PenrithBeacon Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Fifty years ago I was in the middle of an engineering apprenticeship. Fifty years though, is a long time and have forgotten a good many of the concepts I was instructed in, not to mention the skills acquired during that time. Because of this I have made a discouraging mess of esch of the attempts I have made to make a loco underframe and have given up at each try. I am modelling in P4 because of the improvements in appearance, reliability and running that the standard permits, but the increase in complexity which it brings makes it a challenge. I have chosen to make the HighLevel 14XX 0-4-2T which adds to the problems because of the sophistication which is built into the kit. It’s a bit like a new reader picking Proust! Comments are welcome! Friday, 14th January 1. I break out both side frames from the fret and clean off the pips with a flat swiss file. 2. Using the Comet Models P4 frame assembly jig (Cat No LS61) the frames (Parts 1 & 2) are assembled square and parallel. 3. The stretchers (parts 4 to 8 and 11) are now taken out of the fret and cleaned up. Small bull nosed pliers are used as a hand vice to hold the components while filing 4. The stretchers at the front of the frame (4 & 5) are fouled by the leading frame assembly jig so I concentrate on the stretchers at the hind end for the present. There is a choice to make at this point. Stretchers 6, 7 & 8 can be wider than the rest in order to widen the hind end of the frame. This will permit some side play in the carrying axle, but I choose the standard stretchers and the side play, but not a lot, will go in the coupled wheels where the weight is, in the expectation that this will help running. It might not, we will see. Also there is something I don’t understand about the design at this point. Frames 6, 7 & 11 form a sub-assembly and have a 14BA screw and nut fixing them together. Frame 6 is not to be soldered into the frames and the screw is added after soldering at some later point. There is no way, not the slightest chance, that I will be able to get my fingers in the frames to get the screw in there. I try during the dry run and fail. I leave the job at this point, it’s getting late and I need a break. The photo shows the condition of the project at this point. DM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Saturday, 15th January Having returned from the St Albans Exhibition, Day 2 starts! Job for today is to solder up the basic chassis. Following on from last night I have decided to remove part 6,7 & 11 from the frames and put the 14BA screw & nut on at this point accepting that this may have a knock on effect for later. This done the sub-assembly is returned to the chassis. Now to start soldering. The kit comes ready tinned and this is most useful as it means no hand tinning and I can use rosin cored solder. This solder is (or certainly was, it’s left over from my apprenticeship of fifty years ago, I believe it‘s a threatened species now), intended for electronics use and is most useful for this class of work. I have decided to illustrate the thread by opening a Fotopic account. The links below help 1. Part 8 is soldered first as this fixes the hind most end of the chassis. 2. Parts 6, 7 & 11, with their screw/nut are done next. It’s a bit fiddly, but by holding the chassis in the vice it is possible. On inspection, one of the parts isn’t quite located properly, so the component is pressed down with the scalpel and the joint is broken with the soldering iron. When the solder melts the stretcher is pressed into the location slot and the solder iron removed from the work piece. That does the trick. 3. The hind end now complete, I look to the front. The leading frame assembly jig is removed and this gives space for the two leading stretchers. These are soldered into the chassis. Time for a coffee break and a look at the instructions. http://davidmylchreest868.fotopic.net/p68721835.html http://davidmylchreest868.fotopic.net/p68721837.html 4. The destructions say the next task is to open out the space for the hornblocks/guides. I decide to clean up the solder first and use a mixture of tools, a fairly rough 4†file (it‘s easy to pick any solder out of this tool using a scriber), an instrument screw driver (used as a scraper/chisel) and a cotton bud (used to whype away surplus solder after re-heating with the iron), to achieve a reasonably clean work piece. 5. Next the horn guide cut-outs. This was achieved by using a round swiss file to elongate the axles holes and then work the remaining metal to and fro using a flat swiss file until metal fatigue breaks the metal at the half-etched line. The edges are then cleaned up with a flat swiss file. http://davidmylchreest868.fotopic.net/p68721846.html That’s enough for tonight DM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I shall follow this with interest as I have a High Level 57xx to do and have today had a re-read of the instructions before taking the plunge.Good luck with the build. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Slightly off topic but I prefer the photos to be with the words, not in a separate site. OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Slightly off topic but I prefer the photos to be with the words, not in a separate site. OzzyO. I agree, especially as fotopic tends to take ages to load sometimes. I covered the latter stages of my 14xx construction here: http://rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2571 earlier bits have been lost in the dim past versions of rmweb 1 and 1.5! I never completed it fully as i've not been happy with the inability to drop out the wheelset so i'll be modifying it sometime with the method Kempenfelt has shown on his workbench. A piece of copperclad soldered under the firebox and have another piece screwed onto it btw for the rear two axle pickups, you just miss the beam. As a 14xx isn't a massive priority for S.Wales it keeps slipping back down the workbench. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 I agree, especially as fotopic tends to take ages to load sometimes. I covered the latter stages of my 14xx construction here: http://rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2571 earlier bits have been lost in the dim past versions of rmweb 1 and 1.5! I never completed it fully as i've not been happy with the inability to drop out the wheelset so i'll be modifying it sometime with the method Kempenfelt has shown on his workbench. A piece of copperclad soldered under the firebox and have another piece screwed onto it btw for the rear two axle pickups, you just miss the beam. As a 14xx isn't a massive priority for S.Wales it keeps slipping back down the workbench. OK, I'll post them directly here in future. The reason they are on fotopic is that admin seems to delete photos on threads after a while. I too am interested in dropping out the wheelsets. It will make the quartering and getting the back-to-back right a good deal easier. Without wishing to be rude to HighLevel I think the inability to drop the wheelsets is a weakness in the design. I'm thinking very seriously of cutting off the spring detail and sorting out what to do with it later. I did, last night, have a look at 'Kempenfelt''s workbench and was interested in his approach. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted January 17, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2011 OK, I'll post them directly here in future. The reason they are on fotopic is that admin seems to delete photos on threads after a while. Just to back up PMP's post, the admin team will only delete an image from a topic thread if there is a question about it's copyright, if it's a photo you've taken it will never be removed. They will remove Gallery pics if it is deemed that they are not of sufficient quality and carry a description etc so that they can stand on their own. A common misconception is that you have to post images to the gallery to include them in a topic thread - this happens sometimes on other forums, but on here you can upload directly into the post. Andy Y has often state that he prefers members to post images directly to the forum rather than use an off-forum hosting service. Those of us who access via a corporate network would agree as such sites are often blocked Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metropolitan Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Now to start soldering. The kit comes ready tinned and this is most useful as it means no hand tinning and I can use rosin cored solder......... Hi DM I think you will find the chassis fret is Nickel Silver and not tinned brass. Looks like things are going fine though! Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 ... Those of us who access via a corporate network would agree as such sites are often blocked I'm not surprised they're blocked, when I was working at BT it was a disciplinary offence to look at outside websites, you could be fired for it. It's best to look at 'leisure sites', for want of a better phrase, in your own time. Anyway, as I have already said, images will be posted directly in future, but I'll try to keep their numbers and size to a minimum. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod6 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Thanks to OzzyO, Craigwelsh, PMP and Redgate for comments on image policy. Just to clarify: 1) You don't need to post images to the Gallery first, in fact this practice is frowned upon if it is only for the purposes of populating a topic. 2) Preferred not to use external hosting sites either - links to them come across as a bit impolite when they can and should be posted in topic. 3) Admin do not remove photos from topics except for copyright reasons etc as already stated above. If they do disappear it is usually an external hosting site issue. 4) Put as many photos as you need to illustrate your text effectively. If needed reduce size to 800 pixel max width in Irfanview or similar. Good luck with the build Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 Thanks to Mod6, I've reduced the image size on the camera to 640x480 which will save me having to go through the resizing process. Regards David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Thanks for this thread David. I've never built a chassis before and with the timescales you speak of, we would have been at school at a similar time. I've just ordered a Comet chassis for the 4-6-0 B1 to see if I can improve on the Bachmann split chassis fitted as standard. I hope to start it in a few weeks time as Comet are out of stock until the end of the month. I'll follow this with interest. All looks good to me so far.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
artisan100 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 <Slightly off topic> Oh, Gordon, you're one of the people on the B1 waiting list. Sorry, I should have recognised the voice. What's prompted you and several other people to all want B1's in the past week or so? Has there been an article anywhere that has stimulated you? Anyway, any help you need, just give me a shout. Cheers, Geoff <Back on topic. Sorry.> Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 ....What's prompted you and several other people to all want B1's in the past week or so? Has there been an article anywhere that has stimulated you? .... Probably the threat of the forthcoming Hornby model, so they all want to finish the Replica / Bachmann-based ones before that happens! Wonder if Dave Bradwell is experiencing similar demand for his....? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I too am interested in dropping out the wheelsets. It will make the quartering and getting the back-to-back right a good deal easier. Without wishing to be rude to HighLevel I think the inability to drop the wheelsets is a weakness in the design. I'm thinking very seriously of cutting off the spring detail and sorting out what to do with it later. I did, last night, have a look at 'Kempenfelt''s workbench and was interested in his approach. Hi PB, Looks like you're making a good start there! As a result of a bit of promting i've now tried to explain on my thread how I went about making the keeper plate. What I would suggest is not to cut off the spring detail just yet! The reason for this is because I used this spring detail to postion the brackets for the keeper plate, thus ensuring the springs remain in the same position after they've been severed from the chassis. I don't know if the 14xx follows the same principles as the Jinty, but if it does then it will have an etch that is folder over and soldered to the back of the spring to increase the spring relief. I used these overlays to assist in the positioning of the keeper plate supports. A further close up of my approach may be neccessary so i'll see what I can do tonight. A few things to bear in mind before you start hacking about or going to far with the soldering iron! Decide where are you going to locate the keeper plate supports, will this require any mods to the frame stretchers? Decide if you are going to retain the compensating beam of go for CSB. If the former then this may affect the location of the keeper plate supports. I compromised my brackets by having to cut some of them through for the compensating beam. CSB's or potentialy a different form of keeper plate could/would have avoided this being an issue. I currently have 7 (soon to be 8) separate bracket supports. With a bit more thought I may have been able to cut this down to 3. Decide what pick-up arrangement you are going to use. I like the buss bar arangement as I can easily remove the whole assembly from the chassis with minimal effort. I did however have to modify some of the strecthers to hide the buss bars behind the frame profile, this was a bit awkward once they were soldered between the frames. Hope this helps! I'll be keeping an eye on this one for progress! A good positive start, besides it's always interesting to see how someone else tackles a similar chassis! Good Luck and Best Wishes Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 Thanks for the advice Paul. Non-too-soon because I was going to cut them off this evening! As far as compensation is concerned, I'm going to use the beams provided in the kit, but I do have CSB in mind for the future and I have bought the new HighLevel drill jig in anticipation. I think that if the modeller decides to go the CSB route, as I will for the next chassis, they will need to do dry runs on the position of the stretchers and the CSB spring because the stretchers will almost certainly need to be notched or drilled to suit the position of the wire. It is also possible that the position of the stretchers themselves might be an issue if they clash with the anchors for the wire. A few compromises with the prototype might be needed. I have most definitely decided against the coil spring route to chassis compensation. I bought the Alan Gibson hornblock system and I could barely see the springs they were so small! They looked like pencil leads on the workbench. The work needed to fit those is far too fine for me, so I'm going to pass on that one. Regards David Mylchreest Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 David, Sounds like you're in a very similar position to me, the Jinty being my first chassis and very much one of experimentation and learning of the ropes! I whole heartedly agree with you on the coil spring route! This biggest problem with this method I believe however is the inconsistency of the springs themselves! CSB however I have been very impressed with, I've no current experience of fitting them to a loco chassis yet, that bit of fun's being saved till the next loco! Best Wishes Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 ...the stretchers will almost certainly need to be notched or drilled to suit the position of the wire Quite so, but just to note that Chris Gibbon's new Dean goods chassis has appropriate apertures for a CSB application. He's strenuously resisting adopting keeper-plate designs though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 Monday, 17 January 2011 So, session three starts! Over the last two days it has become clear that I need to do two things. One is to enable the wheel/axle/hornblock sub-assemblies to be dropped out of the chassis (and by inference to be dropped in) and secondly to correct an error which crept in late on Saturday evening. Taking these in order. I can arrange that the wheel sub-assemblies can be dropped in and out of the frames simply by removing the springs, but the springs are visually an important part of the chassis therefore it’s equally important that they are restored at some point. Reading ‘Kempenfelts P4 Workbench’ http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/28200-kempenfelts-p4-workbench/ Post #1 on Sunday gave me an idea of how this can be done and I shall be attempting to implement this concept later in the project. The second, however, is more difficult. It is one of the clichés of P4 chassis construction that the rectangular openings for the hornguides have to be done at the same time. You can see this in many destruction leaflets written on the topic and in my view it is wrong and has been the cause of my failure, so far, to produce a P4 chassis. The reason for this is that if you open up all the hornblock guides at the same time you lose your datum. The Comet Models frame assembly jigs are very important, to my mind, in the production of a chassis. They enable the modeller to have the chassis square and parallel, but also, even more importantly, they enable the axles to be square and parallel too. No matter how much the axles move up and down relative to each other, they must be square to the frames and parallel to each other. Therefore, in my view, one at least one of the axles must be left in an uncompensated condition (this is the datum) until all the others are referenced to it by soldering (or otherwise fixing) the hornguides to the frames. Then these fixed hornguides become the datum (essentially an off-set datum) which will then permit the original datum axle hole to be opened out to receive the hornguides. The London Road Models Alignment Jig was going to be the tool I was going to use to effect this, however, on Saturday night I had a senior moment and fell into the trap I was hoping to avoid when I opened out all hornguides at the same time as per the HighLevel instruction leaflet. All is not lost however. In his book (Locomotive Kit Chassis Construction, OPC 1993), Iain Rice, on pp38, explains his method of erecting a chassis and I am going to use this concept to try to recover from my mistake. Basically it involves aligning the chassis on a grid with the chassis square to an extended axle. I’m going to use a cutting mat (which has a grid printed on it), a few other tools and blu-tack to effect a correction. When this is complete I think I will have my datum back again. Fingers crossed. It’s too late now to start modelling, and in any case I’m a bit befuddled with beer, so Tuesday night, all being well, will be our next Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Tuesday, 18th January 2011 In response to Paul Kempenfelt’s earlier post I’m not going to remove the axle spring detail yet. Leave it till later. However I do need to resolve the datum issue. The plan for tonight:- 1. Fold up four HighLevel hornguides and clean the fixing surfaces up with fibreglass brush. 2. Clean up the area around the hornguide cut-outs, again with fibreglass brush. 3. Set up the work piece as per Iain Rice’s photo in his book. 4. Secure everything with blu-tack to stop the house of cards falling down 5. Using a blob of super glue on the end of a piece of wire, glue the driving axle hornguides to the frames 6. Remove the frames from the cutting mat and hold them in the vice upside down. 7. Using the London Road Models Alignment Jig, position the coupled axle hornguides and then glue them into position too. 8. Clean up the mess from the blu-tack. In fact I got as far as 2! The HighLevel hornguides design is excellent, really good. I assembled two of the four required for the project and with a bit fitting with a swiss file they proved to be good pieces of kit. I attempted, for the second time in as many projects, to set up as per Iain Rice but, for the second time I was defeated. This method of ensuring square and parallel axles doesn’t work for me and the thinking cap is going to have to go on again. If anybody has any advice, I’d be pleased to hear from them. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I think that if the modeller decides to go the CSB route, as I will for the next chassis, they will need to do dry runs on the position of the stretchers and the CSB spring because the stretchers will almost certainly need to be notched or drilled to suit the position of the wire. It is also possible that the position of the stretchers themselves might be an issue if they clash with the anchors for the wire. Or in my case building the 4MT kit I tweaked the location of the anchor points so that one of the frame stretchers became the anchor point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Why not just tack solder them in place rather than using superglue to hold them temporarily? You'll have some awful fumes around when you come to solder the superglued joints. Are you aligning the hornblocks with small bits of wire through the top so they just rotate on an axis? This is the best way for the first two along with the long rod. Don't bother with a datum height here tbh, just use the bottom of the slots as it sits on the table. You'll find fitting light springs between the axleboxes to hold them in place works wonders with the LRM jigs. The ultimate way of setting up is this: http://www.avonsideworks.com/ . If I had one i'd have used it to build the frames too to ensure they were square before cutting out the hornguides. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Thank you for your post, Craig Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
52A Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Hi David, I 'll second Craig's comment about the superglue - leave that out of the equation. It'll burn when you heat the parts and - toxic fumes aside- will prevent you from getting as good joint. With regards to datums, Hole 'H' in the diagrams is the datum. You use a small length of 0.4 wire to register the 1st hornblock etch, then jig the other axle)s) from that... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 Thanks to '52A' and Craig for their replies. I hadn't thought about the significance of the datum holes, thanks for that. I'm going to use them by pushing a length of wire through the datum holes and through each of the hornguides, so suspending the hornguides from the wire. I'm also going to pick up on Craig's mention of using a spring, by which I take to mean have a spring around the axle during the setting up process to push the hornguides into the holes in the side frames. This spring can be made by wrapping wire around 0".125 rod and then soldering a 4BA washer at each end. There is however, a fly in the ointment. The hornguides are 5.5mm and the holes in the frames are 6.0mm. This, I understand, is entirely normal and standard ... but ... if the hornguide is cross-cornered, as it inevitably will be, then the axle will be acting on an inclined plane rather than doing what it ought to do which is to rise and fall vertically. I shall try to overcome this by soldering a strip of ten thou flat brass on the outside of the horn-cheeks. I take the point about the super glue. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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