Opinion on ACE Products kits?

[Zappatime]

Hi everybody, my first post on RMWeb! There seems to be a very knowledgeable and active bunch here and I've spent quite a while admiring some of the kit building skills shown in the posts, I particularly like the Class 76's as I grew up about 5 minutes away from Wath shed! Anyway, here goes - I was wondering if anybody has experience of building Ace Products brass kits in 7mm, particularly O.2. Class (ex GNR - 2-8-0 'Tango'), but any considered opinion on how you rate any of their kits would be of help as I can find little info, even on GOG's back catalogue Gazette ?

Thanks

Z

[mozzer models]

I know some one who say there good 7mm kit but i would not touch there 4mm kit as the brass is to thin & the slots & tab do not match up as its a 7mm kit made smaller

[Rob Pulham]

I asked a similar question some time ago and got mixed views. I have the Ace J52 in the to build pile and have had that recommended.

 

But other views are not so complimentary. About the time of my enquiry gent built an Ace W1 (documented in one of last years BRM magazines) and he only used some of the parts scratch building the rest. I cannot recall the exact reasons that the parts in the kit were not suitable but I think it was that some were not accurate when compared to GA's etc. However there was a follow up by Ace in a later BRM edition saying that the kit had been altered following the article's publication.

 

The consensus I gleaned was that with work they can make up into a good representation of the prototype, there is quite a bit of work involved and they are not for the beginner or faint hearted. As Brian mentions the 4mm ones seem to be shrunken 7mm kits, Graeme King (GR King) did a very in depth build on the old forum of a P1 using the Ace 02 chassis as a basis. It can be found here

 

The other impression that I gained was that some of the kits had differing origins and were therefore better than others in the range (but sadly I cannot say which are which as the only one I had recommended was the J52). I ultimately bought the Medley Models W1 and how good that is remains to be seen as I only received it at Christmas.

[10800]

I can only speak for the 4mm kits. They are hard work, but can be made into something very presentable. One of my colleagues on Eridge has done a very creditable job on this LBSCR J class 4-6-2T in P4 (I've got the other one to do ). Instructions weren't much either - of the "take all the bits and assemble into a locomotive" variety.

 

 

[Kenton]

No experience with Ace

 

the 4mm ones seem to be shrunken 7mm kits

 

but this is usually a very good warning sign. Especially if it leads to major components not fitting.

 

The etches should be reworked when reducing to a smaller scale as the calculations of thickness, etched lines, folds and their relation to the final orientation of the folded component need to be revisited. It should not be just a straight reduction of the drawings. But most importantly it depends on the quality of the originals. Tab and slot construction should also wave a big warning flag - though not be exclusive - again it depends on their use, positioning and quantity.

 

I always think that any any set of etches that "may require significant fettling or additional part scratching" or has "near useless instructions" has no valid right to call itself a kit. It is simply a scratch aid and needs to be identified as such.

 

However they do obviously make up into good representations and so probably should not be totally ignored - it all depends, as always, on whether there is an alternative and how good that alternative really is.

[cb900f]

Z,

 

There is a review of an ACE A1 kit in the Autumn 2005 gazette. I know you are intending to build an O2 but it might be of help in your decision.

 

Regards Pete

[Zappatime]

Pete, thanks, I think I read this a while ago when they first put back issues on the GOG site (a nice addition), but I'll re-read it; Ace Products' site lists the O2 as their 'latest GNR kit', mind you that doesnt necessarily mean its very recent I guess, though I read it as such.

Keith

 

Z,

 

There is a review of an ACE A1 kit in the Autumn 2005 gazette. I know you are intending to build an O2 but it might be of help in your decision.

 

Regards Pete

[Ressaldar]

Hi Z,

 

I suggest that you get onto the Gauge O Guild's website and use the Gazette archive facility or the Magazine Digest and sort under Ace Products for all of the other reviews - the L1 for instance. I started a J2 Bessborough some years ago and gave up and got somebody to finish it for me - which he did - eventually!!!

 

 

regards

 

Mike

[Zappatime]

Mike

Hi, yes I just re-read the reviews, there's nothing very recent though, I'd wondered if their current intructions/general kit standards had improved over those of some years ago; I noticed in the Autumn 2005 Gazette that Pete mentioned above, that the Ace advert had the O2 listed then, so its not a recent kit, just the last GNR loco they did!

[Pint of Adnams]

ISTR that ACE kits are not all from the same source, some being acquired over the years from other designers, such as the 'Buckjumpers' that may have been ex-Ravenscale. If I'm wrong I'm sure that someone will put the record straight. However that implies that they may be variable quality depending upon the source and age of the original, and whether any 'improvements' have since been made. Remember too that just because things are said to be 'CAD-designed' or parts 'mirror-imaged' doesn't mean that the measurements are correct or that both sides were identical.

 

Without naming names, I'm aware of some professional builders that will not touch them and of issues that the Gauge O Guild is too frightened to highlight in reviews because of the nature of the response from the manufacturer.

[mikeg]

I have not built a complete loco, but I have built a replacement chasis for a BoB that I bought and found it had a whitemetal chasis that kept distorting and giving shorts, so purchaced an ACE chasis from bill at kettering and found it very easy to build and it runs very sweetly. I know that one member of our club does not like the kits as they can be difficult to build and some early ones did not have parts that fitted very well, I've been told, but I believe most have been redrawn on cad and are now good, bill came to our club a couple of years ago and he brought some stunning locos that he had built from his kits.

 

regards

 

mike g

[pwr]

ISTR that ACE kits are not all from the same source, some being acquired over the years from other designers, such as the 'Buckjumpers' that may have been ex-Ravenscale. If I'm wrong I'm sure that someone will put the record straight. However that implies that they may be variable quality depending upon the source and age of the original, and whether any 'improvements' have since been made. Remember too that just because things are said to be 'CAD-designed' or parts 'mirror-imaged' doesn't mean that the measurements are correct or that both sides were identical.

 

Without naming names, I'm aware of some professional builders that will not touch them and of issues that the Gauge O Guild is too frightened to highlight in reviews because of the nature of the response from the manufacturer.

 

I think you are right about the origin of some of them being Ravenscale - I think the N7 is from that source and maybe the BOB.

 

I still have a Ravenscale N7 to build - pretty basic kit this but I don't know if it was reworked when ACE got hold of it.

 

Paul R

[Matthew Cousins]

Hi, I have some of the O2 etches in 7mm which I bought to make a P1 2-8-2 with some other etches that William Ascough sold me. The etches look quite good, but I have gone with a more beefy JPL models chassis instead.

I have heard that you have to know what you are up to to build these kits, but they are reasonable value.

I am a fair way through making a K2 from one of the ACE kits and for that I substituted the rolled boiler for some brass tube of the correct dimension, which whilst it made some of its own problems did produce a robust result, so you might consider that if you have a metal supplier near you.

I also have a V3 that was made by the building service he supplies and whilst it runs well it does need some fettling before painting.

William is very helpful with enquiries so if you have problems with the kit, I am sure that he would help.

Good Luck!

Matthew

[Zappatime]

Thanks to you all for your replies opinions and advice - maybe I should learn to walk better first before I can run, an ACE kit my not be best for me just yet

[Pint of Adnams]

By a curious serendipity there's a review by Charlie King of the Ace Kits D16/3 in the latest (February 2011) Guild Gazette - sums up the cons and pros very nicely.

[Zappatime]

By a curious serendipity there's a review by Charlie King of the Ace Kits D16/3 in the latest (February 2011) Guild Gazette - sums up the cons and pros very nicely.

 

Yeah, I read it yesterday, (soon as I opened the Gazette!), what's the chances of that eh? I think it concured with the posts here quite well, I thought the finished model looked quite good, but they do sound a bit challenging, though Ace Products do defend their corner quite vigorously and do make some good points in their defence.

 

Keith

[peejay]

Yeah, I read it yesterday, (soon as I opened the Gazette!), what's the chances of that eh? I think it concured with the posts here quite well, I thought the finished model looked quite good, but they do sound a bit challenging, though Ace Products do defend their corner quite vigorously and do make some good points in their defence.

 

Keith

 

Seems to me that the reviewers main gripe was that the kit did not contain parts from his favourite source, or made from his preferred material. To describe the kit as an aid to scratch building is somewhat OTT in my opinion - one could say that that applies to any kit currently on the market. Also it should be noted that his complaints didn't stop the reviewer from buying another kit from Ace Products so the kits, as supplied, can't be that bad. William Ascoughs response has actually encouraged me to order a kit from him.

[Kenton]

To describe the kit as an aid to scratch building is somewhat OTT in my opinion - one could say that that applies to any kit currently on the market.

No I don't think it can be applied to any kit.

The vast majority of true kits only require the supply of wheels, motor, gearbox and time to enable them to be built into very representable models of their prototype.

Any kit missing instructions, requiring the fabrication of some of its components rather than source from listed supply, requiring non-typical user tools (lathes ect) and the cutting/forming of items that could have been etched are certainly only scratch aids.

 

From what I have seen of these kits (only a look into a box) they are well deserving of the designation of "kit"

 

Of course there is a whole range of levels of "kit" from those which simply don't go together as instructed, to those that are simply a joy to build.

[peejay]

No I don't think it can be applied to any kit.

 

Kenton

 

I think you missed the irony of my comment

 

The vast majority of true kits only require the supply of wheels, motor, gearbox and time to enable them to be built into very representable models of their prototype.

Any kit missing instructions, requiring the fabrication of some of its components rather than source from listed supply, requiring non-typical user tools (lathes ect) and the cutting/forming of items that could have been etched are certainly only scratch aids.

 

From what I have seen of these kits (only a look into a box) they are well deserving of the designation of "kit"

 

Of course there is a whole range of levels of "kit" from those which simply don't go together as instructed, to those that are simply a joy to build.

 

Otherwise I agree entirely.

 

And yes, my order for an Ace Products kit is in the post B)

Edited February 6, 2011 by peejay

[Kenton]

I think you missed the irony of my comment

Something, like sarcasm, I find very difficult portray/understand in print.

[Ian Allen]

I'm contemplating the ACE Kits LSWR H16 4-6-2T, but was also put off by comments from fellow modellers about their quality. However, surely they cannot be as bad as the old MegaKits ? I still have one for their S15 and it is truly dire. To even state it complies to the GOG standards was so wide of the mark it missed the barn, let alone the door !! I will most likely save up for the Gladiator S15 now instead.

[peejay]

I'm contemplating the ACE Kits LSWR H16 4-6-2T, but was also put off by comments from fellow modellers about their quality. However, surely they cannot be as bad as the old MegaKits ? I still have one for their S15 and it is truly dire. To even state it complies to the GOG standards was so wide of the mark it missed the barn, let alone the door !! I will most likely save up for the Gladiator S15 now instead.

 

Having proudly announced in a post above that I was buying an ACE kit, on arrival I found that the brass etches are of McGowan Models origin. That may not necessarily be a bad thing - I have no experience of McGowan - but it does highlight that one may not be buying what one expects. Even 'high-end' kits are not without their problems if what I have read elsewhere, both in the past and currently, is anything to go by.

[souwest]

Hi,

 

I think what the issue is, is that there are a lot of low price kits available, for various manufacturers of varying degrees of quality, and with varying levels of detail. There are of course a lot of kits at a mid price range, and many which are expensive.

 

The average new or reasonably new modeller, or modeller on a tight budget would prefer not to spend money on a kit which they feel they could not do justice to. On the other hand they do not want to buy a cheap model which is not accurate or needs a lot of knowledge to put right errors of size etc.

 

I realise there are many good, competent modellers who could easily make a poor kit look superb. There are a lot of modellers who given the best kit (not necessarily the dearest) may not do justice to it.

 

Any kit review is subjective, but at least given an opinion. The Guild's magazine carried out some very good comparison "how we built.." on Tower Class 20, Warship and 8F. Sadly two of these are not available any more. Whitemetal in any case is not an ideal substance for a large scale loco. It would be good to have similar features with two or three modellers giving their opinions of a particular kit. I don't think some of the Guild Worthies who may not want to offend any manufacturer could object to this, if any critisism was positive.

 

Whatever you do, enjoy doing it.

 

Stew

[Ian Allen]

I have been in touch with WIlliam Ascough as he intends to be at Guildex at Telford and he says it isn't a problem for me to examine the H16 kit before I decide to purchase or not. This is supposed to be from new artwork, and he is looking at introducing a G16 as well in the future. These could be updates of the Shedmaster kits which go together well.

[Amat Victoria Curam]

Hi, being new to the forums, i am just cruising around having a look, when i came across this one on Ace Kits. Having built one of the Ace A1 kits which has subsequently won a cup at the local model club, i feel able to offer at least one or two comments. Firstly, the kits are not for the raw beginner as i found out, having built just a couple of 'starter' kits prior to this one, but William Ascough was very supportive and replied promptly to phone calls and letters. i also had the support of a fellow club member who showed me various 'tricks of the trade' to move the project along. I would agree with a previous comment that any kit is really the basis for scratch building - you just dont have to etch/cut all the pieces yourself, thereby saving time and expense. However what tolerances are available in real life are invariably reduced to next to nothing in the model and allowances have to be made, if not then pieces that should fit dont. I would also agree that tab and slot whilst it sounds ideal, invariably mis-align, but can at least show where the pieces are suposed to be in relation to each other. I have made several kits from different manufacturers and all have one thing in common, they all need thought putting into their construction and if you are lucky a minimum amount of metal/plastic bashing to get an acceptable result. The only way to make an authentic looking model is to have pictures of the actual engine to hand whilst making it and if the kit doesnt have a certain widget then track it down from one of the many parts manufacturer that abound.In conclusion i would say that the Ace kits, in my experience, are no worse or no better than many others and you get what you pay for, which is a kit that with a little fore thought and care builds into a perfectly acceptable model. Would i buy another kit from Ace - most certainly!!