43078shildoncountydurham Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 hi all, do you guys know how to add more stay-alive units to one decoder, is it just as easy as connecting the wires together? Sorry for the hi-jack.. Thanks as always for the help from the great people of rmweb Craig Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Not done it yet, but that's how I read it. Richard says wire in parallel, so thats how I'd do it. Not done it yet, but that's how I read it. Richard says wire in parallel, so thats how I'd do it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Ok, I've had a bit of time to do some tweaking again. Yes, making the decoders "DCC only" does remove the jerkiness, so that's one improvement., but I'm after advice with getting better slow speed control. My son's Hornby 060 models (Thomas, Devious Diesel, Bert and Iron Arry etc) are awkward runners. Based on the old Hornby 08, they are too fast and need taming. I've set cv2 to 20, and then down to 10, and CV 5 to 150, CV6 to 80, but I can't seem to get them to move on the first speed step. All altering CV2 seems to do is alter the speed at which the wheels turn when the model decides to move. Whatever CV2 is set to, the loco wont move until we're on speed step 10 (of 128). Any ideas ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Those models have a motor and gearing with more in common with Scalextric cars than the more refined drives on the scale models. You might never get them to run much slower without attempting to redo the drive. You should still be able to get them started on speed step 0 1 though even if it is a bit quick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BromsMods Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 Try CV2=0, CV5=80, CV6=60 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Ok, I've had a bit of time to do some tweaking again. Yes, making the decoders "DCC only" does remove the jerkiness, so that's one improvement., but I'm after advice with getting better slow speed control. My son's Hornby 060 models (Thomas, Devious Diesel, Bert and Iron Arry etc) are awkward runners. Based on the old Hornby 08, they are too fast and need taming. I've set cv2 to 20, and then down to 10, and CV 5 to 150, CV6 to 80, but I can't seem to get them to move on the first speed step. All altering CV2 seems to do is alter the speed at which the wheels turn when the model decides to move. Whatever CV2 is set to, the loco wont move until we're on speed step 10 (of 128). Any ideas ? Dave, If you read my earlier post in this thread, post number 112, you will see I go along with what you are experiencing.....I had to set CV2 to 18 before I got the loco to move on the first speed step......BUT, you have to wait about 20 secs once you have pressed speed step 1, before the loco moves......quite strange, but interesting performance. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Johnson Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 *** Hi all The general comment about those low-end H models is pretty correct... they ars skittish and tend to want to be hard to control. Apart from the obvious thing of making sure you add weight and tweak the pickups (they are to light too) its worth experimenting by adding low resistances in series with the motor circuit - anywhere between say 20 and 100 ohms depending on the loco. This will stop it leaping awaay at lower settings and may allow decoder settings clser to the norm. Regards Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Yes, I'm aware that the models aren't the best, but these dcc concepts chips have improved the situation re stalling. However, I bought 15 decoders, but only have 13 installed. Why ? Two went up with puffs of smoke when first run. I've hard wired many chips, and was certain that I didn't short anything with these.I've only known problems with 2 other chips - both Hornby 8249s - where the cause of failure was clear. One had lost its insulating sleeve and shorted in the class 14, the other lost its wires at the solder points on the chip. The 8249s also seem at home with the cheaper mechanism. I got better slow speed control and a quieter motor with them, but can't tame top speed for example. I've also tried The trainsave and Bachmann chips and none of these are as good - motor control wise - as 8249s in these models. Of the two Bachmann percys that I have, the 8249 fitted one is still the smoother runner despite identical performance on dc. The big advantage of these dcc concepts chips. Is the stay alive and it does reduce the stalling over point work, so is a success there. However, I'm not sure about quality control. To suddenly lose two chips seems more than unfortunate. At least I've got two spare stay alives to add to previous installations, to see if that improves running, but I'd rather buy extra stay alives than get them.by watching decoders go up in smoke. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Johnson Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 *** None of us are immune from errors - I have done and continure to do many, many installations and familiarity and the odd careless moment does happen to me too. I can't attest to the installs you did but I can do so for our decoders. The only model that ever had any meaningful failure rate at all was the initial small batch of D series and even then, the failures were not overly frequent. I am very cognisant of failures and the importance of this range introduction however, so when I saw that some failures had happenned I immediately withdrew and took back the entire batch for 100% re-testing before allowing further sales... delaying our overall Decoder release by several weeks because of it. I don't believe its possible to be more quality conscious than that. We also made an open offer to dealers during the release period to give the benefit of the doubt and accept ANY install related failures without question. Those few cases (less than 20 overall, with 2 of 4 models with zero failures so far) where we have needed to do a replacement it has always been processed immediately and without question as even when we run out of stock (as we did of 3 of 4 models last month) we hold back small qtys for such purposes. Just as I am certain that our QC is excellent on decoders, there will also without doubt still be the odd one that fails for some unidentifiable reason... that is the nature of production electonics combined with the variables of consumer installation... But I see no reason at all for any negative thoughts on that basis, particularly as our total failure rate on a five figure sales qty has been far less than the qty we replace monthly for another "respected" brand we sell only in the very low hundreds. Regards Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 That may be true, but all the details I've read show that you stop short of replacing decoders if you suspect a short. There are very clear words that your warranty isn't foolproof.. On the basis of that, the failed decoders were binned as it would be a waste of time all round. The installations that I did were quite straightforward, in that you could easily separate the four relevant wires, and keep them well away from each other. No split chassis complications. The decoders smoked and died when the installation was tested on the track, before bodies were refitted, and with the wiring and decoder visible. Whilst most of my stock is dcc ready, I've now done about 25 hard wires installs, am reasonably proficient with a soldering iron and know how shorts are caused and prevented. The fried chips were removed and resoldered in exactly the same manner yet replacements worked fine. I know all chips can't be tested, but the failure rate I've encountered is disappointing. So, would I still buy them ? Perhaps oddly, yes. They're a good price for the spec, but with my rate of attrition, the cost has increased by about :£3 per decoder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Johnson Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 *** fair enough - but perhaps you should have asked your dealer - I would have as thats usually the first port of call. I do understand your reason but please - do ask always if you feel any product from anyone hasn't been fair to you - a polite question usually gets great results. In this case, given my wider approach because of the fact that the range was just being released, they or we would certainly have replaced them. Given that you didn't for what you saw as the "right reason", I am quite happy for you to email me direct with your address and I will gladly sort it for you.... ------------------------- Warranties should be positive marketing support, not a barrier and not an open ended thing - they like the product should have standards and expectations. The reason the warranty is like it is is simple: In general if a decoder passes tests it will be OK in the field, and every decoder sees power at least once before its packed. Of course nothing is truly perfect and its always possible to have component or processor failure but these are usually internal low current failures and don't generate high heat - there are only a couple of items that can do that on the PCB and it takes high power to do it so its rare unless there is a short from input side to output or a direct rectifier short.... So - if there is a dead decoder or bad behaviour with no mark on the HS, we replace without question... but we built in and reserve the right to discuss it if its a big black hole :-) - for good reasons. Examples: I had one classic example recently where a decoder was installed and being test run by a user - all was fine until the still - exposed stay-alive wires (it wasn't added yet) shorted on a roll of solder left by the track as the train passed it - this directly shorted the rectifier and resulted in smoke. Not our fault but an honest customer gained a free replacement because he was honest. If he had tried to bluff it he wouldn't have. A second was a Hornby diesel with the faulty board (I think it was the first run class 60??). Perversely if he'd not done it right and installed the 8 pin backwards all would have been OK except the lights - but the customer put two decoders in it the right way round and the result was two catastrophic failures - Not the fault of our decoder, not the fault of the installer either - but of the locomotive itself. Hornby replaced the PCB without question as it was a factory error - but guess who was stuck with the decoder replacements - not because we were liable, but because we felt it unfar that the customer should wear a fault he didn't cause. So our warranty is designed to limit "replacements without question" where a catastrophic event happens. We still often do it but we have the choice - and we gain the ability to give good advice at the same time... the Hornby loco is a classic example of that - the owner didn't know of the H problem but we did - so we were able to advise him about approaching Hornby and also explain to him why it happened. I think thats good customer service compared to a "no questions warranty" where costs are open ended and customer wisdom never grows. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I don't think any Class 60s needed replacement boards but the first Class 50s did. I understand you having a slightly more 'robust' warranty as the Lenz one was being abused by people relying on it and being lax in checking installs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
windmills Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 My Hornby class 60 (referred to above) definitely had a factory faulty PCB (the original Hornby R8249 chip would only function if fitted incorrectly, ie back to front). When I fitted the new DCC Concepts decoders correctly according to the instructions, they fried! Advised by Richard, I contacted Hornby who asked me to send the loco back to them (be aware that the loco was at least 18-20 months old, not a new model under warranty). Within days the loco was returned to me with a new PCB and a new decoder fitted...no charge and the special delivery £7 refunded into the bargain! Richard in the meantime had sent me two free replacement decoders (with stay alive....the originals were not stay alive) even though he suspected the problem was Hornby. In all, I am very impressed both with Richard's attention to customer needs when the customer has a problem and his attention to quality control and production design and manufacture......the DCC Concepts decoders now in my three Class 60s are performing up to and beyond expectations. Also impressed by Hornby's excellent customer service. Well done all round! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crantock Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 The Smokey Joe Challenge: 2metres in 3 minutes 20 seconds. Straight run but 3 Electrofrogged points crossed. DCC Concepts with one Stay Alive Not bad. In fact, quite comical as it is a bit juddery (as you would expect given the primative motor). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 *** fair enough - but perhaps you should have asked your dealer - I would have as thats usually the first port of call. I do understand your reason but please - do ask always if you feel any product from anyone hasn't been fair to you - a polite question usually gets great results. In this case, given my wider approach because of the fact that the range was just being released, they or we would certainly have replaced them. Given that you didn't for what you saw as the "right reason", I am quite happy for you to email me direct with your address and I will gladly sort it for you.... Richard Richard, that is very kind of you and a PM is on its way. The Smokey Joe Challenge: 2metres in 3 minutes 20 seconds. Straight run but 3 Electrofrogged points crossed. DCC Concepts with one Stay Alive Not bad. In fact, quite comical as it is a bit juddery (as you would expect given the primative motor). Excellent stuff. Can you confirm whether this was a straight from the box decoder or were the CV settings tweaked ? With more time to use these decoders in my son's Thomas stuff, I have to say I'm very impressed with them. They've virtually eliminated stalling over setrack (insulfrog) points, which was my main reason for buying them. Physics do come into it, and Percy (an 0-4-0) will sometimes stall, but the next time my soldering iron comes out, I will go overboard and fit a couple more stay alives to him, and with bore you rigid update when I get round to it. After all, to prove a point you sometimes have to go to extremes !I'll let you know how we get on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crantock Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Richard, that is very kind of you and a PM is on its way. Excellent stuff. Can you confirm whether this was a straight from the box decoder or were the CV settings tweaked ? With more time to use these decoders in my son's Thomas stuff, I have to say I'm very impressed with them. They've virtually eliminated stalling over setrack (insulfrog) points, which was my main reason for buying them. Physics do come into it, and Percy (an 0-4-0) will sometimes stall, but the next time my soldering iron comes out, I will go overboard and fit a couple more stay alives to him, and with bore you rigid update when I get round to it. After all, to prove a point you sometimes have to go to extremes !I'll let you know how we get on. No I tweaked them. Interestingly, I got it wrong and mis input Bromsgrove Models suggestions above. I input CV2= 0, CV5 (Midpoint)=80 and CV6 (Max voltage) = 60. The last 2 are transposed. Analog is still on. I actually bought a brand new Smokey Joe unboxed at Midland Railex for £15 for the fun. At the same time I got a Jinty for £20. In both cases the S2SAPs fit very nicely and run fine (The Jinty is running without the capacitor which I will keep back). They are much smaller than other chips in a similar price range. That said, and i don't think anyone will be surprised by this, the biggest improvement to my running has been switching to electrofrogs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolmy Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I have now fitted one of these chips (with stay alive) into a Mainline Warship. It previously had a Hornby chip. The difference is very noticeable. A much improved loco in my fleet now! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted February 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 5, 2012 I've finally found a home for my D4SAX, so into the Heljan Class 28 it went. The lights worked, but trying to move the loco caused the system to trip. I put a Bachmann chip into it, and everything's fine. I think I've got myself a duff DCC Concepts chip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted February 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 5, 2012 Its my birthday tomorrow, so I've had the official one today, and on opening the main pressy from Jen & Tim, I was delighted to see a Bachmann Cravens Class 105 Power Twin with Preston on one end and Colne on the other. So, the temptation to put some chips in was enormous. So, having got the bodies off, in went the D4SAX, with exactly the same results - moved reverse okay, but forwards created a 'short', so definitely a duff chip. The DCC Concepts S4SAX chip behaves itself impeccably, so I guess I've been unlucky with the D4SAX. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinw62 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Has anyone bought and used one of the "Direct Plug" versions of the decoders? Which way are the pins orientated on the underside of the chip? Just wondering how it will sit on the 8 pin socket in the loco. I've tried the Lenz Silver Direct in the past and found a couple of loco's where it is hard to fit the chip becasue of restricted space due to the way it sits on the 8 pin socket. I've looked on the DCC Concepts website but can't find a photo of the chip showing the pins, if anyone can upload a photo that would be good. ColinW Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 For the direct plug have a look on the Bromsgrove website or email/PM John at Bromsgrove as he is one of the main distributors of these items. IIRC see p1 on this topic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Hi Colin If you haven't found a picture of the Direct Plug DCC Concepts decoder (DP4SAP) here's one fitted to a Model Rail Sentinel. Hope this helps. Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
suerose Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Hi I have been gtrying to find out the actual sizes of the DCC concepts stay alive decoders, I have a S2SAP, but even that is too large for my K's kit built Terrier. Has anybody the sizes or can suggest a suitable stay alive as it really needs one of these type of decoders. Most of the body space is taken up with the motor. Any help most appreciated. Regards, Sue Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 How much are you into DIY electronics, and sourcing components ? Examples of the what I think is the state of art in small stay alives are on the following German website (locos are finescale N). I'm waiting for the parts to put them into my class 02 in 2mm scale. http://www.1001-digital.de/pages/1001-digital/startseite.php Slightly less extreme options are possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy1626 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Yesterday I fitted three DCC Concepts S4SAP with stay alive. The first one went into a Hornby 4p tank and although the loco ran well it seemed to have no stay alive capacity. I then fitted the second chip to a Bachmann 4p tank as soon as it was put on the track it went up in smoke. We then removed the chip and replaced the blanking plug and ran it on DC, it worked perfectly so assuming from the above conversations that sometimes rogue chips escape QC we fitted another S4SAP. The loco ran perfectly without the body on so we replaced the body and put it on the track. The chip promptly went up in smoke as soon as it was placed on the track. At this point we started some serious investigation under magnification to see where the fault was. The only thing we came up with was NOT the chip but the harness. It would appear that the wiring to the 8 pin plug has left bare wires above the pins. When the wiring was compressed by the loco body being fitted it and taped in place I think it must have shorted out two of the pins. The reason for this diatribe is just to warn others that you need to check the harnesses before you blame the chip. However not being an electronics expert it may be just our guess as the two chips are completely fried. I am reluctant to try the last two in the pack in case the same thing happens again. We have successfully fitted about 30 chips so far including split chassis locos so we do not consider ourselves beginners. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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