LNWR lives on Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Hi I am after a laymans (Idiots) guide as to the difference between insulfrog and electrofrog points as I am strugling to find something basic and descriptive. Whilst I can get on ok with normal electrics I have always struggled to get my head around electronics. To give an idea of the planed use for points on the layout in the process of being designed there will be several crossovers and also runs of points in succession so I need to get an understanding now of wether insul or electro will be better for me before purchase starts. Intent is to use Peco code 100 as I have older locos which otherwise would require re-wheeling to clear the 3 foot curves required at each end to access the fiddle yard. Please Help! Thank you David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2011 Basically, the insulfrog points give you an undesirable gap in the supply of power over the plastic frog. This can make life difficult with smaller locos, or those which don't pick up on many wheels. Steam locos tend to suffer more. Live-frog points have a constant supply of electricity to the point frog - but it needs switching in order to be electrically correct when the points are moved from normal to reverse position. If you envisage lots of slow-speed shunting and prototypical speeds in and about station limits, then live-frog is better, without a doubt. Peco provide pretty fair instructions on how to make the most of the live-frog, but you do need to do extra work, which isn't really necessary with insulfrog. EDIT This isn't in any way about electronics. This is just about DC positive and negative polarities being observed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR lives on Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 So as once I emerge from a tunnel at either end I will be into station limits, and there will be lots of slow movement/shunting around the goods and engine sheds electro frog will be the way to go, especially as the older locos (all steam) dont have many pick ups. in terms of switching then if you have a run of points I would assume you have to switch the one you are on and then the others subsequently to maintain the polarity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Insulfrog - plonk it down and it'll go, but you may have stalling. Electrofrog - plonk it down and you'll have to wire up extra switched (on point motor or manual) to get it to go, but it'll have much less stalling. Depends on the point motor whether they already have integral switches. You may be able to buy accessory switches or make them yourself by buying microswitches. In any case the wiring's going to be more complex as you're taking the electrical switch out of the responsibility of the manufactured point and into your own hands. From what you're describing I feel that Electrofrog is the way to go. The wirings not hard. You just need to attend to the detail. If you can't solder, you'll learn pretty quick. [Edit] Here's a diagram for the difference between Insulfrog and Electrofrog. And for DCC or DC there's no difference in the switching arrangements, only in the type of go-juice supplied to the track. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2011 So as once I emerge from a tunnel at either end I will be into station limits, and there will be lots of slow movement/shunting around the goods and engine sheds electro frog will be the way to go, especially as the older locos (all steam) dont have many pick ups. in terms of switching then if you have a run of points I would assume you have to switch the one you are on and then the others subsequently to maintain the polarity. Every time you reverse each pair of points, the polarity of the frog needs to change, also. If you are using motored points, this can help, as some makes of motor e.g. Tortoise come with built-in contacts to make it easy, although you still have to do the wiring. Peco motors can be fitted with a dedicated switch to do the same job, but not everyone likes them, although they are relatively affordable by comparison with some makes. I have both the types mentioned, and they work ok for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR lives on Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 from the advice given electro seems to be the way to go to give better running and well worth the extra work requiried. In terms of wring from what you are saying where i have points in sequence the best thing I can do is be systematic in the approach to wiring them up. Thank you for your responses gents Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I'm building my own track, which in wiring terms is electrofrog. And they're wire in tube/bicycle spoke/crank/string (delete as appropriate) controlled from a lever frame. Somewhere close to the turnout itself is a 70p microswitch which does the job. this approach is not without its headaches (like this is the fifth rebuild of the test area) but is (allegedly) less costly than usng point morors. And it improves the extent of the vocabulary of invective Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR lives on Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 lol from my time on building sites my vocab is already bad enough Purchase of points and a test run may be in order to see how it works and get a proper understanding of the wiring involved, I tend to understand things alot better with a picture/diagram/the actual item at hand to look at Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium mezzoman253 Posted January 23, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 23, 2011 Hello Dave, Have a browse of this site http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/ it's very informative with lots of useful diagrams. I think the owner is a member on here too. HTH Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted January 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2011 Easy way to see this is to look at a bit of track with a turnout (it could be real or model) one rail will be near to you than the other where the turnout is the near one will have a point blade which then crosses over the further one at the frog. If the two rails are used as the feed and return they would short at the frog. Insulfrog uses a bit of plastic at the frog to stop the rails making contact. Electrog frog has gaps to isolate the frog which then needs to be switched. The insulfrog needs a gap large enough to stop wheels making contact between the two different polarity rails. This is a dead spot and can cause stalling at low speeds. DCC has also shown that there can be momentary shorts which the DCC system detects and can shut down. DC controllers may notice the short but as the wheels roll on restore power. Switching the electrofrog needs to be linked to the point mechanism whether mechanical linkage or point motor. Some points have an integral switch, some use the blade contact as the switch (not the most reliable way) others (especially handmade) reguire a switch to be added either in the point motor or the linkage. Tortoise point motors are expensive but they are very easy to set up and reliable I choose them but I don't have that many points. Peco point motors don't have a switch as Peco points rely on blade contact. Although Peco have a switch that fits on to them. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Peco make a switch but many of us have found it unreliable. Microswitches can be bought from Maplin or Rapid for less, but they require more careful mounting. Seep motors are reasonably priced. You can buy one with an internal microswitch for about 40p more than the standard one. As briefly mentioned earlier, you don't actually need switched at all, relying instead on the point blade to maintain electrical contact. These tend to give problems when they become dirty. I don't think I've seen this mentioned on this thread yet & it is very important: If using Electrofrog, you must use isolating rail joiners at the frog end of the point then re-feed the switched section (unless you only have a dead siding). If you don't then you will get a short-circuit If it sounds a little daunting, please don't be put off until you've tried it. It is really not that bad. I see you have already considered building a small test track. That's definitely a very good idea & should provide the answer to this & maybe some more questions you have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 .....Tortoise point motors are expensive but they are very easy to set up and reliable I choose them but I don't have that many points. Peco point motors don't have a switch as Peco points rely on blade contact. Although Peco have a switch that fits on to them. Note that Tortoise motors cost around £13 to £14 each (less than £10 each imported). It has a reliable built-in twin switch. The similar, but smaller (and arguably better built) Cobalt motor costs approx. £16 and has similar facilities. The Peco switch machine is £5.50 or £6.50 (for the better W version) and a switch will be £3 for a single, or £7 for a twin. This puts them at between £8.50 and £13.50 each, but you may have to add the cost of a CDU to that (e.g. £12 - £14). A CDU will cover several points. (example prices taken from Kernow MRC) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Note that Tortoise motors cost around £13 to £14 each (less than £10 each imported). It has a reliable built-in twin switch. The similar, but smaller (and arguably better built) Cobalt motor costs approx. £16 and has similar facilities. The Peco switch machine is £5.50 or £6.50 (for the better W version) and a switch will be £3 for a single, or £7 for a twin. This puts them at between £8.50 and £13.50 each, but you may have to add the cost of a CDU to that (e.g. £12 - £14). A CDU will cover several points. (example prices taken from Kernow MRC) I use the Seep PM1 motors (available from Gaugemaster and others) which have the frog polarity change-over facility already built into them and at around £4.50 each work out a lot cheaper that a Peco motor plus accessory switch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I just lay the electrofrog points with the usual gaps to prevent electrical feedback to the frog and thats it. No special switches required ....juts keep the switchblades clean where they contact the outer rails to that they pass electricity okay. Electrofrog diamonds and slips are more demanding and I'd recommend Insulfrog for these things instead. As for locos stalling on the insulated bits, carefull pinning down can overcome this except with short wheelbase 0-4-0 tank locos. Well, thats my experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Langley Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 What are Seep motors (with the polarity change switch) like on a DCC system? Are they easy to wire up? And judgeing what some have said on here they work better than the Peco motors? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted January 24, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 24, 2011 I just lay the electrofrog points with the usual gaps to prevent electrical feedback to the frog and thats it. No special switches required ....juts keep the switchblades clean where they contact the outer rails to that they pass electricity okay. Electrofrog diamonds and slips are more demanding and I'd recommend Insulfrog for these things instead. As for locos stalling on the insulated bits, carefull pinning down can overcome this except with short wheelbase 0-4-0 tank locos. Well, thats my experience. Pretty much mine as well. We've been over this before, but my argument is that while advocating switching of the frogs is a good idea from a standpoint of absolute reliability, it's not all that necessary in the context of a home layout where the switchblades can be cleaned easily enough. For someone starting out in using Peco track, it's an additional complication which then opens up all sorts of other cans of worms - which switches to use, which wiring scheme, etc, whether to further modify the points etc. It might be different in N, but I've operated 00 home layouts for years without any kind of additional switching, largely problem-free. I've also exhibited Cogreip eight times with only one point giving a problem for a few hours on one day, which was fixed with a bit of cleaning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Insulfrog - plonk it down and it'll go, but you may have stalling. Electrofrog - plonk it down and you'll have to wire up extra switched (on point motor or manual) to get it to go That rather depends whose pointwork you buy. Peco you have to do all the traditional stuff but a lot of other vendors do it right out of the box including handling power switching beyond the frog (eg Kato, Tomix, Fleischmann) Even in the Peco case you just have to isolate it correctly and feed from the right places, although frog power is certainly not a bad idea on an exhibition standard layout. Crossovers are easy if using DCC - just wire the centre of the electrofrog crossover to an auto-reverser. Wiring Peco scissors on the other hand ought to be a GCSE course Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR lives on Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 Gents, thanks for the replies. some interesting points made Off the top of my head (The plan is home in Wales and I am in Kettering working) there is at least a dozen points on the main drag of which I intend to motorise, and I have stashed h+m SM3 point motors picked up cheap, but as the Seep Motors have the inbuilt switching they may be a better bet for me for simplicity as I would guess it is just a case then of providing power supply to them? Pete, It is a little daunting although the advice given is making me think purchase of points and a test bed is definetly the way to go and try it out and work out the issues involved. There is a double slip involved which has two points involved which will ceratinly make life interesting in regards to this area of wiring. Test bed here I come Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I have stashed h+m SM3 point motors picked up cheap, but as the Seep Motors have the inbuilt switching they may be a better bet for me for simplicity as I would guess it is just a case then of providing power supply to them? The H&M motors also have inbuilt switches, although if you bought them second hand you will need to check that they are working and maybe clean them up. The wiring of H&M or SEEP is identical, in both cases the power to operate the motor and the wiring to switch the frog are independent, the frog wiring doesn't just happen Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR lives on Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 The H&M motors also have inbuilt switches, although if you bought them second hand you will need to check that they are working and maybe clean them up. The wiring of H&M or SEEP is identical, in both cases the power to operate the motor and the wiring to switch the frog are independent, the frog wiring doesn't just happen Regards Keith The bulk of the units I have are second hand but new in box so hopefully they should be fine At this point I am definetly thinking the best way forward is to get some points and get them laid out on a test board so that I can see it in action, also to unpack a point motor and have a look at the included instructions, only by getting stuck in am I going to understand how things work and the problems I am going to face Thank you to everyone who has replied, at least now I feel a bit less daunted about tackling the wiring which was my biggest worry about constructing a layout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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