Michael Delamar Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 until I find the enthusiasm to flat-down (or strip) the orange-peel paint job and start again! flatten it with t-cut. goes to see if he can find any decent pics of green 504's Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucky Duck Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 Cheers but using t-cut is what made me decide to shelve it for the moment because it was going through to the primer so quickly in places that I thought there must be another solution without needing a re-paint. I don't think there is, so I'll probably resume with it when I've finished my brake van and mineral wagons. As for any green 504 pics… any would be most welcome, thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Hi jwealleans, according to Paul Bartlett's website there were numerous detail changes on the 1/506 diagram. In his photos some vans indeed have a third grab handle, others two and some have none at all but I've no idea if all vans had three handles originally and over the course of time some vans have had them removed. I would be wary making too many assumptions from Paul's pics Ryan, as you say most of them are late period. I'm not sure about which if any vans had three grabs, but they were generally lost from the mid 70s onwards, often on replanking (which is often noticeable because the new boards are standard width). As ever though there'll be exceptions, some LNER pattern vans show evidence of replanking by the late 60s In answer to your earlier queries, no reason why a fitted or piped van wouldnt be used on an unfitted train, there were plenty of them about. The Bachy body does come off, the tricky bit is the various handrails but if you're replacing them anyway, you can be a bit rough about it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 BTW just seen the T-cut comment - try a small piece of wet and dry paper, used lightly and very wet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 in between thin coats a ordinary green dry scouring pad will flatten it and help the second coat grab to it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted July 13, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 13, 2011 a couple of green ones (one for xerces fobe perhaps?) slightly OT, but if you ever fancy a 'transition' one: incidentally, i notice you haven't done the small contraption on the right-hand front end yet, under the driver's window. i'm not sure if it's a jumper socket of some sort? i think only the 504s have this. glad to see you're keeping modelling after your glitch with the 504. hopefully you'll be back to it soon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard of the Moor Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Now the thickness of the glazing really stands out and I'm not happy with that – so will definitely take the body apart to investigate a solution on the next one. If you are looking at the glazing of the cab doors, these are moulded from clear plastic. I guess you could carefully fret out the windows and then re-glaze with thinner material. Alternatively, you could ask if someone has a set of doors spare from a Dave Bradwell underframe kit The only disadvantage of Dave's doors is that you will need to add the door furniture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucky Duck Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 I would be wary making too many assumptions from Paul's pics Ryan, as you say most of them are late period. I'm not sure about which if any vans had three grabs, but they were generally lost from the mid 70s onwards, often on replanking (which is often noticeable because the new boards are standard width). As ever though there'll be exceptions, some LNER pattern vans show evidence of replanking by the late 60s Quite! I was starting to get a bit confused. There seems to be so many variants even within a single diagram that went on to be ravaged by time, I've come to the conclusion that I just need to find a suitable prototype from 1963 – or as near as – and copy that… hence holding off with the numbering and final detailing for the time being. Thanks Ian for confirming my suspicions. In answer to your earlier queries, no reason why a fitted or piped van wouldnt be used on an unfitted train, there were plenty of them about. The Bachy body does come off, the tricky bit is the various handrails but if you're replacing them anyway, you can be a bit rough about it Good news, that gives me more options. I guess I just wasn't brave enough trying to remove the body after I'd pinged-off the handrails… it just felt something major was going to break! BTW just seen the T-cut comment - try a small piece of wet and dry paper, used lightly and very wet in between thin coats a ordinary green dry scouring pad will flatten it and help the second coat grab to it Cheers for the flatting tips guys… I guess my initial mistake was trying to spray it all at once… so three coats before the first one had even thought about drying! Impatient? Me? Never! a couple of green ones http://www.flickr.co...N08/3176666814/ (one for xerces fobe perhaps?) http://www.flickr.co...n/pool-class504 slightly OT, but if you ever fancy a 'transition' one: http://www.flickr.co...57625920861309/ incidentally, i notice you haven't done the small contraption on the right-hand front end yet, under the driver's window. i'm not sure if it's a jumper socket of some sort? i think only the 504s have this. glad to see you're keeping modelling after your glitch with the 504. hopefully you'll be back to it soon Thanks for those links and comments keefer. I have seen some of those pics before but certainly not all of them. And about the missing 'contraption', you're right and I don't know the name of this either but I'm working on the best method of representing it as I can't find a ready-made part that matches. In any case, it can be added after the paint job so I'm in no rush to sort it. I really need a few clear days to continue the 504 and I'm not sure when I'm going to manage that. At the moment I'm literally snatching an hour's modelling here and there. If you are looking at the glazing of the cab doors, these are moulded from clear plastic. I guess you could carefully fret out the windows and then re-glaze with thinner material. Alternatively, you could ask if someone has a set of doors spare from a Dave Bradwell underframe kit The only disadvantage of Dave's doors is that you will need to add the door furniture. Hi Wizard. Re-glazing the windows with thinner material is an option I'd have done if I'd managed to remove the body before replacing the handrails. No chance now of course but as I've been assured that the body is removable, that's a probability for the next one. Thanks for suggesting another option I never considered… the Dave Bradwell route sounds OK to me and I wouldn't mind adding the door furniture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 can just see a green 504 here http://www.railphotoprints.co.uk/index/detail/10652/42644-Y-Bury-031266-CW762.jpg.html and some blue ones.. http://www.railphotoprints.co.uk/index/gallery/EMUs/BuryGlossop Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 A wave of mild depression rolled over me when I peeled the masking tape from the 504. What looked a superb gloss airbrushed finish whilst I was spraying turned out to be an orange-peely mess when dry and that wave turned into a tsunami when I examined those horrid close-up photos above. I'm undecided what to do about the 504 now… flat it down and start again would be the obvious plan but the door hinges and stops are in place, so that's going to be a real pain in the @rse that I really don't feel like tackling right now. So, into the cupboard it has gone until I can bear to face it again. I've struggled to get a consistent run of modelling this year and this thread hasn't exactly been bursting at the seams with feedback lately (but my appreciation goes to those who have commented and helped), so to avoid the risk of it sinking into oblivion once again – well, that's the hope – I've decided to merge it with my other stock modelling projects… starting with some 16T mineral wagons. Noooooooooh! If you put this model into a cupboard, you will simply forget about it, so that when you do come across it in the cupboard and take it out, you will still have the same dilemma and the same problem and will be no nearer a decision as to how to proceed. If you don't feel like re-doing the paint job just at the moment, or can't work out what went wrong and how to fix it, at least leave the model in view. That way your mind will continue to mull over possible approaches, possible solutions while you get on with something else. Might also be worth trying out the paint job or practising using T-cut, on a piece of scrap or an old piece of etching just to experiment until you get the result you want. Believe me I speak from experience; many of the things I've done on Hessle Haven didn't work first time, sometimes not second time and, several times, not third, fourth or fifth time. But persevere, finish the job and the sense of achievement will be well worth the effort. Well, it works for me, might work for you. Cheers and regards Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 That brake van looks superb. I may well be tempted to try something similar on my own although modelling the waverley Route means I could be busy with them for quite some time! I agree with Mike about the 504. I have seen a lot worse, so don't worry. Just get stuck into it with the T-Cut. Yes, it demands a fair old bit of elbow grease but it will give you a much smoother finish and be the perfect foundation for decalling. I'm attaching a photo of one of my A3s which started off as a heavily weathered model done (in fairness well) by someone else. I needed a cleanish loco though which meant abrading the finish to within an inch of its life. However, when all the nasty work was done, I set about with T-Cut and a couple of coats of Kleer, ending up with this finish which has had light weathering and an overhead squirt of matt varnish applied! Not wishing to bang my own drum, but I wanted you to show what can be accomplished from an uneven surface finish. It's time to get the 504 out again! Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I'll second the above too! And fair play to you for having the nerves to show the lows as well as the highs. There's many on here who would gloss over the low points I'm sure. Keep at it. The 504 looks great to me, so get it fettled and it'll be fine. Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucky Duck Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 Great support and encouragement from all of you, thank you. I just re-read my whinge in mikemeg's quote and flippin'eck, I do sound a bit melodramatic!… so apologies for that but at the time, as Rowley Birkin would say, "I'm afraid I was very, very drunk!" In the grand scheme of things a modelling mishap is mere chicken-feed. Well Mike, the 504 didn't actually go back into the cupboard… it is, for the time being, sitting on the 'display' shelf with other complete/ in-progress stuff, as you can see. However, preparing for a house move in the near future means I've no choice but to shelve it soon anyway. Dave, the finish on your A3 – my favourite loco, by the way and I must buy one – does look rather nice and I know that eventually, once I've finished the 504 it will be all the more satisfying to have come through a bit of a rough patch and persevered with it! Penguin, "get it fettled" is spot-on. When I've completed 'the move' it shall be the first item back on the workbench! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Great support and encouragement from all of you, thank you. I just re-read my whinge in mikemeg's quote and flippin'eck, I do sound a bit melodramatic!… so apologies for that but at the time, as Rowley Birkin would say, "I'm afraid I was very, very drunk!" In the grand scheme of things a modelling mishap is mere chicken-feed. Well Mike, the 504 didn't actually go back into the cupboard… it is, for the time being, sitting on the 'display' shelf with other complete/ in-progress stuff, as you can see. However, preparing for a house move in the near future means I've no choice but to shelve it soon anyway. Dave, the finish on your A3 – my favourite loco, by the way and I must buy one – does look rather nice and I know that eventually, once I've finished the 504 it will be all the more satisfying to have come through a bit of a rough patch and persevered with it! Penguin, "get it fettled" is spot-on. When I've completed 'the move' it shall be the first item back on the workbench! Good man! Many of the posts on here are simply comments on models - mostly favourable - but simply comments. Some posts though do contain sound advice, either technical advice, prototype advice or, occasionally, motivational advice. Your 504 is made beautifully; too well to be stuck away in the cupboard. So you wanted feedback, well you've got feedback and, if I were you, I'd just follow Penguin's advice - once the house move is completed - and re-do the paint job to match the quality of the build. RMWeb can be a wonderful motivator, and Penguin is one of the best at motivating. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 finding it quite hard to find decent colour shots of the 504's in green, nothing like seeing some new shots to perk up the enthuisasm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 what where they known as pre tops? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 heres some that may be useful if you havent already seen them, still cant find any colour shots of them in service whilst green edit, its not liking direct linking. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 http://www.railphoto...g=0720010358000 http://www.railphotoarchive.org/rpc_zoom.php?img=0629020885000 http://www.railphotoarchive.org/rpc_zoom.php?img=0720020538000 http://www.railphotoarchive.org/rpc_zoom.php?img=0478020476000 http://www.railphotoarchive.org/rpc_zoom.php?img=0354020264000 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucky Duck Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 Excellent find there Mike, cheers… I've only seen the b/w one before. No idea what they were known as, pre-Tops. In fact I know very little about these units other than a couple of articles in Modern Tramways magazine – and don't think there's even a book dedicated to the 504. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 the bury to heywood scenes from the past book has some nice black and white shots but nothing of close up of modelable value. wonder what archive footage there is of them in green? I know panarail do a video of theyre last days, but Im wondering is there anything like a b&r video on them as they seem to have plenty of shots of Manchester victoria in the steam era, the only glimpse ive seen is on the b&r dvd farewell to steam 1968 which I sent you the screengrabs of where one arrives in the background at Victoria. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 To me, the shape of the front screens is wrong – top and bottom should beparallel. In the pic below I started modifying the left-hand one but I'm still not sure it's right yet… now it looks to have too much of a downward slope! Casting my memory back, as best I can to the days when I used to see 504s and 304s regularly and looking at the prototype pics I'm pretty sure that those windows should be square and the apparent angles in the front view are just a result of the panel that holds the windows being angled back and sideways. If you make the windows square in the plane of the panel I think you will find the resultin slope when viewed directly from the front will look correct. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 stumped on 504 shots, best I can do which may help with colours is this. http://www.railphotoprints.co.uk/index/detail/8478/015-Y-Crewe-1965-RPRB718.jpg.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucky Duck Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 Casting my memory back, as best I can to the days when I used to see 504s and 304s regularly and looking at the prototype pics I'm pretty sure that those windows should be square and the apparent angles in the front view are just a result of the panel that holds the windows being angled back and sideways. If you make the windows square in the plane of the panel I think you will find the resultin slope when viewed directly from the front will look correct. Regards Keith Interesting thought Keith and worth an experiment in plasticard at some point as I'm toying with the idea of scratch-buillding the ends for the next one. stumped on 504 shots, best I can do which may help with colours is this. http://www.railphoto...PRB718.jpg.html Mike, your research knows no bounds… appreciate your efforts. That one is close enough to a 504 for good reference. Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 That one is close enough to a 504 for good reference. Indeed they were that colour.Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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