Cornishman coach formation

[Kempenfelt]

So was the Penzance - Wolverhampton train the "Cornishman" or was there an un-named service(s) that also took this route? If it helps, i got the timings for the Penzance - Wolves service as leaving Penzance at 10:35.

 

Chris F or anyone else, would you be able to provide the corresponding info on this service, either from the "Operation Cornwall" book or via other means?

 

Best Wishes

 

Paul

[Kris]

So was the Penzance - Wolverhampton train the "Cornishman" or was there an un-named service(s) that also took this route? If it helps, i got the timings for the Penzance - Wolves service as leaving Penzance at 10:35.

 

Chris F or anyone else, would you be able to provide the corresponding info on this service, either from the "Operation Cornwall" book or via other means?

 

 

Operation Cornwall has this as leaving at 10:30. This was the Cornishman.

[Kempenfelt]

Thanks Kris, reasonable to assume we're all talking about the same train here then!

[melmerby]

Thanks guys

 

It looks like from your research that there may well have been a Penzance - North service via the Midland as well as the Cornishman running via the GWR route before it too was moved to the Midland route.

 

I was always a bit puzzled by my trip as I thought if it was the Cornishman it would have still gone via the GWR in '62

 

I have noticed that later in the 60's and up to the 80's the "Peaks" started going deeper into WR territory beyond Bristol as I have seen 'photos of them down in Somerset and Devon.

Were some allocated to WR sheds or did they just travel further?

 

Keith

[robertcwp]

Thanks guys

 

It looks like from your research that there may well have been a Penzance - North service via the Midland as well as the Cornishman running via the GWR route before it too was moved to the Midland route.

 

I was always a bit puzzled by my trip as I thought if it was the Cornishman it would have still gone via the GWR in '62

 

I have noticed that later in the 60's and up to the 80's the "Peaks" started going deeper into WR territory beyond Bristol as I have seen 'photos of them down in Somerset and Devon.

Were some allocated to WR sheds or did they just travel further?

 

Keith

The Cornishman was a year-round service, as was the Devonian. In the 1950s and 1960s, apart from the Devonian, and Cornishman post September 1962, not much else that came down to Bristol via Barnt Green went any further south west than Bristol other than in Summer, and mostly on Saturdays then. Until c1970, trains such as Plymouth-Liverpool ran via Hereford and Shrewsbury. Things changed a lot in the 1970s.

 

Some Peaks did indeed move to the WR to replace hydraulics. IIRC Bristol Bath Road had some but their main incursion was the reallocation of Class 46s to Laira in the early 1970s.

 

Here is one on The Cornishman in 1971. Lots more Peaks on the WR in the set.

[robertcwp]

My Bachmann chocolate/cream set is currently marshalled in the Winter Cornishman formation from c1960:

 

 

BSK, SK, CK, RU, SO, BSK (Penzance); CK, BSK (Kingswear).

[Pobrien]

Here are some photographs of the Cornishman and Devonian in 1962/63. They will show some of the coaching stock actually used in the period. The Cornishman last ran to Wolverhampton in the week September 3 - 7 1962. I believe it was hauled by 7001 Sir James Milne on both north and southbound workings for the week. It did use the Midland route as far as Cheltenham.

 

http://www.flickr.co...eam/5254267762/

 

http://www.flickr.co...eam/5254267702/

 

http://www.flickr.co...eam/5253658149/

 

http://www.flickr.co...eam/5253658065/

[melmerby]

Another shot of the Cornishman in 1962:

 

http://bernieholland-honeybourneline.fotopic.net/p54360765.html

 

Keith

[TheSignalEngineer]

The Cornishman last ran to Wolverhampton in the week September 3 - 7 1962. I believe it was hauled by 7001 Sir James Milne on both north and southbound workings for the week. It did use the Midland route as far as Cheltenham.

 

That would be the Mildand route through Fishponds out of Bristol, as far as Lansdowne Junction at Cheltenham. Until re-routing to Sheffield the Cornishman then ran via Stratford-upon-Avon and Snow Hill.

[melmerby]

That would be the Mildand route through Fishponds out of Bristol, as far as Lansdowne Junction at Cheltenham. Until re-routing to Sheffield the Cornishman then ran via Stratford-upon-Avon and Snow Hill.

 

All GWR northbound trains would use the Midland from Yate to Standish junction whatever other variations they took north or south of this section.

The Bristol & Gloucester railway was opened in 1844 as Broad Gauge by an allay of the GWR & B&E and would have eventually become part of the GWR empire had not the Midland stepped in and bought it. The Midland for a time was therefore also a Company of two gauges until it converted the B&G to standard in 1854.

I presume that the GWR maintained running rights over the line until the end. Is that correct?

 

Keith

[TheSignalEngineer]

Looking on Malvern Industrial Archaeology Circle website ( www.miac.org.uk ) I found some lineside observation for 1962. These included trains running to Penzance via the Midland route

 

PLACE Abbot's Wood Junction DATE Friday 13th July 1962

 

 

21.23 42946 2B DM Coventry - Penzance Passenger - 2-6-0

21.24 D41 82A UM Bristol - York Passenger - diesel

22.02 44814 21A DM Sheffield - Penzance Passenger - 4-6-0

 

The Coventry - Penzance service would probably have been one which didn't appear in the timetable as it was common to get reliefs starting there in the Motor Trade holidays. The stock would probably have returned on the Saturday, but sometimes stayed in Cornwall for the week. From these observations it would be quite possible that you travelled from Truro to New St in the summer of 1962. Most regular trains and some dated ones were handled by Peaks, although the odd one did still have a Jubilee or Black 5 in charge.

 

 

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

And 3 tickets to show that trains still ran via the GW route in 1963/4. Those in the know used to go to Handsworth and Smethwick if the train stopped there to avoid the crowds at Snow Hill and get a better seat.

[melmerby]

From these observations it would be quite possible that you travelled from Truro to New St in the summer of 1962. Most regular trains and some dated ones were handled by Peaks, although the odd one did still have a Jubilee or Black 5 in charge.

 

 

It was probably a Saturday, Mid June, so a summer extra could be possibility.

 

Keith

[vonmarshall]

Am digging this thread up from the dead instead of starting a new one. 

 

I am modelling the 1930's period in Devon and like the idea of the less homogenous but still premium express formations. In 1935, the Cornish Riviera received the new 1935 Centenary stock, but I personally find it all a bit austere and uniform for my taste. Instead I have been mulling over the 10::35 relief, which for 1935 (and maybe 1936) was given the name "The Cornishman". 

 

There is a rather nice photo on Getty Images of the coach nameplates being made for both the Riviera and the Cornishman, and that got me thinking that the relief train in 1935 would probably have a wider variety of coach types, most if not all of which were in the double lined style with the shield rather than the roundel.

 

I am guessing that the 1929 1st line stock would have found its way onto the relief train, but am hoping that it would have possibly had the odd 70' Dreadnaught or Toplight in the mix too. What do you think? 

 

Having read through some old Backtrack Modeller issues which focused on the GWR dining cars, I am leaning towards the 1932 H39/40 combination for this train, and I have just sourced a JLTRT 70' Toplight kit so hope to use that, but I have not got further than that in planning this rake.

 

Can anybody help with the actual formation? And can anybody help with the likely diagrams for the formation. Any photos would obviously be very much appreciated too.

[Miss Prism]

I suspect Dreadnoughts and the 1929 Riviera stock were a bit too fat for the Midland.

[TheSignalEngineer]

The pre-WW2 Cornishman and the 1952 incarnation were entirely different routes. The 1952 version which was the original subject of the thread was the one which ran firstly from Wolverhampton via Snow Hill then variously from Sheffield, Lerds, etc via New Street.

[vonmarshall]

I suspect Dreadnoughts and the 1929 Riviera stock were a bit too fat for the Midland.

Sorry I should have been clearer. The 1935 "Cornishman" was the name given to the relief Cornish Riviera, leaving Paddington 5 minutes later and flowing the same route.

[Miss Prism]

The 1935 "Cornishman" was the name given to the relief Cornish Riviera, leaving Paddington 5 minutes later and flowing the same route.

 

Ah, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.

 

In which case, you can use as many fat coaches as you like...

[Miss Prism]

And for those of you who might want to wind the clock back 30 years

 

 

 

[D854_Tiger]

And 3 tickets to show that trains still ran via the GW route in 1963/4. Those in the know used to go to Handsworth and Smethwick if the train stopped there to avoid the crowds at Snow Hill and get a better seat.

 

After 1962, Snow Hill was still used for West Country trains but only the summer Saturday dated services.

 

Weekday services to both the West Country and South Wales had switched to New St by then, if you wanted to go to South Wales from Snow Hill you could still go via Kidderminster, Worcester and Hereford.

 

The last year of summer Saturday trains to the west from Snow Hill was 1966, the last summer before its decline.