 

Secondly, I don't have a pivot on the coupling. I have one wire, to the far end of a wagon, as per the Alex Jackson type. The droppers are split pins from old three link sprung couplings and the wire is "top E" guitar string or equivalent. Here are some piccies to illustrate.....