BROADTRAIN1979 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Hi all, just recently i recieved my sound chipped 'n' gauge emu from olivias, The decoder is a loksound micro, its mounted in a farish suburban mk1 coach and powered by a 108 chassis. Problem is ,it runs erattic. I have to keep pushing it sometimes to move, it only travels one way stopping and starting and grudgingly moving the opposite way. I have already been to olivias to let them sort the problem out. They re-blew it cleaned the wheels of the 108 chassis.I got it home but, its still doing the same thing. Im using the powercab. Now all my other chipped diesels run superbly. No problems at all. I will be sending the emu back to olivias today but, any suggestions would be welcome Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mr.S.corn78 Posted January 14, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2011 Hi, I would check the pick ups and by that I mean take the bottom off the bogie and tease them out then carfully slide the wheels back in making sure that the pick ups are behind the wheels. I have fixed a few that have had the pick ups flat against the block in the boige and had one that didn't have any of the pick ups touching the wheels. Also check the bits that run up the side of the bogie tower to make sure they are touching the pads to pass the powe to the motor Hopefully that should cure the problem Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Mc Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Hi Thats no good, OK assuming it is not the pick ups you need to add extra weight to the loco. When I add sound to any n gauge loco I have a simple rule. It must weight more than the original or else you are asking for trouble. I also would have mounted the decoder in the motorized car but thats just my opinion. Try extra weight using lead. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted January 14, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2011 Hi all, just recently i recieved my sound chipped 'n' gauge emu from olivias, The decoder is a loksound micro, its mounted in a farish suburban mk1 coach and powered by a 108 chassis. Problem is ,it runs erattic. I have to keep pushing it sometimes to move, it only travels one way stopping and starting and grudgingly moving the opposite way. I have already been to olivias to let them sort the problem out. They re-blew it cleaned the wheels of the 108 chassis.I got it home but, its still doing the same thing. Im using the powercab. Now all my other chipped diesels run superbly. No problems at all. I will be sending the emu back to olivias today but, any suggestions would be welcome Have you tried running it on another layout or with another controller? Eg if it runs OK at Olivia's then it may be a problem with your track or controller. Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 838rapid Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Try changing cv124 to a value of 6. That should go towards curing the stop start nature of it running. It causes the chip to remember what it was doing before the slight blip in power collection. Showed this to the prop of Olivias a few years ago on a sound fitted 08. But with me not being the person who has a knowledge of dcc he turned his nose at my suggestion. Needless it works. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROADTRAIN1979 Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Have you tried running it on another layout or with another controller? Eg if it runs OK at Olivia's then it may be a problem with your track or controller. Cheers, Mike Hi redeath olivias never had any track to run on as they never ever normally do 'n' gauge as they are strictly 00 and my track is spotless also my chipped farish diesels run specifically superb so i dont think the track is the problem?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROADTRAIN1979 Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Try changing cv124 to a value of 6. That should go towards curing the stop start nature of it running. It causes the chip to remember what it was doing before the slight blip in power collection. Showed this to the prop of Olivias a few years ago on a sound fitted 08. But with me not being the person who has a knowledge of dcc he turned his nose at my suggestion. Needless it works. hi ,I called olivias today explained to neil the situation and he wasnt very helpful, just said basically, he did it as a favor.Well sorry neil it cost me £180.00 and it would cost him more in headaches to fix, as he quoted he doesnt know much about 'n' gauge . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROADTRAIN1979 Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Hi Thats no good, OK assuming it is not the pick ups you need to add extra weight to the loco. When I add sound to any n gauge loco I have a simple rule. It must weight more than the original or else you are asking for trouble. I also would have mounted the decoder in the motorized car but thats just my opinion. Try extra weight using lead. Martin Hi martin, what sort of weight would help? as it doesnt run very good backwards?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROADTRAIN1979 Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Hi, I would check the pick ups and by that I mean take the bottom off the bogie and tease them out then carfully slide the wheels back in making sure that the pick ups are behind the wheels. I have fixed a few that have had the pick ups flat against the block in the boige and had one that didn't have any of the pick ups touching the wheels. Also check the bits that run up the side of the bogie tower to make sure they are touching the pads to pass the powe to the motor Hopefully that should cure the problem Hi Im not very good, at taking locos apart. Could you suggest someone please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROADTRAIN1979 Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 The strange thing, is the micro lok sound decoder is fine but, as it also runs the train it isnt that serious, if i can get it to run smoothly?? then great. as i wont send it back to olivias as i dont think he can be bothered Anyway i do like the sound .If its a weight or pickup problem, could i not send it to someone to cure it?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
porkie Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 That does sound very odd indeed, I have a lok sound micro in a farish class 37 and have had no trouble at all with weight or pick ups.. You could always call howes or digitrains as they are both top notch dcc shops and have all ways givern me good adivse Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Did it work before it was chipped ? Does it work with only one bogie on the track and either of them ? Basically with a fault like that (and I've had a couple of 150's with similar problems) you have to work back along the system bit by bit For recalcitrant chassis of that design I find the best approach is Take the bogies off Check they turn smoothly by hand both ways - If not check the gears. The modern ones don't seem to split often but hair or ballast or other junk could be jamming one Wash out the megaton of grease Farish seem to put in many of them Remove the bogie outers Clean the wheels especially the back Check the pickups are pressing firmly enough on the wheels that if you push them either way they are still in contact - If not remove wheels again bend pickups and refit Add a spot of very light oil (eg Daywat) Clean the top of the bogies where the two metal rods rise up (they take power to the main chassis). If need be given them a gentle polish (these seem to be the biggest problem area on the Farish chassis) Repeat with other bogie Stick them back in Hopefully it'll then run reliably with one bogie on track and thus properly with both If not then you need to take the body/chassis apart and check if the power is getting to the two strips that carry it from the unpowered bogie to the board. There are two prongs that conduct this from the chassis strips to the circuit board. If these are not touching it will only pick up power from one bogie. The weight suggestion is also good - the Farish design doesn't use springs between the bogie and chassis, which means it relies upon the small top of bogie prongs pushing up against the springiness of the strips. That requires there is sufficient weight above it. It's very noticeable on the two car 108s and 150s that the light flicker much more in the non powered car. If you are not familiar with it and Olivia's made a mess of it for £180 I know who I'd send the bill too 8) There are several folks who do strip down and repair of these models professionally. Before I did it myself I used BR Lines for Farish stuff. Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROADTRAIN1979 Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 If it worked well before the chip application, and all your other DCC stuff works well then there is likely to be a problem with the installation. The agency/shop that fitted the chip, (regardless of who it is), should resolve the problem and your redress is with them. You need to: Speak to your local trading standards office for guidance describing the problem, they are the experts, not us 'blokes in the pub/on internet' The following should be considered as 'the bloke in the pub/on internet', legal advice. A/ Decide if you want the original shop to handle the item again, and if not, what you intend to do about it. If you want to go the consumer protection route then you will have to leave it as is until your issue is resolved, taking it apart yourself or by someone else means that the original chip installation will be altered, so you won't be able to prove faulty product or installation if either of those are the faults. Speak to your local trading standards office for guidance, they are the legal experts, not us 'blokes in the pub'. B/ If you decide to do it yourself or get another agency to do the work, then you will lose the chance to use most consumer protection rights you may have, and will obviously have to pay a further installation/mending charge. Personally I'd go back to the original fitter (whomever it is) and request it's resloved to work properly, or returned to original state, as the modification work they have done is unsatisfactory, (i.e. it doesn't work properly), and seek a refund. I've used digitrains at Lincoln for OO, and know they do work on N gauge items. If I wanted a shop to do any work I'd use them. N.B. Other DCC specialists are available. Hi Thanks for the advice but the chip works fine but its getting the 108 chassis to run smoothly Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROADTRAIN1979 Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 There is an option C too... ...I am new to not only DCC but Model Railways full stop. I started last year September 2010 and the learning curve has been huge. So I am open to correction here If I have things the wrong way around! I have used Neil and his staff at Olivias with no problems at all. All the people in my club that have used them, other than to gripe & flame about his costs, have nothing negative to say about the service they provide. I used Olivia's services to hard wire Decoders firstly into a Ringfiled and then a Can motor 'non DCC analogue' driven loco. I did this so I had a template to work from. I also noted the hardware he uses to programme his Decoders and I have sourced a supplier. When I am ready for sound I will pay for him to fit one sound decoder, with lights etc., and I will then fit my own after that. Nowt wrong with copying someone elses work is there? Best way to learn in my books. So many companies treat Decoders, programming and installing them like is is some secretive dark art that only by personal invite will ye get to know the secrets... HERE IS OPTION C: Pha! I said PHA! Basically a decoder is a motherboard. You install it. You then configure the CV settings, upload the software (soundfiles) and then set the various function commands that will operate those files and lights etc., when you select them. Well, thta is how I do it and it works for me with the basic CV settings. You will find everything hardware wise Olivia's use here including many of the generic *.wav files they install too: http://www.esu.eu/en/products/ http://www.esu.eu/en/downloads/ Why pay someone to do something when with a bit of hard work on your part, some studying and asking people on the internet (there are actually some very knowledgeable people on the ineternet) you too can do it and save yourself an absolute packet in the process. Lokprogrammer is circa £130, the Decoder tester is circa £37 and here http://www.esu.eu/en/downloads/sounds/ is a whole host of generic *.wav files for you to use. Sound decoders are circa £110. so for around the initial outlay of around £270, and you paid £180 to have one loco done, you could have set yourself up to do your own installs. I have been in the shop when Neil has said that Olivia's as a company do go out and make their own recordings as well as using library 'generic' ones. I'm currently learning about CV's etc and use a Sprog II. Once I have mastered the basics, I will be going to dabble with 'sound side' of things to have a go at that too. If you are looking for every CV there is, you will find them here along with a description telling you what each one does and how to configure them: http://www.nmra.org/...2007%20July.pdf If I can learn to use and get my head around this technology as an adult with learning difficulties and Aspergers syndrome, then anyone can. phew to complicated for me thanks anyway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Mc Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Hi Etched Pixels has given you some very good advice there. I went back through some photos last night on n gauge emus I added sound to and forgot to mention this. See photo I added extra pick ups to all the non powered coaches so I can in some cases you gain an extra 12 pick ups. Same with any of the steam locos I do I add extra pick ups. This is so important. Weight I add it everywhere and anywhere I can get it in. If it is going to be seen I try to blend it in by painting it. You can see where the lead has being added but it blends in fairly well with a splash of paint. The bent lead is going up in the roof of a class 24. Class 57 one area to put some weight as I said anywhere and everywhere. Another way of saving space so I can add more weight is to unsolder all but the pick ups and motor connections and add SMD resistors soldered directly onto the lok with super fine wire feeding out. As all the functions are the same colour it can be a bit difficult so colour coding it really helps. As to the price you paid when I saw it on an earlier post I thought wow that is very cheap. To do a good install on a n gauge loco can take up to 10 hours and some I have done 20 + hours. I think thats the main reason none of the retailers offer it, too much time and you cannot charge for it. You have a good chip here maybe have a go yourself and if it does not work out buy another emu and try again. Best of luck. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROADTRAIN1979 Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 Thanks marty, maybe having extra pickups would help but, its something i have never done. I will have to pay someone to do it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted January 15, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 15, 2011 a bit of advice from bryan at howes: The problem may be an inertia thing , I had something similar with an N gauge 33 someone had fitted which did the same, I changed CVs 54 and 55 to values 18 and 40 respectively, it then ran ok as there was less inertia to overcome. A most important point to mention, as per other advice on the thread, if you intend the unit it to be returned to whence it came, dont do anything physical to it. Make a note what values the 2 cvs are currently , they will probably be 32 and 24 which are the ESU defaults and may not been altered, by reprogramming them to the values I have suggested you will not invalidate any work that has been done, it is the same as if you were changing the address on the decoder or the CV63 sound level, so there is no risk and everything to gain. I dont promise these two CV changes will work but certainly give it a try, nothing ventured..... . These CV changes can also be a cure for certain Hornby OO locos with motors that have have no flywheel , it cures that sudden lurching movement that sometimes occurs just as the loco stops or is about to start Oh and by the way, I quite agree, fitting decoders is not a Black art as some may have you believe, but there are a huge number of people who do not feel capable of undertaking a fit or are fearful they will damage their model in trying, so they entrust dealers or friends to do it for them, yes at a cost, but at least they get their loco back RTR, or should do if they are reputable or recommended fitters. For those with the interest and who are willing to have a go then it is very rewarding, and in some cases they may fit theirs differently, to their own satisfaction and possibly even better than had someone else done it for them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Thanks marty, maybe having extra pickups would help but, its something i have never done. I will have to pay someone to do it I would suggest testing it on DC - one thing I asked that is really important - is "Did it work before" - if it didn't then you could have all sorts of problems including a dud model ! If its reliable on DC and not on DCC then you've learned something rather important to help diagnose the problem. Marty: The 108 chassis is an easy fit for a six pin sound deocder, bit more time for an eight as you need to rewire the plug. The needed sound mountings for the Lok sound 13mm speaker are provided with the model. It's basically - *test on dc* - attach decoder to 13mm speaker - fit 13mm speaker into mount provided by Bachmann and fit into place - plug decoder into socket - *test on dcc* - attach decoder out of sight (stick to coach roof or trim floor moulding if hiding it low down and fitting lights) - refit body Ditto the 150, although on the 150 there is a second speaker mount and you can run wires and fit the other one in the other coach, which takes a spot longer. Takes about half an hour to do - half of which is testing it and getting the ... body off It does vary by Loco - you can do a Lima loco in 10 minutes, but its hardly worth it, while it took me about a days work each to do a Poole Farish 31 and to do a 25. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROADTRAIN1979 Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 BT, I've been taking things to bits since I could hold a screwdriver. From hoovers, clocks, TV's, record players, motorbikes, cars, lawnmowers, chainsaws, computers to name a few - you name it, I have been in there. Just part of my condition - I have to know how things work and how to fix them. This is why I am a field service engineer and I will take any contract even if I have not worked with the equipment before - just a case of learning the technology I am going to be working with. Our hobby has been treated the same way. I went hands on straight away. I encourage you to go dig out an old loco or buy one off EBay. Learn how they go together etc, Once you have handled a few of them, you will see they are all pretty generic in construction. Some being easier to get in to and work on than others. With this older loco you can then practice building new and additional pickups etc., and using an old decoder, hard wire it in. Then look at buying a decoder reader/programmer. There are enough people on this and other forums that will help you to help yourself. The newer loco's are a doddle to work on as they have been designed with the home user in mind that will be opening them to fit decoders themselves etc. Many too come with a service sheet that show you the locations of screws/brackets and tell you how to remove loco/tender bodies without damaging them as well as the all important lubrication points. Join your local club too. As here you will find an absolute wealth that is priceless and bottomless pit of years of knowledge and information there. The fact you are using Olivia's says to me you could be local to the area too? There are several clubs you could join. Rails of Sheffield have a comprehensive knowledge list of such and it was through them that I ended up in the very friendly club I belong to. This club I belong to, I can take a loco/carriage/goods wagon etc., with a running problem to club night and have it fixed (parts not being required of course!) for when I go home and all for the cost of friendship. Only downside is there are very few DCC converted members but my enthusiasm is changing things! My club membership is worth every single penny of the fee plus I have a huge layout to use too! If you don't at least try, you aren’t going to learn and that way you will always be paying another to do things for you. If it is a Hornby 90%+ of their service sheets can be found here: http://www.modeltrains.net.au/Hornby/item_all_by_cat.asp It can take a while to load and goes way back in to the archives of the early 70's! Search and select the loco you want. Then select the relevant service sheet. Dave. Hmmm no, i live in essex near london ,so im nowhere near sheffield?. I only drove down to show neil what was happening, As i stated ,he reblew the lok sound micro, cleaned the wheels but, was unable to test it, as he never had any 'n' gauge track but, the tester showed no problems. So got it home ,before you say its my track, No!! all my farish chippied diesels run A+ So no probs there . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROADTRAIN1979 Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 I would suggest testing it on DC - one thing I asked that is really important - is "Did it work before" - if it didn't then you could have all sorts of problems including a dud model ! If its reliable on DC and not on DCC then you've learned something rather important to help diagnose the problem. Marty: The 108 chassis is an easy fit for a six pin sound deocder, bit more time for an eight as you need to rewire the plug. The needed sound mountings for the Lok sound 13mm speaker are provided with the model. It's basically - *test on dc* - attach decoder to 13mm speaker - fit 13mm speaker into mount provided by Bachmann and fit into place - plug decoder into socket - *test on dcc* - attach decoder out of sight (stick to coach roof or trim floor moulding if hiding it low down and fitting lights) - refit body Ditto the 150, although on the 150 there is a second speaker mount and you can run wires and fit the other one in the other coach, which takes a spot longer. Takes about half an hour to do - half of which is testing it and getting the ... body off It does vary by Loco - you can do a Lima loco in 10 minutes, but its hardly worth it, while it took me about a days work each to do a Poole Farish 31 and to do a 25. Hi Alan i have pm'd you. I did test it, before it was dcc, on dc and it ran fine. It also has twin speakers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 In which case the suggestions for reprogramming the CV's that control back EMF are worth a shot, and also putting the DC plug back in and re-checking on DC to make sure it's not been messed up in the conversion somewhere. If it still works reliably on DC you are in a good position to nail it down as there are not many causes (dodgy socket, back EMF settings etc) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Mc Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Hi Marty: The 108 chassis is an easy fit for a six pin sound deocder, bit more time for an eight as you need to rewire the plug. The needed sound mountings for the Lok sound 13mm speaker are provided with the model. It's basically - *test on dc* - attach decoder to 13mm speaker - fit 13mm speaker into mount provided by Bachmann and fit into place - plug decoder into socket - *test on dcc* - attach decoder out of sight (stick to coach roof or trim floor moulding if hiding it low down and fitting lights) - refit body Agree the 108 is easier the only difference I add 16x25mm speakers and that changes everything. I still like to hardwire so I can add extra weight, better signal etc. Where it gets tricky and the diameter of the wire is an issue is locos like the 58 66 67 B1 etc. Most locos that I do now have duel decoders in them. All mentioned have at least a 16x25 speaker in them which takes up a fair bit of room compared to one single 13mm. The class 58 was the exception I just couldnt manage to get a 16x25 in so I went for 2x 13mm and 1x 16mm diameter. As pointed out no black art to the programming side but it does require a certain amount of skill to squeeze a loksound micro with a 16x25mm fully sealed speaker a TCS FL4 into a Farish 24 and end up with a loco that is heavier and looks excatly like it has never being touched. If it was easy everyone would be doing it. A certain retailer on here made the comment, Hmmm, might have to have a go at that... Have 24s have sound chips Have a milling machine... That was over 6 months ago............maybe they have done it I dont know but again most who add DCC sound knock back n gauge. I would encourage all who want sound in their locos to have a go, you might just surprise yourself. Cheers Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Agreed on the 13mm speakers - especially with the Loksound. It's the main reason I use CT and sugarcube whenever possible as its easier to sort out putting your own sounds together than fighting the quietness of the loksound micro. The 47 I did and the railbus (UK conversion of the old trix one) both have CT+sugarcube and need the volume turning down to avoid annoying the household. The CT cube speaker also works well with the new 8Ohm digitrax but unfortunately the Digitrax is also not so good on volume. I am btw amazed you got a pair of 13mm and a 16mm speaker into the Dapol 58 - that must be a very tight fit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Mc Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hi I am btw amazed you got a pair of 13mm and a 16mm speaker into the Dapol 58 - that must be a very tight fit. You wouldnt believe what I had to do to fit them plus they are all fully sealed which takes up more room. Somewhere on this forum their is a video of it. I didnt post it. I think the sound will surprise you and from memory it was set at about 60% volume. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROADTRAIN1979 Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hi all,I managed to separate the farish suburban mk 1 from the 108 chassis, as the sub has the decoder and speakers in and works great. as for the 108, spares now im affraid ,as it was running like a pig. Even on dc when i tested it yesterday.I made some adjustments but, made it worse than it was :( I do have a brand new 108 2 car. I know the bodies on these are a pain to take off I have ran this in dc.It runs like a dream but, im scared of attacking the body, to plug my dcc sub up to it, as it is a new chassis for my loksound emu. I dont want to damage the chassis, Would someone like digitrains, or howes, hook it up for a fee? I know olivias sound is on the loksound micro but, would that put them off? as it isnt one of their brand. I could have ago but, its too fiddly for me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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